In the scheme of things, it seems like there’s much bigger fish to fry from a quality control standpoint. Especially when pretty much everyone is just going to take wish as their level 9 spell and call it good.
Well, there are a quite notable number of overpowered spells at level 9 to choose from. For example, meteor swarm hilariously exceeds the damage guidelines (guideline: 14d6. Actual damage: 40d6).
Foresight is the only Divination wizard spell at 9th level.
Woop woop, advantage on all attacks/saves/ability checks for 8 hours for ONE person (as well as can't be surprised, and attacks against them have disadvantage).
Foresight is the only Divination wizard spell at 9th level.
Woop woop, advantage on all attacks/saves/ability checks for 8 hours for ONE person (as well as can't be surprised, and attacks against them have disadvantage).
Not exactly a 9th level ability really.
A +3 / +4 to all attacks, saves, ability checks, and AC for a full adventuring day seems pretty powerful to me. Foresight is my Bard's intended spell for when he gets there in four more levels.
As with most illusion magic, Weird gets a lot better if your group is actually roleplaying in their roleplaying game, not just treating the illusion as a minor inconvenience (frightened is a pretty mediocre condition as written) and some possibly avoidable damage. Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there.
Is it the best ninth level spell? No. Is it better than some of the trap choices at ninth level like Power Word Kill? Yes.
All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle.
Foresight is the only Divination wizard spell at 9th level.
Woop woop, advantage on all attacks/saves/ability checks for 8 hours for ONE person (as well as can't be surprised, and attacks against them have disadvantage).
Not exactly a 9th level ability really.
It lasts 8 hours without concentration. I would call it pretty solid.
As with most illusion magic, Weird gets a lot better if your group is actually roleplaying in their roleplaying game, not just treating the illusion as a minor inconvenience (frightened is a pretty mediocre condition as written) and some possibly avoidable damage. Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there.
Is it the best ninth level spell? No. Is it better than some of the trap choices at ninth level like Power Word Kill? Yes.
All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle.
I'm not saying it's the worst spell in the game - it absolutely is not - but you're missing some key parts of the analysis for unclear reasons. Let's break it down assuming the same optimal table you just described, since you claimed it's "not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle":
Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there.
It's not every creature, not that I want to deny the sheer size of a 60 foot diameter sphere (65x65x65 cube on a grid) you can drop down at 120 feet. One of the reasons you need to be careful about assuming the target count is that this is simply AOE Phantasmal Killer, which is a fourth level spell; if Phantasmal Killer's scaling was target count rather than psychic damage dealt, like Cause Fear (because this is a standard way for such spells to scale), it would target 6 creatures at once, so Weird has to target at least 7 creatures to out-compete a scaled-up level 4 spell.
Note that Cause Fear induces a "sense of mortality" and it's unclear why that should be less bad than "deepest fears", making comparisons directly apt, as Cause Fear hits 9 targets at level 9.
Vis a vis my point above: it's simultaneously only a finite number of creatures and potentially far too many. The worse the consequences of Weird happening to you, the bigger a deal it is that the spell is a huge sphere with friendly fire on. Note that e.g. Illusory Dragon turns the friendly fire off the fear: it won't frighten anyone you tell it not to. Causing worst fears in the entire battlefield, as you describe it, is absolutely possible with this spell in cramped quarters - and it's a lot harder to sculpt an illusion than an evocation spell to keep the caster safe inside it, let alone their allies.
The chaos you're describing is extremely short, since each target gets a Wisdom save for every potential turn they'll spend under the effect. Fear is level three and uses the same reference to "worst fears"; if your goal is the chaos you're describing, you're a lot better off with the Fear spell most of the time, even though Fear won't scale and will simply waste the L9 slot.
Theoretically, one of the reasons you want to frighten an enemy is limiting its movement, as you mentioned when you discussed fight or flight responses. Weird has the absolutely crippling problem of not telling the person reading the spell where the frightened creature doesn't want to approach (or, at the optimal table, potentially flee): there's no apparent way to tell where, in the creature's mind, the manifestation of its fear is. Especially if you're at table where you're trying to honor this spell by roleplaying out your fear, you need some basis for figuring out where the fear is, and the basis you come up with is going to directly impact how the spell performs. Cause Fear and Fear, mentioned above, make the target frightened of the caster, as do Wrathful Smite and Eyebite; Symbol and Antipathy/Sympathy make creatures frightened of the spell's target, and Illusory Dragon makes creatures frightened of a manifested spell object with a determinable location. Phantasmal Killer and Weird are the only spells in the game that make a creature frightened and then you have no way to figure out where they don't want to approach (or potentially want to flee).
