Interesting that Kenku mimicry is removed. I've always been put off by the race solely because of the language barrier and annoyance that may come from it, so I might be tempted to pick one up.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
I love the idea of floating ASI, and have been using it since Tasha's came out. It opens up a multitude of new character creation options like my goblin paladin. What's not to like?
I'm disappointed that they didn't redo humans. With the ability to spread your ASIs to three different skills for any race, the standard human had their main bonus made redundant for most situations. If you need 4 skills or it can be useful, but even then...I'm not sure it's worth losing all other abilities. It would have been good to see a rework so that they get something that made them worthwhile.
I'm also ambivalent about sunlight sensitivity/getting rid of negatives. I like the idea that you can make a race OP and then temper it with a negative. On the other hand, that can make things a bit unbalanced.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's 100% going to be treated as errata, and that's honestly the worst part so far (what happens when you're digital and don't actually own the content you bought) because now we're going to lose all the current content.
While people do tend to buy what they like, industry knows customers will still buy and consume the stuff they gripe about. xP
Not errata, it would be treated as updates, and are we sure 100%. DnD Beyond has officially said nothing about this book unless something came out today.
I think that it will be treated the same way that the Dragonborn from Fizban's was treated and won't replace the old with the new. Whether or not that is good or bad is debatable, but there is a precedent.
The only thing here that really disappoints me much is that they seem to be moving away from the idea of subraces altogether? I like related peoples being bound together by that mechanical organization, Idunno.
The reason people don't like the floating ASI option in the first place is because it removes something that made races more distinct. In previous editions each race (aside from human and half-elf) not only had racial ability bonuses but also penalties to other abilities. So half-orc wizards or dwarven sorcerers would be at a disadvantage. Elves had a bonus to dexterity and a penalty to constitution to emphasize that they are agile and graceful at the cost of not being as physically tough as most other races. They already ditched the penalties, and now that flavor of some races being better at some things than others is being officially removed so that, on average, a dwarves are just as agile as elves and halflings are just as strong as goliaths. And gnomes are just as fast as creatures that have legs that are literally longer than they are tall. The argument is that unique flavor is being removed in favor of "options" that mean you can make a halfling that runs like an Olympic sprinter and can beat most goliaths in an arm wrestling match if somebody wants a character that can statistically lift roughly ten times their own body weight at level one (assuming it's not determined that encumbrance is another unnecessary option that should just be removed entirely). Add to that numerous races like genasi getting the "option" of what size they are and you begin to wonder how long (*cough*5.5*cough*) until we see something that explicitly says gnomes can range from two and a half to six and a half feet tall, just the same as goliaths.
And the difference between "errata" and "update" is nonexistent. Errata a subset of update by definition, one that changes previously official rules.
Yes, "the published rules are just guidelines and can be changed by the DM as they see fit." That has always been the case. What irritates me, and I suspect many others, is that it feels like WotC is moving away from "here are rules and lore that you can tweak as needed" to "Here are some vague concepts attached to words and you can make up your own rules for them. We aren't going to even suggest any specific and unique characteristics because we're giving you all sorts of options! That's content, folks, not just us being lazy writers!" Because if you ascribe to the "I don't need somebody else to tell me how to run my game" school of thought, then I ask why are you buying the books from them in the first place? Is it really hard to come up with a name for a fantasy race that you're just going to come up with rules and stats for on your own anyways that it's worth forty or fifty bucks to you? At the rate they're going they might as well just announce that the next revision/edition/whatever will just be a bunch of fantasy art books, and replace everybody responsible for creating lore with a single unpaid intern who goes through previous editions compiling names of races, items, spells, etc into a one big list as an appendix to mix and match with the pretty pictures.
