So I'm playing in a campaign with my friends, and the DM and I have worked together to make my character a traitor. How can we make this fun for EVERYBODY at the table, and not just the two of us? Here's some context that might help; feel free to ask for more.
The setting consists of superpowers called "epithets," and everyone in the party, my character included, has one. There's an organization trying to purge them by whatever means necessary, so my character is a target. Ergo, my character has sided with this organization to maybe get spared by them. Yes, this means that my character has nothing against the party, and will happily keep them alive if he can stay alive himself.
The current plan is to have a few normal sessions, then hint at the party that there is a traitor, then if they miss the hint, confirm that there is a traitor OOC without explicitly saying who it is.
If I get caught, the DM has created an exfiltration scene to make sure that there's still some tense moment, even if I'm caught within seconds.
Just to make sure that the party has a few hints right off the bat, my character has a flower tattoo, which is permanently visible on his character token, and there's only ONE other character with a flower as part of their attire. The connection is a way to both hint at the traitor, and to verify that the DM isn't making this whole thing up for no reason.
Quite frankly, this whole scenario sounds like something that won't be fun for the whole party no matter how you set it up or advertise it before hand.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Betrayal scenarios are problematic, though some games have mechanics to support it as an expected part of play. I think the big thing is, what do you the player do once you're either discovered or finally do your heel turn reveal? Betrayal or intramural pick up games Civil Wars within the party is extreme splitting the party and no one is going want to do compartmentalized play where the characters do there thing and then we cut to Heel the Betrayer's antic is Badguyland. It's like another thread on characters with "special secrets" they keep not just from the characters but guard them from the players. No one likes being played the fool in what is supposed to be an ensemble game. The point of the game, or the game functions best when the party is _working_ _together_. Secret agenda kep hidden even at the meta level means you and the DM have developed a mini game that you two are depriving time from the main game. It just smells bad and sorta poisons the table good will toward you and the DM if you string them along like that.
I don't like DMing where the DM comes up with "something cool" for a particular character that is going to produce deleterious effects on the rest of the party. There are so. many. ways. for a DM to grant "something cool" to a particular character in a manner the rest of the players can enjoy as well. A character just shouldn't be a plot twist, it abuses the game dynamic.
I mean the fact that you're asking the question betrays, so to speak, that you know this is a challenge to do "right" ... largely because there ain't a way to to do this right without pee owing someone.
What am I gonna do? As I mentioned in the bullet points above, the DM is working on an exfiltration scene where my character tries to get out and the party tries to capture them, creating one final climactic moment in the whole arc. Best part: this happens no matter how early or late I get caught, so this doesn't bank on perfect play to work out the way it does.
Thanks for the word of advice about making sure to not ruin the flow of the game with this whole plan. I'll mention it to the DM, and we'll try to find a way to not mess that up.
As for the whole "so. many. ways." thing, may I hear a few of them? I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, and if it makes games more fun for everyone, I'm 100% down for it!
You're probably right about that final remark, so we're mostly aiming for that "slow applause with a knife in your back" thing, where even if it does have some negative consequences, you've just gotta give credit for what it took to catch you off guard like that. It's not easy, but there's only one way we can figure this out, and that's try to pull this off.
Meh you can't really do anything to guarantee that. Maybe your fellow members like twists like that, maybe they really don't. Guess in a way it's up to how much you know them, also I suppose some of it also comes down to how into the campaign and they party they are. If they are really invested that will create more of a sense of shock, and also possibly more chances of them being upset. On the flip side if they aren't really into it all than the reveal might be a bit of a /shrug moment with someone simply trying to murder you at the moment of reveal. another big factor is time too, a few seasons and the reveal of a traitor in the party? Is anyone really bought into their characters that early on for it to mean much?
What contingency is there for this reveal happening and your party just being like well I'm not a traitor, neither am I what is this about? and leaving you in a weird spot as they all kinda go OOC about it?
I guess a big question you need to ask yourself is "what does this BRING to the story?" What is this really going to lead to? What is the point of there being a traitor? Are you goin to have some.. critical plot mcguffin? are you going to be some reoccurring problem? Also whats your replacement characters introduction going to be like when this happens?
I am curious still as to how the betrayal will play out. If you're betraying the party, what does that mean for the party? At present it sounds more like you're going to be escaping and abandoning them, which is sort of betrayal but not really.