All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle.
The capstone spell for an illusionist is Mirage Arcane - Malleable Illusions and Illusory Reality both work extremely well with it and neither works in any way with Weird except in the corner case where the illusionist both has some way to know what a target's deepest fear is and when that fear includes an object that can be made real with Illusory Reality.
Mental Prison and Programmed Illusion both have excellent synergy with Illusionist abilities as well, if you need to cast a spell in 1 action.
Ignoring illusionists specifically, the most broadly powerful illusion spell in the game is simulacrum, something so very true that any wizard that doesn't make it their business to get it into their spellbook is wizarding wrong.
Weird is a bad spell for illusionists and a bad spell for triggering the worst fears of the targets, and so it's bad on both levels at once, as well. As a general rule, no Warlock should ever learn it as their Mystic Arcanum, and while a Wizard might put it in their spellbook because why not, no Wizard should ever bother preparing it over superior options for the same goal - because lower-level spells are better, all wizards are better off casting wish and simulating a lower-level illusion spell than they are casting weird (as noted above, especially Illusionists - Mirage Arcane will straight-up outperform Weird for causing battlefield chaos that the illusionist can control than Weird ever could).
This does bring up an interesting question for me. frightened says:
The creature can't willingly move closer to the source of its fear.
But with weird or phantasmal killer, the source of that fear is an illusion produced within their own mind. So can they move at all? Wouldn't "the source of their fear" be in any and every direction they looked?
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This does bring up an interesting question for me. frightened says:
The creature can't willingly move closer to the source of its fear.
But with weird or phantasmal killer, the source of that fear is an illusion produced within their own mind. So can they move at all? Wouldn't "the source of their fear" be in any and every direction they looked?
I think people focus too much on player stats and mechanics - DPS in combat and stuff.
This spell allows an evil character walk into a village or town square and instantly murder a lot of people. At first they all become overcome by great fear then they die. All with no indication at all that the evil character did it other than being nearby without getting affected.
It can also be planned in advance with programmed illusions and Mirage Arcane to mislead targets into a big group and boom, mass illusion caused death - again with very little if any suspicion on that character.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
Not all spells that do damage are geared for combat or against enemies of similar levels.
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It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
This spell offers nothing in that scenario.
NPCs may not have classes mechanically, but they are still usually built on familiar templates, and NPC spellcasters still generally cast known spells
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This spell allows an evil character walk into a village or town square and instantly murder a lot of people. At first they all become overcome by great fear then they die. All with no indication at all that the evil character did it other than being nearby without getting affected.
The spell has verbal and somatic components, and there's no evidence for it being any less visible than any other psychic damage spell.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
This spell offers nothing in that scenario.
NPCs may not have classes mechanically, but they are still usually built on familiar templates, and NPC spellcasters still generally cast known spells
It doesn't change the fact that a GM running an NPC doesn't need an official spell. If they want the NPC to do something, then the NPC does it.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
This spell offers nothing in that scenario.
NPCs may not have classes mechanically, but they are still usually built on familiar templates, and NPC spellcasters still generally cast known spells
It doesn't change the fact that a GM running an NPC doesn't need an official spell. If they want the NPC to do something, then the NPC does it.
And having a listed spell that does that thing gives the PCs a framework for understanding what the heck happened
We get it, you hate the spell and anyone who doesn't whole-heartedly agree it should be stricken from existence
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
This spell offers nothing in that scenario.
NPCs may not have classes mechanically, but they are still usually built on familiar templates, and NPC spellcasters still generally cast known spells
It doesn't change the fact that a GM running an NPC doesn't need an official spell. If they want the NPC to do something, then the NPC does it.
And having a listed spell that does that thing gives the PCs a framework for understanding what the heck happened
We get it, you hate the spell and anyone who doesn't whole-heartedly agree it should be stricken from existence
Stop. You are trying to make this personal. The thread isn't about me.
I can see why Weird could be considered for a 9th level spell... it covers a pretty big area, has no limitation on how many creatures it can effect, and it outputs solid damage round after round with no additional action on the part of the spellcaster (as opposed to Illusory Dragon, which requires a Bonus Action each round to trigger it). That said... it sure does give a lot of Saving Throw opportunities to break out of it. I think if the initial "burst" did damage it wouldn't feel like a bad use of a 9th level spell slot, but the fact that a creature affected by it needs to fail one saving throw just for it to take hold, and then another saving throw before actually taking damage really hampers its effectiveness.
