I currently play a level 5, it's split 2 levels into cleric, 3 levels into sorcerer. He is a silver half-dragon who is devoted to healing and the Platinum Dragon Bahamut. However, because of some backtory reasons and some godly shenanigangs, he is stupidly strong and good at killing stuff. Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM. But also, I really want to play grave domain. What should I do? Grave domain doesn't really fit my character, and I still want to be able to basically negate all damage, but also, venerability to all damage and we have a rouge in the party. What should I do?
I mean, that's fair, but I'm the only healer in the party besides the Artificer, Alchemist for that, but still. The extra couple healing really helps. But also, I really like the ambiance of Grave domain, but also also, it doesn't fit my character a lot, at least right now. I feel like when you can cancel the nat 20, thats when it would make more sense. Also, we have a Wizard in the party who looks like their going to go into necromancy, and I don't want to encroach and just completely debuff them to all hell, but that's what looks like what will happen either way.
I mean, you have a point, I just don't want to basically become the powerhouse of the group. I want to heal, never played a healer before, and because of character details, he might switch subclasses to lean away from healer, but I feel like this is a good middle ground. But, if I did this, I could heal less, but be stronger. I don't want to make my guy much more powerful, because I know I could, but I like this party and don't want to straight up bully the DM.
1. How would you even debuff the necromancer in your party with your choice? I've forgotten what grave domain gets besides the unconscious max healing, crit canceling, bonus action spare the dying, and path to the grave. Do you get some aura that dunks on undead and so you'd debuff his skellies just by being around or something?
2. I mean having a rogue in the party with your channel divinity sounds like a good thing, not a bad thing. You would be "fair to the other players" by having abilities that boost them, which is just what this is.
3. The DM is letting you multiclass in the first place, they should accept that powerful combos are going to happen. They accepted the ToS without reading it if they get somehow upset about it. Don't worry about it to much yourself.
4. You aren't bullying the DM. If the DM is allowing multiclassing in the first place then they have accepted that they have to do the work to make the challenges harder for your group. Multiclassing is optional, and breaks the balance of the vanilla game. If you're more worried about it, ask the DM how they feel about the combats so far and ask the other players. Sometimes us DMs feel like a combat wasn't challenging at all because no one went down, but if we look at the sheets afterward we see that several folks were at near death or used up a lot of resources. Maybe the players think stuff is too hard right now and the DM doesn't know.
5. You say you're 2 cleric already, don't you already have your subclass anyway?
6.The Grave Domain is a support subclass. You'd mostly be supporting people with your class abilities. It will only matter if you decide to go into melee with stuff like spirit guardians or if you wear medium armor. You'll be able to quicken spell spirit guardians and then immediately dodge action on turn 1 (at higher cleric levels obvi, unless you're divine soul or something), which is a great combo. But also you have a lot of sorc levels and so you have sorc hit points, you're not as hardy as a full cleric would be. So even if you got your scale mail and 14 dex and shield and then cast the shield spell for your grand AC of 23, you'll still be an easy kick if anybody does hit you, especially if they need a crit to hit.
"Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM"
Yeah....just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there. You can't make OP chars and "be fair to other players and the DM" at the same time.
You can if everyone else is also making OP characters, then the table is still balanced and the DM can scale encounters to match.
Then you are into an arms race, and when it is all said and done, nothing changed, and there are no OP chars. It is the same concept of "everyone is beautiful". The word loses its meaning. If all the chars are OP, and the DM has scaled up the encounters, then there are really no OP chars, are there? And we are back to "why have an OP char at all?"
Exactly right. But people want to make the most Oest P characters they can and don’t realize it’s all just an illusion, and since it harms nothing to let them live in their fantasy within the fantasy I say let them. 🤷♂️
5. You say you're 2 cleric already, don't you already have your subclass anyway?
Yeah, I'm confused by this whole post. Plus, I thought Twilight cleric was supposed to be the OP one, not Grave cleric
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM"
Yeah....just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there. You can't make OP chars and "be fair to other players and the DM" at the same time.
You can if everyone else is also making OP characters, then the table is still balanced and the DM can scale encounters to match.
Then you are into an arms race, and when it is all said and done, nothing changed, and there are no OP chars. It is the same concept of "everyone is beautiful". The word loses its meaning. If all the chars are OP, and the DM has scaled up the encounters, then there are really no OP chars, are there? And we are back to "why have an OP char at all?"
Exactly right. But people want to make the most Oest P characters they can and don’t realize it’s all just an illusion, and since it harms nothing to let them live in their fantasy within the fantasy I say let them. 🤷♂️
You are far more charitable than I. I prefer explaining the logic, or lack of logic, of their viewpoint. But people don't like logic. Feelings being hurt resonates more than seeing logic.