If your character wants the party to survive them consider betraying an organisation that the party considers themselves a part of, and include the party. Here's an example plot:
1: betray the party - Evil.org wants them and you dead, so you offer Evil.org them in order to spare yourself. the party has to fight for their lives and you have directly gone against them, leading to inter-party conflict and making it seem like your character doesn't care about them at all.
2: Betray as a party - Evil.org wants these Epithets dead, and you've just banded up with a big old group of them. Your character contacts Evil.org and negotiates the safety of the party (yourslef included) in exchange for the big band of good guys you've joined up with. Evil.org even throws in 10,000 gold. You reveal this to the party, reasoning "if I told you you would have blown it, now we're rich and safe!", and the party has to make the decision on whether to act or step back. Your "betrayal" was secret and affected the party, but at the same time you showed you cared about them.
Honestly I can't see how the party finding themselves under atatck because your character betrayed them will result in anything but a headhunt, and potentially even distrust of future characters ("I don't trust Boomer's lawful good paladin, last campaign their character betrayed us and we all died").
I think that if you want to do any "betrayal", then it should be as a party, but without the rest of the party knowing. You persuade the party to clear out a goblin village because they're "evil", then show them the bag of gold the property developer paid the party for doing their dirty work. That sort of betrayal leaves space for the party to work on it - keeping the rogue under watch, never taking their plans without scrutiny, and so on. Do it in the party's interests, but in a way you know will conflict them. "Hey guys, we can be rich, we just have to not stop Evil.org from killing these Epithets!". Watch the roleplay unfold as the neutral characters argue with the good ones over what is the best thing to do.
Or, plan a double betrayal. Betray the good guys to the bad guys, and then expect the party to spring a trap on the bad guys. Perhaps Evil.org will release their army to go deal with the good guys, leaving their fortress unguarded, so the rogue can sneak in and kill the bad guy. If you get gold up front, you can still be the good guy and get rich!
As a DM, I would not allow this. It will split the party and quite possibly end up with your character killed by the party. In my current campaign, any of the other members would kill you for betraying them, and all I would say as the DM is, "Roll for initiative..."
How can I make betraying the party fun for EVERYBODY?
Simple, involve the whole table so every player can participate. The PCs would still be betrayed, but PCs ≠ Players.
So... let the players know I'm betraying the characters? I understand, but I'm worried that that's going to go one of two ways, neither really that fun:
The players now constantly watch my character to an unrealistic degree, waiting for him to do the slightest thing that might blow his cover, then use that as an in-character reason to kill him, while being far more lenient with the others for no reason.
The players do the opposite, refusing to catch my character since they're worried of metagaming on accident, which makes my character barely have a challenge doing what he's doing.
That's why I've decided some enforced method acting my not revealing the traitor's identity might be better for us: no information to bias the party, no bias against anyone, everyone can enjoy the game. Or course, not all tables work this way, and I understand if your table is different.
As a DM, I would not allow this. It will split the party and quite possibly end up with your character killed by the party. In my current campaign, any of the other members would kill you for betraying them, and all I would say as the DM is, "Roll for initiative..."
Thanks for the word of caution. I've decided that if I'm playing a traitor character, I have to be okay with the risk of PC death. And I will be.
The only thing I can't really address is the party split, which in my experience can be done right, if not easily. This whole plan is an experiment for all of us, so we're going to have to find out if this plan works for our table or not.
How can I make betraying the party fun for EVERYBODY?
Simple, involve the whole table so every player can participate. The PCs would still be betrayed, but PCs ≠ Players.
So... let the players know I'm betraying the characters? I understand, but I'm worried that that's going to go one of two ways, neither really that fun:
No. Let them know that your character is planning to betray their characters and let them get involved with the plot twist.
*¡Players ≠ Characters!*
Keeping the distinction between Player and Character clear is important, and makes for better D&D. I should hope that you personally aren’t planning to betray anyone, especially the other players. If you are personally planning to betray the other players, then my advice is “don’t do it” as only a wangrod would betray the other players. By including the other players in your character’s plan it reinforces the delineation of players from their characters and allows your character to be a wangrod without you becoming one. Informed consent is not just for physical interactions between people in adult type situations, it’s for any interaction between people where someone could get hurt by the actions of another person. Get informed consent from the others so you don’t hurt them.