That said, I still understand the logic behind why someone would think this was a powerful enough spell to make it 9th level, especially for a spell that was created for the PHB when 5e first launched. I think since then, the game has expanded quite a bit and other, more potent spells have shifted the meta and something that was probably quite useful when the game launched just doesn't hold up any more. We see that in a lot of things... a few of the original subclasses are still considered top tier, but these days you only see someone playing as, for example, a Berserker Barbarian only if they don't have access to pretty much any other Barbarian subclass.
I think people focus too much on player stats and mechanics - DPS in combat and stuff.
This spell allows an evil character walk into a village or town square and instantly murder a lot of people. At first they all become overcome by great fear then they die. All with no indication at all that the evil character did it other than being nearby without getting affected.
It can also be planned in advance with programmed illusions and Mirage Arcane to mislead targets into a big group and boom, mass illusion caused death - again with very little if any suspicion on that character.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
Not all spells that do damage are geared for combat or against enemies of similar levels.
And more importantly, since it's a spell, your party might be able to Counterspell it if they encounter the BBE who uses it, and if they don't, the fact that it's Concentration makes it a race to damage the BBE enough to save party members affected by it.
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Yeah, weird is not a very good spell. Frightened is actually a really weak condition in 5e, the person doesn't even have to run away.4d10 damage isn't great for a ninth level spell and the odds of the enemy even actually taking that damage is low. In my opinion at least, weird should be a 7th level spell MAX.
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I mean, let's assume that it has the golden goal of 65% hit rate. You fail the first lot, and you become frightened effectively for one of your turns. You have to fail a second one to get the bit that's nice - so that's about a 40% chance. if you manage to get 10 people in your 30ft radius, that's 6 or 7 that will be frightened of you for a round, and of those 4 will take 4d10 damage and be frightened for a second round. 3 for three rounds and a second lot of 4d10, 2 for 4 rounds, 1 for 6 rounds. Total, we're talking 242 damage if you get 10 people in the initial spell. Compare that to Meteor Swarm that does 115.5 average damage per target, and give you four 40ft radius spheres to hit them with (as opposed to the single 30ft radius of Weird. That's an awful lot of damage (and target area) to sacrifice in order to get the Frightened condition - not to mention that all the damage is upfront, so more likely to kill them before they get to you and slit your throat while their health whittles away.
It really doesn't seem a L9 slot spell to me, especially as if you can get Weird, you can get Meteor Swarm. Unless you're fighting in a custard factory, maybe then I'd go for Weird?
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Well, there are a quite notable number of overpowered spells at level 9 to choose from. For example, meteor swarm hilariously exceeds the damage guidelines (guideline: 14d6. Actual damage: 40d6).
Foresight is the only Divination wizard spell at 9th level.
Woop woop, advantage on all attacks/saves/ability checks for 8 hours for ONE person (as well as can't be surprised, and attacks against them have disadvantage).
Not exactly a 9th level ability really.
A +3 / +4 to all attacks, saves, ability checks, and AC for a full adventuring day seems pretty powerful to me. Foresight is my Bard's intended spell for when he gets there in four more levels.
As with most illusion magic, Weird gets a lot better if your group is actually roleplaying in their roleplaying game, not just treating the illusion as a minor inconvenience (frightened is a pretty mediocre condition as written) and some possibly avoidable damage. Roleplaying the manifestation of one’s deepest fears for every creature on the battlefield - and the inevitable resultant chaos - could drastically change the course of the battle itself, as combatants each act out their flight or fight response to things that are not there.
Is it the best ninth level spell? No. Is it better than some of the trap choices at ninth level like Power Word Kill? Yes.
All told, I wish the capstone spell for an illusionist gave the caster a bit more control over what they generate, but it’s not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle.
It lasts 8 hours without concentration. I would call it pretty solid.
I'm not saying it's the worst spell in the game - it absolutely is not - but you're missing some key parts of the analysis for unclear reasons. Let's break it down assuming the same optimal table you just described, since you claimed it's "not exactly bad for your biggest spell of that playstyle":
Weird is a bad spell for illusionists and a bad spell for triggering the worst fears of the targets, and so it's bad on both levels at once, as well. As a general rule, no Warlock should ever learn it as their Mystic Arcanum, and while a Wizard might put it in their spellbook because why not, no Wizard should ever bother preparing it over superior options for the same goal - because lower-level spells are better, all wizards are better off casting wish and simulating a lower-level illusion spell than they are casting weird (as noted above, especially Illusionists - Mirage Arcane will straight-up outperform Weird for causing battlefield chaos that the illusionist can control than Weird ever could).