Arguing the issue never got me anywhere with the min-maxers, so now I let them min-max and just raise the difficulty of everything to compensate. That’s part of why I call DMing an exercise in “juggling smoke and mirrors.”
"Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM"
Yeah....just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there. You can't make OP chars and "be fair to other players and the DM" at the same time.
You can if everyone else is also making OP characters, then the table is still balanced and the DM can scale encounters to match.
Then you are into an arms race, and when it is all said and done, nothing changed, and there are no OP chars. It is the same concept of "everyone is beautiful". The word loses its meaning. If all the chars are OP, and the DM has scaled up the encounters, then there are really no OP chars, are there? And we are back to "why have an OP char at all?"
Exactly right. But people want to make the most Oest P characters they can and don’t realize it’s all just an illusion, and since it harms nothing to let them live in their fantasy within the fantasy I say let them. 🤷♂️
You are far more charitable than I. I prefer explaining the logic, or lack of logic, of their viewpoint. But people don't like logic. Feelings being hurt resonates more than seeing logic.
Arguing the issue never got me anywhere with the min-maxers, so now I let them min-max and just raise the difficulty of everything to compensate. That’s part of why I call DMing an exercise in “juggling smoke and mirrors.”
Fair enough.
It simply angers me that players think that "Well, if my char is out of whack, the DM can simply adjust." It is saying 'I really don't care if I make more work for the DM."
The DM has a lot on their plate. You know that. Extra work to indulge some player that demands to be special, well, that is not something I want to do.
It sucks when one or some of the players think that way, whether “out of wack” as in OP, or as in just a joke. But as long as the whole table plays the same way it really isn’t that bad. If all the PCs are 1337, adjusting combat etc to match is as easy as raising HP/AC & DCs. If the whole table is beer & pretzels then adjusting is as easy as lowering those things. It’s only a haste if 2 or 3 people are playing average PCs, 1 is playing a 1337 DPR machine, and the last one is playing Krusty the Klown. That’s when it’s time to have a conversation.
"Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM"
Yeah....just a bit of cognitive dissonance going on there. You can't make OP chars and "be fair to other players and the DM" at the same time.
You can if everyone else is also making OP characters, then the table is still balanced and the DM can scale encounters to match.
Then you are into an arms race, and when it is all said and done, nothing changed, and there are no OP chars. It is the same concept of "everyone is beautiful". The word loses its meaning. If all the chars are OP, and the DM has scaled up the encounters, then there are really no OP chars, are there? And we are back to "why have an OP char at all?"
Exactly right. But people want to make the most Oest P characters they can and don’t realize it’s all just an illusion, and since it harms nothing to let them live in their fantasy within the fantasy I say let them. 🤷♂️
You are far more charitable than I. I prefer explaining the logic, or lack of logic, of their viewpoint. But people don't like logic. Feelings being hurt resonates more than seeing logic.
Arguing the issue never got me anywhere with the min-maxers, so now I let them min-max and just raise the difficulty of everything to compensate. That’s part of why I call DMing an exercise in “juggling smoke and mirrors.”
Fair enough.
It simply angers me that players think that "Well, if my char is out of whack, the DM can simply adjust." It is saying 'I really don't care if I make more work for the DM."
The DM has a lot on their plate. You know that. Extra work to indulge some player that demands to be special, well, that is not something I want to do.
personally, if the DM allows the optional rules like feats and multiclassing (or any homebrew) then they have signed themselves up for more work already. That comes with the territory. Don't allow these things in the game if you want less work, as since they're optional that means WotC doesn't balance around them. So all their published content is weaker against multiclassed, feat-wielding PCs. The PCs clean up eventually, but multiclassing & feats accelerates it.
I currently play a level 5, it's split 2 levels into cleric, 3 levels into sorcerer. He is a silver half-dragon who is devoted to healing and the Platinum Dragon Bahamut. However, because of some backtory reasons and some godly shenanigangs, he is stupidly strong and good at killing stuff. Now, out of game, I love to make OP characters, and I want to be fair to other players and the DM. But also, I really want to play grave domain. What should I do?
Grave domain doesn't really fit my character, and I still want to be able to basically negate all damage, but also, venerability to all damage and we have a rouge in the party. What should I do?
Since you love being OP then go with Grave domain.
If you love RP or sticking to your PC's philosophy then that might not be the best choice.
Go with Grave Domain.
Aside from the giddy feeling one gets when they play a character they WANT to play…
…Grave Domain can actually be very similar to a Life Domain cleric.
I realize how that sounds; but still.