"Players ≠ Characters" is a myth in the overwhelming majority of tables. Yes, there are some players who can divorce their player character from their real world metagame knowledge--but that is the exception, not the norm. Telling the other players in advance will mitigate the shock some, but there will inevitably be one person (if not more) who are going to change their character's behavior in response to your revelation. That does not mean they are bad at the game--just that human nature makes it hard to turn off certain knowledge once obtained.
You also run the risk of making the game less fun, not more. Some groups enjoy the surprise, and surprise is much more entertaining and genuine if the player themselves is surprised, and not just trying to force their character to exhibit surprise when they themselves are not. This is a decision that should be based more on your group--I know I personally would rather feel genuine surprise at both the player and the character level.
The best thing you can do on this front--start telegraphing the betrayal early, in a subtle way that players might not pick up on. Make some comments that indicate you agree with the bad guy's policies, without ever mentioning the exact words of the bad guy or the bad guy themselves. Perhaps show "mercy" to some captured individuals, in a way that players might think you are a good person. Try to foment division among the party, in a way that does not make it seem like that is what you are doing (i.e. trying to subtly inflame divisions between the parties' different worldviews). Try to segregate off one of the other members of the party so they become more loyal to you than the others, and they then have to try to decide who they will side with when the betrayal happens. Maybe the DM is careful to never hit you with really large attacks with the enemy monsters (the DM could, for example, roll smaller damage dice against you, since they are not trying to hit as hard, while still trying to make it "look real").
Your goal should be for there to be a surprise, but for there to be a surprise that the other players look back and say "Oh, that explains so much!" The most dangerous thing you could do from a table enjoyment setting in a betrayal situation is make it feel like the betrayal came out of the blue--then it just feels like you made a spur of the moment decision to change your character. Setting the stage early will make it feel like it is another step of the campaign that has long been in the planning, not just a random change done for the sake of making the party annoyed.
Just as an aside, to air one of my personal pet peeves: Every time someone makes a thread that is like this or something similar, the folks always come out of the woodworks to say "this is a bad idea" and offer nothing actually constructive to the OP. I cannot imagine how annoying that must be for someone to come to the forums, ask for help, and be told "you and your playgroup are playing the game wrong." That's not to say you should not express your concerns--maybe the OP on this type of thread did not think about the problems, but maybe they did, and their playgroup is 100% okay with this kind of behavior. ONLY expressing your concerns and not providing a "now that I have said the problems, here's an answer to your question that isn't just me trying to force my views on D&D on you and your playgroup" is less than helpful. Surely we, as a community, can do better than the clear contempt so many of you seem to have to this kind of campaign.
Rolls Animal Handling check to get off his high horse.
"Players ≠ Characters" is a myth in the overwhelming majority of tables. Yes, there are some players who can divorce their player character from their real world metagame knowledge--but that is the exception, not the norm. Telling the other players in advance will mitigate the shock some, but there will inevitably be one person (if not more) who are going to change their character's behavior in response to your revelation. That does not mean they are bad at the game--just that human nature makes it hard to turn off certain knowledge once obtained.
You also run the risk of making the game less fun, not more. Some groups enjoy the surprise, and surprise is much more entertaining and genuine if the player themselves is surprised, and not just trying to force their character to exhibit surprise when they themselves are not. This is a decision that should be based more on your group--I know I personally would rather feel genuine surprise at both the player and the character level.
The best thing you can do on this front--start telegraphing the betrayal early, in a subtle way that players might not pick up on. Make some comments that indicate you agree with the bad guy's policies, without ever mentioning the exact words of the bad guy or the bad guy themselves. Perhaps show "mercy" to some captured individuals, in a way that players might think you are a good person. Try to foment division among the party, in a way that does not make it seem like that is what you are doing (i.e. trying to subtly inflame divisions between the parties' different worldviews). Try to segregate off one of the other members of the party so they become more loyal to you than the others, and they then have to try to decide who they will side with when the betrayal happens. Maybe the DM is careful to never hit you with really large attacks with the enemy monsters (the DM could, for example, roll smaller damage dice against you, since they are not trying to hit as hard, while still trying to make it "look real").
Your goal should be for there to be a surprise, but for there to be a surprise that the other players look back and say "Oh, that explains so much!" The most dangerous thing you could do from a table enjoyment setting in a betrayal situation is make it feel like the betrayal came out of the blue--then it just feels like you made a spur of the moment decision to change your character. Setting the stage early will make it feel like it is another step of the campaign that has long been in the planning, not just a random change done for the sake of making the party annoyed.