This does bring up an interesting question for me. frightened says:
But with weird or phantasmal killer, the source of that fear is an illusion produced within their own mind. So can they move at all? Wouldn't "the source of their fear" be in any and every direction they looked?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, they should be all but paralyzed with fear.
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I think people focus too much on player stats and mechanics - DPS in combat and stuff.
This spell allows an evil character walk into a village or town square and instantly murder a lot of people. At first they all become overcome by great fear then they die. All with no indication at all that the evil character did it other than being nearby without getting affected.
It can also be planned in advance with programmed illusions and Mirage Arcane to mislead targets into a big group and boom, mass illusion caused death - again with very little if any suspicion on that character.
It's not a spell for your player heroes. It's a spell for evil characters and provides great story elements.
Not all spells that do damage are geared for combat or against enemies of similar levels.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
NPCs don't have classes. If the GM wants them to walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death, then they will walk into a village or town square and scare everyone to death.
This spell offers nothing in that scenario.
NPCs may not have classes mechanically, but they are still usually built on familiar templates, and NPC spellcasters still generally cast known spells
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The spell has verbal and somatic components, and there's no evidence for it being any less visible than any other psychic damage spell.
It doesn't change the fact that a GM running an NPC doesn't need an official spell. If they want the NPC to do something, then the NPC does it.
And having a listed spell that does that thing gives the PCs a framework for understanding what the heck happened
We get it, you hate the spell and anyone who doesn't whole-heartedly agree it should be stricken from existence
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Stop. You are trying to make this personal. The thread isn't about me.
I can see why Weird could be considered for a 9th level spell... it covers a pretty big area, has no limitation on how many creatures it can effect, and it outputs solid damage round after round with no additional action on the part of the spellcaster (as opposed to Illusory Dragon, which requires a Bonus Action each round to trigger it). That said... it sure does give a lot of Saving Throw opportunities to break out of it. I think if the initial "burst" did damage it wouldn't feel like a bad use of a 9th level spell slot, but the fact that a creature affected by it needs to fail one saving throw just for it to take hold, and then another saving throw before actually taking damage really hampers its effectiveness.
That said, I still understand the logic behind why someone would think this was a powerful enough spell to make it 9th level, especially for a spell that was created for the PHB when 5e first launched. I think since then, the game has expanded quite a bit and other, more potent spells have shifted the meta and something that was probably quite useful when the game launched just doesn't hold up any more. We see that in a lot of things... a few of the original subclasses are still considered top tier, but these days you only see someone playing as, for example, a Berserker Barbarian only if they don't have access to pretty much any other Barbarian subclass.
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And more importantly, since it's a spell, your party might be able to Counterspell it if they encounter the BBE who uses it, and if they don't, the fact that it's Concentration makes it a race to damage the BBE enough to save party members affected by it.
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Yeah, weird is not a very good spell. Frightened is actually a really weak condition in 5e, the person doesn't even have to run away.4d10 damage isn't great for a ninth level spell and the odds of the enemy even actually taking that damage is low. In my opinion at least, weird should be a 7th level spell MAX.
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HERE.It does seem to suck.
I mean, let's assume that it has the golden goal of 65% hit rate. You fail the first lot, and you become frightened effectively for one of your turns. You have to fail a second one to get the bit that's nice - so that's about a 40% chance. if you manage to get 10 people in your 30ft radius, that's 6 or 7 that will be frightened of you for a round, and of those 4 will take 4d10 damage and be frightened for a second round. 3 for three rounds and a second lot of 4d10, 2 for 4 rounds, 1 for 6 rounds. Total, we're talking 242 damage if you get 10 people in the initial spell. Compare that to Meteor Swarm that does 115.5 average damage per target, and give you four 40ft radius spheres to hit them with (as opposed to the single 30ft radius of Weird. That's an awful lot of damage (and target area) to sacrifice in order to get the Frightened condition - not to mention that all the damage is upfront, so more likely to kill them before they get to you and slit your throat while their health whittles away.
It really doesn't seem a L9 slot spell to me, especially as if you can get Weird, you can get Meteor Swarm. Unless you're fighting in a custard factory, maybe then I'd go for Weird?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
It's strange to me that people are bemoaning that this Illusion spell doesn't deal as much raw damage as the ultimate Evocation spell.