The reason people don't like the floating ASI option in the first place is because it removes something that made races more distinct. In previous editions each race (aside from human and half-elf) not only had racial ability bonuses but also penalties to other abilities. So half-orc wizards or dwarven sorcerers would be at a disadvantage. Elves had a bonus to dexterity and a penalty to constitution to emphasize that they are agile and graceful at the cost of not being as physically tough as most other races. They already ditched the penalties, and now that flavor of some races being better at some things than others is being officially removed so that, on average, a dwarves are just as agile as elves and halflings are just as strong as goliaths. And gnomes are just as fast as creatures that have legs that are literally longer than they are tall. The argument is that unique flavor is being removed in favor of "options" that mean you can make a halfling that runs like an Olympic sprinter and can beat most goliaths in an arm wrestling match if somebody wants a character that can statistically lift roughly ten times their own body weight at level one (assuming it's not determined that encumbrance is another unnecessary option that should just be removed entirely). Add to that numerous races like genasi getting the "option" of what size they are and you begin to wonder how long (*cough*5.5*cough*) until we see something that explicitly says gnomes can range from two and a half to six and a half feet tall, just the same as goliaths.
And the difference between "errata" and "update" is nonexistent. Errata a subset of update by definition, one that changes previously official rules.
Yes, "the published rules are just guidelines and can be changed by the DM as they see fit." That has always been the case. What irritates me, and I suspect many others, is that it feels like WotC is moving away from "here are rules and lore that you can tweak as needed" to "Here are some vague concepts attached to words and you can make up your own rules for them. We aren't going to even suggest any specific and unique characteristics because we're giving you all sorts of options! That's content, folks, not just us being lazy writers!" Because if you ascribe to the "I don't need somebody else to tell me how to run my game" school of thought, then I ask why are you buying the books from them in the first place? Is it really hard to come up with a name for a fantasy race that you're just going to come up with rules and stats for on your own anyways that it's worth forty or fifty bucks to you? At the rate they're going they might as well just announce that the next revision/edition/whatever will just be a bunch of fantasy art books, and replace everybody responsible for creating lore with a single unpaid intern who goes through previous editions compiling names of races, items, spells, etc into a one big list as an appendix to mix and match with the pretty pictures.
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
DNDB said they were gonna address how they were handling the book sometime after the new year but now were like 2 weeks away from the release, and no pre-order option.
I'm sure this release has kinda sent their team scrambling to figure out how they're gonna handle this but come on.
DNDB said they were gonna address how they were handling the book sometime after the new year but now were like 2 weeks away from the release, and no pre-order option.
I'm sure this release has kinda sent their team scrambling to figure out how they're gonna handle this but come on.
It will be a nightmare I'm sure.
Maybe they will just do a spellpoints and sidekicks with half its content, and just brush it under the rug for the next 10 years or so.
Anyone wanna give a sparknotes version of the leak? I'm at work and can't watch the video but I'm dying to know what the drama's gonna be about for the next few weeks lol
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
That's fair enough, but it's a little annoying if you've already invested a decent bit into 5E as this will be the policy going forward. It's one thing to skip a book because you don't like the contents, it's another to have every book that will ever come out have come with that new approach you don't like. I'd also suggest that more than likely the sales numbers would be more or less identical if WotC had made the floating ASIs officially optional rather than the default, or made the floating ASIs the default option but included optional suggested fixed ASIs. There was rather a bit of middle ground between the original policy and the new one, which would - IMO - have satisfied both parts of the player base.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I love the idea of floating ASI, and have been using it since Tasha's came out. It opens up a multitude of new character creation options like my goblin paladin. What's not to like?
You could always make a Goblin Paladin. The only thing stopping you before always you.
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
That's fair enough, but it's a little annoying if you've already invested a decent bit into 5E as this will be the policy going forward. It's one thing to skip a book because you don't like the contents, it's another to have every book that will ever come out have come with that new approach you don't like. I'd also suggest that more than likely the sales numbers would be more or less identical if WotC had made the floating ASIs officially optional rather than the default, or made the floating ASIs the default option but included optional suggested fixed ASIs. There was rather a bit of middle ground between the original policy and the new one, which would - IMO - have satisfied both parts of the player base.
It's not just a matter of sales, but also of perception, and even including an option that is becoming increasingly perceived by the public as "just straight-up racist" doesn't do them any favors.