Just as an aside, to air one of my personal pet peeves: Every time someone makes a thread that is like this or something similar, the folks always come out of the woodworks to say "this is a bad idea" and offer nothing actually constructive to the OP. I cannot imagine how annoying that must be for someone to come to the forums, ask for help, and be told "you and your playgroup are playing the game wrong." That's not to say you should not express your concerns--maybe the OP on this type of thread did not think about the problems, but maybe they did, and their playgroup is 100% okay with this kind of behavior. ONLY expressing your concerns and not providing a "now that I have said the problems, here's an answer to your question that isn't just me trying to force my views on D&D on you and your playgroup" is less than helpful. Surely we, as a community, can do better than the clear contempt so many of you seem to have to this kind of campaign.
Rolls Animal Handling check to get off his high horse.
Thank you so much for all the tips!
The way my character is set up, he doesn't actually agree with the BBEG, so that could be a slight problem. The current plan is for the BBEG to be so cocky, they hint at a traitor in the party, and then the DM will confirm this OOC, just to keep the party from getting caught TOO off guard.
The division tip seems really hard, but if we can make it work, it also seems really effective. Do you have any good suggestions on how the DM and I can pull this off discreetly?
The lower damage dice would be good, but we usually play on roll20, so that could come off as a bit suspicious in some cases. Still, we'll keep that in mind!
Just to help it not come out of the blue, the BBEG has a flower on their hat and as decorations on all their minions, my character has a tattoo, and no other characters have similar motifs. It'd be a nice little "hey, there was something here the whole time just to verify that yes, it was me all along," and it might help the players feel a little less hurt from this. Of course, this is our first time running a formal traitor in a game, so we still have a lot to learn.
The division tip seems really hard, but if we can make it work, it also seems really effective. Do you have any good suggestions on how the DM and I can pull this off discreetly?
This is mostly going to be driven by your own party dynamic at both the character and the player level. In general, you want to play off what the other character wants--if you know they want a certain goal, you can start talking about ways they can accomplish that goal that might differ from the party's plans. Or you could present certain facets of the bad guy's plan in a way that fits that particular character (i.e. if they came from a town burned by rebels, you could have a conversation about how great it would be for someone strong to come by and clear out the bandits). Specifically look for things that the other person seems frustrated about--disagreements with another party member, being upset that their personal quest is getting ignored in favor of something else, etc. Subtlety is generally your friend, but the manner of how you approach the subtlety is something you will have to gauge yourself.
I know that is not the most helpful answer, but so much about your question is dependent on your particular player dynamic that I am not sure there can be a more useful answer without intimate knowledge of your group itself.
There are plenty of games where a traitor scenario can work, Among Us and Mafia/Werewolf being the most notable. However, they only work because all the players know in advance that's what they're signing up for
If during a session 0 or mid-campaign discussion, the DM lets everyone know that the game is now entering a phase where there's a traitor in their midst, without revealing exactly who it is, and -- this is the most important part -- everyone is on board with the idea, then you've got a shot at the "everyone enjoys themselves" outcome you want
Springing it on the other players as a surprise just increases the odds exponentially someone is not going to enjoy themselves, simply because it's not the game they wanted to play
In short, your preparation and execution of the story line are a lot less important than the expectations of everyone involved what kind of story they're participating in
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I am still curious as to exactly how the betrayal will take place - what we know so far is:
your character does not like the BBEG
your whole party is marked for death by the BBEG
you want to save your skin by "betraying" your party
you don't wat your party to die
you plan on making an escape sequence hwich you've planned with the DM
it will be easier to offer ideas for how to make this fun for all the players if you can tll us what the "Betrayal" will be - are you telling their secrets, leaving them to save yourself, selling their lives for some silver, or stabbing them yourself?
As a DM I would allow for a player to try and become a traitor but I would not allow it to be easy. I would have the BBEG tell them to bring the party over to their side. I would have the BBEG make severe threats for failure, demand progress reports, and so on. I would make it infinitely possible for the player to change their minds and try to pull off a double agent role if the yare found out or they can't do it.
Because where's the fun if the player wants to make a deal and the BBEG just says "yeah, sure, whatever you want!"?