Both subclasses value life: it’s just that Life Domain champions vitality, growth, and healing…
…while Grave Domain respects life; but understands that death is also a huge part of it.
Two sides of the same platinum coin.
I mean, that's fair, but I'm the only healer in the party besides the Artificer, Alchemist for that, but still. The extra couple healing really helps. But also, I really like the ambiance of Grave domain, but also also, it doesn't fit my character a lot, at least right now. I feel like when you can cancel the nat 20, thats when it would make more sense. Also, we have a Wizard in the party who looks like their going to go into necromancy, and I don't want to encroach and just completely debuff them to all hell, but that's what looks like what will happen either way.
I mean, you have a point, I just don't want to basically become the powerhouse of the group. I want to heal, never played a healer before, and because of character details, he might switch subclasses to lean away from healer, but I feel like this is a good middle ground. But, if I did this, I could heal less, but be stronger. I don't want to make my guy much more powerful, because I know I could, but I like this party and don't want to straight up bully the DM.
1. How would you even debuff the necromancer in your party with your choice? I've forgotten what grave domain gets besides the unconscious max healing, crit canceling, bonus action spare the dying, and path to the grave. Do you get some aura that dunks on undead and so you'd debuff his skellies just by being around or something?
2. I mean having a rogue in the party with your channel divinity sounds like a good thing, not a bad thing. You would be "fair to the other players" by having abilities that boost them, which is just what this is.
3. The DM is letting you multiclass in the first place, they should accept that powerful combos are going to happen. They accepted the ToS without reading it if they get somehow upset about it. Don't worry about it to much yourself.
4. You aren't bullying the DM. If the DM is allowing multiclassing in the first place then they have accepted that they have to do the work to make the challenges harder for your group. Multiclassing is optional, and breaks the balance of the vanilla game. If you're more worried about it, ask the DM how they feel about the combats so far and ask the other players. Sometimes us DMs feel like a combat wasn't challenging at all because no one went down, but if we look at the sheets afterward we see that several folks were at near death or used up a lot of resources. Maybe the players think stuff is too hard right now and the DM doesn't know.
5. You say you're 2 cleric already, don't you already have your subclass anyway?
6.The Grave Domain is a support subclass. You'd mostly be supporting people with your class abilities. It will only matter if you decide to go into melee with stuff like spirit guardians or if you wear medium armor. You'll be able to quicken spell spirit guardians and then immediately dodge action on turn 1 (at higher cleric levels obvi, unless you're divine soul or something), which is a great combo. But also you have a lot of sorc levels and so you have sorc hit points, you're not as hardy as a full cleric would be. So even if you got your scale mail and 14 dex and shield and then cast the shield spell for your grand AC of 23, you'll still be an easy kick if anybody does hit you, especially if they need a crit to hit.
7. Play the character you want.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
You can if everyone else is also making OP characters, then the table is still balanced and the DM can scale encounters to match.
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All clerics can heal, and healing in combat is mostly just healing word to pick up a fallen comrade. Any cleric can do that.
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Exactly right. But people want to make the most Oest P characters they can and don’t realize it’s all just an illusion, and since it harms nothing to let them live in their fantasy within the fantasy I say let them. 🤷♂️
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Yeah, I'm confused by this whole post. Plus, I thought Twilight cleric was supposed to be the OP one, not Grave cleric
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Arguing the issue never got me anywhere with the min-maxers, so now I let them min-max and just raise the difficulty of everything to compensate. That’s part of why I call DMing an exercise in “juggling smoke and mirrors.”
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It sucks when one or some of the players think that way, whether “out of wack” as in OP, or as in just a joke. But as long as the whole table plays the same way it really isn’t that bad. If all the PCs are 1337, adjusting combat etc to match is as easy as raising HP/AC & DCs. If the whole table is beer & pretzels then adjusting is as easy as lowering those things. It’s only a haste if 2 or 3 people are playing average PCs, 1 is playing a 1337 DPR machine, and the last one is playing Krusty the Klown. That’s when it’s time to have a conversation.
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Lot's of people think Grave is also pretty powerful. It's a very good subclass, but definitely got knocked down because of the tasha's options.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
personally, if the DM allows the optional rules like feats and multiclassing (or any homebrew) then they have signed themselves up for more work already. That comes with the territory. Don't allow these things in the game if you want less work, as since they're optional that means WotC doesn't balance around them. So all their published content is weaker against multiclassed, feat-wielding PCs. The PCs clean up eventually, but multiclassing & feats accelerates it.
Er ek geng, þat er í þeim skóm er ek valda.
UwU
See what I mean?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/dungeon-masters-only/138066-starting-ability-scores?comment=22
Start at that👆post and read forward.
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