The reason people don't like the floating ASI option in the first place is because it removes something that made races more distinct. In previous editions each race (aside from human and half-elf) not only had racial ability bonuses but also penalties to other abilities. So half-orc wizards or dwarven sorcerers would be at a disadvantage. Elves had a bonus to dexterity and a penalty to constitution to emphasize that they are agile and graceful at the cost of not being as physically tough as most other races. They already ditched the penalties, and now that flavor of some races being better at some things than others is being officially removed so that, on average, a dwarves are just as agile as elves and halflings are just as strong as goliaths. And gnomes are just as fast as creatures that have legs that are literally longer than they are tall. The argument is that unique flavor is being removed in favor of "options" that mean you can make a halfling that runs like an Olympic sprinter and can beat most goliaths in an arm wrestling match if somebody wants a character that can statistically lift roughly ten times their own body weight at level one (assuming it's not determined that encumbrance is another unnecessary option that should just be removed entirely). Add to that numerous races like genasi getting the "option" of what size they are and you begin to wonder how long (*cough*5.5*cough*) until we see something that explicitly says gnomes can range from two and a half to six and a half feet tall, just the same as goliaths.
And the difference between "errata" and "update" is nonexistent. Errata a subset of update by definition, one that changes previously official rules.
Yes, "the published rules are just guidelines and can be changed by the DM as they see fit." That has always been the case. What irritates me, and I suspect many others, is that it feels like WotC is moving away from "here are rules and lore that you can tweak as needed" to "Here are some vague concepts attached to words and you can make up your own rules for them. We aren't going to even suggest any specific and unique characteristics because we're giving you all sorts of options! That's content, folks, not just us being lazy writers!" Because if you ascribe to the "I don't need somebody else to tell me how to run my game" school of thought, then I ask why are you buying the books from them in the first place? Is it really hard to come up with a name for a fantasy race that you're just going to come up with rules and stats for on your own anyways that it's worth forty or fifty bucks to you? At the rate they're going they might as well just announce that the next revision/edition/whatever will just be a bunch of fantasy art books, and replace everybody responsible for creating lore with a single unpaid intern who goes through previous editions compiling names of races, items, spells, etc into a one big list as an appendix to mix and match with the pretty pictures.
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
Said like the gatekeeper us “grognards” have been accused of being for telling people “if you don’t like the racial ASIs, then don’t use them and just tell your players to put their points wherever.”
I am not "gate keeping" you or anyone else. Simply stating facts. If you don't like the changes that WotC are making, then the only thing that will influence them to roll back the changes is to take a financial loss. If you buy the books regardless, you are supporting the changes you don't like and they have no reason to listen to you.
I’ve already stopped purchasing 5e products since Tasha’s Crapper. I went on a 10-year boycott of al WotC products when they announced 4e on the heels of my repurchasing everything for 3.5. It took 5e to get me to end my boycott and it looks like 5e will trigger my next one.
But to put it into perspective for you, if people didn’t like the old system they didn’t need to play D&D in the first place. It’s the same argument. What makes one “Gatekeeping” and the other not? The answer: the popularity of the sentiment.
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
That's fair enough, but it's a little annoying if you've already invested a decent bit into 5E as this will be the policy going forward. It's one thing to skip a book because you don't like the contents, it's another to have every book that will ever come out have come with that new approach you don't like. I'd also suggest that more than likely the sales numbers would be more or less identical if WotC had made the floating ASIs officially optional rather than the default, or made the floating ASIs the default option but included optional suggested fixed ASIs. There was rather a bit of middle ground between the original policy and the new one, which would - IMO - have satisfied both parts of the player base.
It's not just a matter of sales, but also of perception, and even including an option that is becoming increasingly perceived by the public as "just straight-up racist" doesn't do them any favors.
Seriously, fixed ASIs are not "just straight up racist" given that a) they only apply to PCs and b) they don't change the cap on stats, which is still 20 across the board regardless of race and c) the various races are obviously different in a number of ways regardless of ASIs and d) there are no penalties anymore, only bonuses and e) the basic premisse of character creation is subclause 1) all races are balanced and thus equal and subclause 2) all stat increases are considered to be equally valuable. If the perception differs from the simple truth, adapting to the perception instead of adapting the perception itself is silly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
That's fair enough, but it's a little annoying if you've already invested a decent bit into 5E as this will be the policy going forward. It's one thing to skip a book because you don't like the contents, it's another to have every book that will ever come out have come with that new approach you don't like. I'd also suggest that more than likely the sales numbers would be more or less identical if WotC had made the floating ASIs officially optional rather than the default, or made the floating ASIs the default option but included optional suggested fixed ASIs. There was rather a bit of middle ground between the original policy and the new one, which would - IMO - have satisfied both parts of the player base.