ANYWAY if you want more ideas then I'd suggest telling us how exactly you intend to betray the party, then we can tell you how we would make that fun!
What is the long term goal here? Will you be doing the betrayal bu then bow out of the campaign after you're exposed if you get caught? Or is the plan to somehow try and re integrate your character into the party down the road? Are you going to write the betrayer out and insert a new PC you play?
In the past I have done the following, tell group that I am going to be trying some non-standard RP stuff and reinforce that PC's are not the players. Also lay some ground rules for the betraying player on what they can and cannot do and when they are required to do some things. One of the most important and hard things to do is keep player knowledge from becoming PC knowledge and vice versa.
Some issues with your situation that I see are, how does your PC communicate with the "treasonous group"? Can the PC's detect that and or notice something strange going on? How do you RP that and is that something your group normally RP's? If your PC is replaced by a changeling or doppelganger how do you RP their non-perfect knowledge of the person they replaced?
When I have done such things I try and keep the duration of the non-standard RP to less then three 6 hour sessions and generally like it to be only 1 session. But your group may be different.
I have often found some GM's try and make their game like a movie or book and that can cause issues with their group and the fact that RPG games are not movies and or books. But I would also say that trying new things and taking inspiration from multiple sources is generally beneficial, even if it does not go well or as planed the first time.
I am still curious as to exactly how the betrayal will take place - what we know so far is:
your character does not like the BBEG
your whole party is marked for death by the BBEG
you want to save your skin by "betraying" your party
you don't wat your party to die
you plan on making an escape sequence hwich you've planned with the DM
it will be easier to offer ideas for how to make this fun for all the players if you can tll us what the "Betrayal" will be - are you telling their secrets, leaving them to save yourself, selling their lives for some silver, or stabbing them yourself?
As a DM I would allow for a player to try and become a traitor but I would not allow it to be easy. I would have the BBEG tell them to bring the party over to their side. I would have the BBEG make severe threats for failure, demand progress reports, and so on. I would make it infinitely possible for the player to change their minds and try to pull off a double agent role if the yare found out or they can't do it.
Because where's the fun if the player wants to make a deal and the BBEG just says "yeah, sure, whatever you want!"?
ANYWAY if you want more ideas then I'd suggest telling us how exactly you intend to betray the party, then we can tell you how we would make that fun!
Well, it's kind of a grab bag. The BBEG has some special contacts with my character, so they're able to ask for whatever helps them out in the current moment. Given my character's backstory, it's probably actively killing them. Of course, those last two are pretty hard to pull off, so in the meantime, my character is mostly going to be trying to indirectly hamper the party's progress, possibly stalling them for long enough for the BBEG to deal with them on their own terms.
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So I'm playing in a campaign with my friends, and the DM and I have worked together to make my character a traitor. How can we make this fun for EVERYBODY at the table, and not just the two of us? Here's some context that might help; feel free to ask for more.
Thanks in advance for the help, everyone!
Quite frankly, this whole scenario sounds like something that won't be fun for the whole party no matter how you set it up or advertise it before hand.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Betrayal scenarios are problematic, though some games have mechanics to support it as an expected part of play. I think the big thing is, what do you the player do once you're either discovered or finally do your heel turn reveal? Betrayal or
intramural pick up gamesCivil Wars within the party is extreme splitting the party and no one is going want to do compartmentalized play where the characters do there thing and then we cut to Heel the Betrayer's antic is Badguyland. It's like another thread on characters with "special secrets" they keep not just from the characters but guard them from the players. No one likes being played the fool in what is supposed to be an ensemble game. The point of the game, or the game functions best when the party is _working_ _together_. Secret agenda kep hidden even at the meta level means you and the DM have developed a mini game that you two are depriving time from the main game. It just smells bad and sorta poisons the table good will toward you and the DM if you string them along like that.I don't like DMing where the DM comes up with "something cool" for a particular character that is going to produce deleterious effects on the rest of the party. There are so. many. ways. for a DM to grant "something cool" to a particular character in a manner the rest of the players can enjoy as well. A character just shouldn't be a plot twist, it abuses the game dynamic.
I mean the fact that you're asking the question betrays, so to speak, that you know this is a challenge to do "right" ... largely because there ain't a way to to do this right without pee owing someone.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Replying to #3
What am I gonna do? As I mentioned in the bullet points above, the DM is working on an exfiltration scene where my character tries to get out and the party tries to capture them, creating one final climactic moment in the whole arc. Best part: this happens no matter how early or late I get caught, so this doesn't bank on perfect play to work out the way it does.
Thanks for the word of advice about making sure to not ruin the flow of the game with this whole plan. I'll mention it to the DM, and we'll try to find a way to not mess that up.
As for the whole "so. many. ways." thing, may I hear a few of them? I'm genuinely interested in what you have to say, and if it makes games more fun for everyone, I'm 100% down for it!
You're probably right about that final remark, so we're mostly aiming for that "slow applause with a knife in your back" thing, where even if it does have some negative consequences, you've just gotta give credit for what it took to catch you off guard like that. It's not easy, but there's only one way we can figure this out, and that's try to pull this off.
Thanks for all the insight!
Meh you can't really do anything to guarantee that. Maybe your fellow members like twists like that, maybe they really don't. Guess in a way it's up to how much you know them, also I suppose some of it also comes down to how into the campaign and they party they are. If they are really invested that will create more of a sense of shock, and also possibly more chances of them being upset. On the flip side if they aren't really into it all than the reveal might be a bit of a /shrug moment with someone simply trying to murder you at the moment of reveal. another big factor is time too, a few seasons and the reveal of a traitor in the party? Is anyone really bought into their characters that early on for it to mean much?
What contingency is there for this reveal happening and your party just being like well I'm not a traitor, neither am I what is this about? and leaving you in a weird spot as they all kinda go OOC about it?
I guess a big question you need to ask yourself is "what does this BRING to the story?" What is this really going to lead to? What is the point of there being a traitor? Are you goin to have some.. critical plot mcguffin? are you going to be some reoccurring problem? Also whats your replacement characters introduction going to be like when this happens?
I am curious still as to how the betrayal will play out. If you're betraying the party, what does that mean for the party? At present it sounds more like you're going to be escaping and abandoning them, which is sort of betrayal but not really.
If your character wants the party to survive them consider betraying an organisation that the party considers themselves a part of, and include the party. Here's an example plot:
1: betray the party - Evil.org wants them and you dead, so you offer Evil.org them in order to spare yourself. the party has to fight for their lives and you have directly gone against them, leading to inter-party conflict and making it seem like your character doesn't care about them at all.
2: Betray as a party - Evil.org wants these Epithets dead, and you've just banded up with a big old group of them. Your character contacts Evil.org and negotiates the safety of the party (yourslef included) in exchange for the big band of good guys you've joined up with. Evil.org even throws in 10,000 gold. You reveal this to the party, reasoning "if I told you you would have blown it, now we're rich and safe!", and the party has to make the decision on whether to act or step back. Your "betrayal" was secret and affected the party, but at the same time you showed you cared about them.
Honestly I can't see how the party finding themselves under atatck because your character betrayed them will result in anything but a headhunt, and potentially even distrust of future characters ("I don't trust Boomer's lawful good paladin, last campaign their character betrayed us and we all died").
I think that if you want to do any "betrayal", then it should be as a party, but without the rest of the party knowing. You persuade the party to clear out a goblin village because they're "evil", then show them the bag of gold the property developer paid the party for doing their dirty work. That sort of betrayal leaves space for the party to work on it - keeping the rogue under watch, never taking their plans without scrutiny, and so on. Do it in the party's interests, but in a way you know will conflict them. "Hey guys, we can be rich, we just have to not stop Evil.org from killing these Epithets!". Watch the roleplay unfold as the neutral characters argue with the good ones over what is the best thing to do.
Or, plan a double betrayal. Betray the good guys to the bad guys, and then expect the party to spring a trap on the bad guys. Perhaps Evil.org will release their army to go deal with the good guys, leaving their fortress unguarded, so the rogue can sneak in and kill the bad guy. If you get gold up front, you can still be the good guy and get rich!
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Simple, involve the whole table so every player can participate. The PCs would still be betrayed, but PCs ≠ Players.
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As a DM, I would not allow this. It will split the party and quite possibly end up with your character killed by the party. In my current campaign, any of the other members would kill you for betraying them, and all I would say as the DM is, "Roll for initiative..."
So... let the players know I'm betraying the characters? I understand, but I'm worried that that's going to go one of two ways, neither really that fun:
That's why I've decided some enforced method acting my not revealing the traitor's identity might be better for us: no information to bias the party, no bias against anyone, everyone can enjoy the game. Or course, not all tables work this way, and I understand if your table is different.