It's not just a matter of sales, but also of perception, and even including an option that is becoming increasingly perceived by the public as "just straight-up racist" doesn't do them any favors.
Seriously, fixed ASIs are not "just straight up racist" given that a) they only apply to PCs and b) they don't change the cap on stats, which is still 20 across the board regardless of race and c) the various races are obviously different in a number of ways regardless of ASIs and d) there are no penalties anymore, only bonuses and e) the basic premisse of character creation is subclause 1) all races are balanced and thus equal and subclause 2) all stat increases are considered to be equally valuable. If the perception differs from the simple truth, adapting to the perception instead of adapting the perception itself is silly.
I chose my words very carefully so that I was not arguing that fixed ASIs are "just straight-up racist," because that's not an argument that I find interesting or relevant to the thread :)
I chose my words very carefully so that I was not arguing that fixed ASIs are "just straight-up racist," because that's not an argument that I find interesting or relevant to the thread :)
I didn't have to choose my words all that carefully, but as you can see I didn't say you were wrong - I said the perception is wrong.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
But to put it into perspective for you, if people didn’t like the old system they didn’t need to play D&D in the first place. It’s the same argument. What makes one “Gatekeeping” and the other not? The answer: the popularity of the sentiment.
It is a very short sighted view. D&D is a product. If it doesn't change to be relevant to a new generation of consumers, it will no longer make a profit and no longer be made. WotC can't depend on you to buy books from them for the next 50 years so that they can stay in business.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
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Interesting that Kenku mimicry is removed. I've always been put off by the race solely because of the language barrier and annoyance that may come from it, so I might be tempted to pick one up.
Zero is the most important number in D&D: Session Zero sets the boundaries and the tone; Rule Zero dictates the Dungeon Master (DM) is the final arbiter; and Zero D&D is better than Bad D&D.
"Let us speak plainly now, and in earnest, for words mean little without the weight of conviction."
- The Assemblage of Houses, World of Warcraft
I love the idea of floating ASI, and have been using it since Tasha's came out. It opens up a multitude of new character creation options like my goblin paladin. What's not to like?
I'm disappointed that they didn't redo humans. With the ability to spread your ASIs to three different skills for any race, the standard human had their main bonus made redundant for most situations. If you need 4 skills or it can be useful, but even then...I'm not sure it's worth losing all other abilities. It would have been good to see a rework so that they get something that made them worthwhile.
I'm also ambivalent about sunlight sensitivity/getting rid of negatives. I like the idea that you can make a race OP and then temper it with a negative. On the other hand, that can make things a bit unbalanced.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think that it will be treated the same way that the Dragonborn from Fizban's was treated and won't replace the old with the new. Whether or not that is good or bad is debatable, but there is a precedent.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
The only thing here that really disappoints me much is that they seem to be moving away from the idea of subraces altogether? I like related peoples being bound together by that mechanical organization, Idunno.
The reason people don't like the floating ASI option in the first place is because it removes something that made races more distinct. In previous editions each race (aside from human and half-elf) not only had racial ability bonuses but also penalties to other abilities. So half-orc wizards or dwarven sorcerers would be at a disadvantage. Elves had a bonus to dexterity and a penalty to constitution to emphasize that they are agile and graceful at the cost of not being as physically tough as most other races. They already ditched the penalties, and now that flavor of some races being better at some things than others is being officially removed so that, on average, a dwarves are just as agile as elves and halflings are just as strong as goliaths. And gnomes are just as fast as creatures that have legs that are literally longer than they are tall. The argument is that unique flavor is being removed in favor of "options" that mean you can make a halfling that runs like an Olympic sprinter and can beat most goliaths in an arm wrestling match if somebody wants a character that can statistically lift roughly ten times their own body weight at level one (assuming it's not determined that encumbrance is another unnecessary option that should just be removed entirely). Add to that numerous races like genasi getting the "option" of what size they are and you begin to wonder how long (*cough*5.5*cough*) until we see something that explicitly says gnomes can range from two and a half to six and a half feet tall, just the same as goliaths.
And the difference between "errata" and "update" is nonexistent. Errata a subset of update by definition, one that changes previously official rules.