Thanks for the word of caution. I've decided that if I'm playing a traitor character, I have to be okay with the risk of PC death. And I will be.
The only thing I can't really address is the party split, which in my experience can be done right, if not easily. This whole plan is an experiment for all of us, so we're going to have to find out if this plan works for our table or not.
Again, thanks for the insight!
No. Let them know that your character is planning to betray their characters and let them get involved with the plot twist.
*¡Players ≠ Characters!*
Keeping the distinction between Player and Character clear is important, and makes for better D&D. I should hope that you personally aren’t planning to betray anyone, especially the other players. If you are personally planning to betray the other players, then my advice is “don’t do it” as only a wangrod would betray the other players. By including the other players in your character’s plan it reinforces the delineation of players from their characters and allows your character to be a wangrod without you becoming one. Informed consent is not just for physical interactions between people in adult type situations, it’s for any interaction between people where someone could get hurt by the actions of another person. Get informed consent from the others so you don’t hurt them.
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Content Troubleshooting
"Players ≠ Characters" is a myth in the overwhelming majority of tables. Yes, there are some players who can divorce their player character from their real world metagame knowledge--but that is the exception, not the norm. Telling the other players in advance will mitigate the shock some, but there will inevitably be one person (if not more) who are going to change their character's behavior in response to your revelation. That does not mean they are bad at the game--just that human nature makes it hard to turn off certain knowledge once obtained.
You also run the risk of making the game less fun, not more. Some groups enjoy the surprise, and surprise is much more entertaining and genuine if the player themselves is surprised, and not just trying to force their character to exhibit surprise when they themselves are not. This is a decision that should be based more on your group--I know I personally would rather feel genuine surprise at both the player and the character level.
The best thing you can do on this front--start telegraphing the betrayal early, in a subtle way that players might not pick up on. Make some comments that indicate you agree with the bad guy's policies, without ever mentioning the exact words of the bad guy or the bad guy themselves. Perhaps show "mercy" to some captured individuals, in a way that players might think you are a good person. Try to foment division among the party, in a way that does not make it seem like that is what you are doing (i.e. trying to subtly inflame divisions between the parties' different worldviews). Try to segregate off one of the other members of the party so they become more loyal to you than the others, and they then have to try to decide who they will side with when the betrayal happens. Maybe the DM is careful to never hit you with really large attacks with the enemy monsters (the DM could, for example, roll smaller damage dice against you, since they are not trying to hit as hard, while still trying to make it "look real").
Your goal should be for there to be a surprise, but for there to be a surprise that the other players look back and say "Oh, that explains so much!" The most dangerous thing you could do from a table enjoyment setting in a betrayal situation is make it feel like the betrayal came out of the blue--then it just feels like you made a spur of the moment decision to change your character. Setting the stage early will make it feel like it is another step of the campaign that has long been in the planning, not just a random change done for the sake of making the party annoyed.
Just as an aside, to air one of my personal pet peeves: Every time someone makes a thread that is like this or something similar, the folks always come out of the woodworks to say "this is a bad idea" and offer nothing actually constructive to the OP. I cannot imagine how annoying that must be for someone to come to the forums, ask for help, and be told "you and your playgroup are playing the game wrong." That's not to say you should not express your concerns--maybe the OP on this type of thread did not think about the problems, but maybe they did, and their playgroup is 100% okay with this kind of behavior. ONLY expressing your concerns and not providing a "now that I have said the problems, here's an answer to your question that isn't just me trying to force my views on D&D on you and your playgroup" is less than helpful. Surely we, as a community, can do better than the clear contempt so many of you seem to have to this kind of campaign.
Rolls Animal Handling check to get off his high horse.
Thank you so much for all the tips!
The way my character is set up, he doesn't actually agree with the BBEG, so that could be a slight problem. The current plan is for the BBEG to be so cocky, they hint at a traitor in the party, and then the DM will confirm this OOC, just to keep the party from getting caught TOO off guard.
The division tip seems really hard, but if we can make it work, it also seems really effective. Do you have any good suggestions on how the DM and I can pull this off discreetly?
The lower damage dice would be good, but we usually play on roll20, so that could come off as a bit suspicious in some cases. Still, we'll keep that in mind!
Just to help it not come out of the blue, the BBEG has a flower on their hat and as decorations on all their minions, my character has a tattoo, and no other characters have similar motifs. It'd be a nice little "hey, there was something here the whole time just to verify that yes, it was me all along," and it might help the players feel a little less hurt from this. Of course, this is our first time running a formal traitor in a game, so we still have a lot to learn.
Again, thanks for EVERYTHING!
This is mostly going to be driven by your own party dynamic at both the character and the player level. In general, you want to play off what the other character wants--if you know they want a certain goal, you can start talking about ways they can accomplish that goal that might differ from the party's plans. Or you could present certain facets of the bad guy's plan in a way that fits that particular character (i.e. if they came from a town burned by rebels, you could have a conversation about how great it would be for someone strong to come by and clear out the bandits). Specifically look for things that the other person seems frustrated about--disagreements with another party member, being upset that their personal quest is getting ignored in favor of something else, etc. Subtlety is generally your friend, but the manner of how you approach the subtlety is something you will have to gauge yourself.
I know that is not the most helpful answer, but so much about your question is dependent on your particular player dynamic that I am not sure there can be a more useful answer without intimate knowledge of your group itself.
There are plenty of games where a traitor scenario can work, Among Us and Mafia/Werewolf being the most notable. However, they only work because all the players know in advance that's what they're signing up for
If during a session 0 or mid-campaign discussion, the DM lets everyone know that the game is now entering a phase where there's a traitor in their midst, without revealing exactly who it is, and -- this is the most important part -- everyone is on board with the idea, then you've got a shot at the "everyone enjoys themselves" outcome you want
Springing it on the other players as a surprise just increases the odds exponentially someone is not going to enjoy themselves, simply because it's not the game they wanted to play
In short, your preparation and execution of the story line are a lot less important than the expectations of everyone involved what kind of story they're participating in
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You could just map a game of mafia/werewolf on the campaign. Make sure everyone is aware this is happening.
I am still curious as to exactly how the betrayal will take place - what we know so far is:
it will be easier to offer ideas for how to make this fun for all the players if you can tll us what the "Betrayal" will be - are you telling their secrets, leaving them to save yourself, selling their lives for some silver, or stabbing them yourself?
As a DM I would allow for a player to try and become a traitor but I would not allow it to be easy. I would have the BBEG tell them to bring the party over to their side. I would have the BBEG make severe threats for failure, demand progress reports, and so on. I would make it infinitely possible for the player to change their minds and try to pull off a double agent role if the yare found out or they can't do it.
Because where's the fun if the player wants to make a deal and the BBEG just says "yeah, sure, whatever you want!"?
ANYWAY if you want more ideas then I'd suggest telling us how exactly you intend to betray the party, then we can tell you how we would make that fun!
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What is the long term goal here? Will you be doing the betrayal bu then bow out of the campaign after you're exposed if you get caught? Or is the plan to somehow try and re integrate your character into the party down the road? Are you going to write the betrayer out and insert a new PC you play?
#15 offers some great advice.
In the past I have done the following, tell group that I am going to be trying some non-standard RP stuff and reinforce that PC's are not the players. Also lay some ground rules for the betraying player on what they can and cannot do and when they are required to do some things. One of the most important and hard things to do is keep player knowledge from becoming PC knowledge and vice versa.
Some issues with your situation that I see are, how does your PC communicate with the "treasonous group"? Can the PC's detect that and or notice something strange going on? How do you RP that and is that something your group normally RP's? If your PC is replaced by a changeling or doppelganger how do you RP their non-perfect knowledge of the person they replaced?
When I have done such things I try and keep the duration of the non-standard RP to less then three 6 hour sessions and generally like it to be only 1 session. But your group may be different.
I have often found some GM's try and make their game like a movie or book and that can cause issues with their group and the fact that RPG games are not movies and or books. But I would also say that trying new things and taking inspiration from multiple sources is generally beneficial, even if it does not go well or as planed the first time.
Well, it's kind of a grab bag. The BBEG has some special contacts with my character, so they're able to ask for whatever helps them out in the current moment. Given my character's backstory, it's probably actively killing them. Of course, those last two are pretty hard to pull off, so in the meantime, my character is mostly going to be trying to indirectly hamper the party's progress, possibly stalling them for long enough for the BBEG to deal with them on their own terms.