Yes, "the published rules are just guidelines and can be changed by the DM as they see fit." That has always been the case. What irritates me, and I suspect many others, is that it feels like WotC is moving away from "here are rules and lore that you can tweak as needed" to "Here are some vague concepts attached to words and you can make up your own rules for them. We aren't going to even suggest any specific and unique characteristics because we're giving you all sorts of options! That's content, folks, not just us being lazy writers!" Because if you ascribe to the "I don't need somebody else to tell me how to run my game" school of thought, then I ask why are you buying the books from them in the first place? Is it really hard to come up with a name for a fantasy race that you're just going to come up with rules and stats for on your own anyways that it's worth forty or fifty bucks to you? At the rate they're going they might as well just announce that the next revision/edition/whatever will just be a bunch of fantasy art books, and replace everybody responsible for creating lore with a single unpaid intern who goes through previous editions compiling names of races, items, spells, etc into a one big list as an appendix to mix and match with the pretty pictures.
All of the arguments you are making have been made before. Many, many times before. WotC has sales numbers that appear to show that the majority of the player base disagrees with you and those that don't want things to change. Your only option is, If you don't like it, don't buy it. You have the original PHB, Volo's and Mordy's to use. If you don't I recommend buying them, you will likely see used copies going up for sale before long.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
DNDB said they were gonna address how they were handling the book sometime after the new year but now were like 2 weeks away from the release, and no pre-order option.
I'm sure this release has kinda sent their team scrambling to figure out how they're gonna handle this but come on.
It will be a nightmare I'm sure.
Maybe they will just do a spellpoints and sidekicks with half its content, and just brush it under the rug for the next 10 years or so.
Anyone wanna give a sparknotes version of the leak? I'm at work and can't watch the video but I'm dying to know what the drama's gonna be about for the next few weeks lol
That's fair enough, but it's a little annoying if you've already invested a decent bit into 5E as this will be the policy going forward. It's one thing to skip a book because you don't like the contents, it's another to have every book that will ever come out have come with that new approach you don't like. I'd also suggest that more than likely the sales numbers would be more or less identical if WotC had made the floating ASIs officially optional rather than the default, or made the floating ASIs the default option but included optional suggested fixed ASIs. There was rather a bit of middle ground between the original policy and the new one, which would - IMO - have satisfied both parts of the player base.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
You could always make a Goblin Paladin. The only thing stopping you before always you.
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It may be a “win” for that soulless money grubbing corporation, but IMO it’s a “loss” for D&D.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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It's not just a matter of sales, but also of perception, and even including an option that is becoming increasingly perceived by the public as "just straight-up racist" doesn't do them any favors.
Sounds like the "quick build" sections will suggest ASIs to increase, for the people who need that guidance. (Molehill -> mountain -> molehill.)
I’ve already stopped purchasing 5e products since Tasha’s Crapper. I went on a 10-year boycott of al WotC products when they announced 4e on the heels of my repurchasing everything for 3.5. It took 5e to get me to end my boycott and it looks like 5e will trigger my next one.
But to put it into perspective for you, if people didn’t like the old system they didn’t need to play D&D in the first place. It’s the same argument. What makes one “Gatekeeping” and the other not? The answer: the popularity of the sentiment.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Seriously, fixed ASIs are not "just straight up racist" given that a) they only apply to PCs and b) they don't change the cap on stats, which is still 20 across the board regardless of race and c) the various races are obviously different in a number of ways regardless of ASIs and d) there are no penalties anymore, only bonuses and e) the basic premisse of character creation is subclause 1) all races are balanced and thus equal and subclause 2) all stat increases are considered to be equally valuable. If the perception differs from the simple truth, adapting to the perception instead of adapting the perception itself is silly.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I chose my words very carefully so that I was not arguing that fixed ASIs are "just straight-up racist," because that's not an argument that I find interesting or relevant to the thread :)
I didn't have to choose my words all that carefully, but as you can see I didn't say you were wrong - I said the perception is wrong.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
It is a very short sighted view. D&D is a product. If it doesn't change to be relevant to a new generation of consumers, it will no longer make a profit and no longer be made. WotC can't depend on you to buy books from them for the next 50 years so that they can stay in business.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master