Right, but the DMG tells you how to calculate the treasure based on CR, and moreso gives you options for having things like a "combined horde" worthy of taking the whole dungeon, etc. It's streamlining using CR as the table reference.
Right, but the DMG tells you how to calculate the treasure based on CR, and moreso gives you options for having things like a "combined horde" worthy of taking the whole dungeon, etc. It's streamlining using CR as the table reference.
Just used that system for a dungeon myself.
Yes, but how many people don’t look through the DMG? If it was right in the MM, that would make it easier for newer DMs to put 2 & 2 together.
Right, but the DMG tells you how to calculate the treasure based on CR, and moreso gives you options for having things like a "combined horde" worthy of taking the whole dungeon, etc. It's streamlining using CR as the table reference.
Just used that system for a dungeon myself.
Yes, but how many people don’t look through the DMG?
Too many. If the DM doesn't read the DMG and then makes a mistake and blames the Monster Manual for that, it's the DMs fault. WotC cannot force DMs to read the DMG and use the tools it it.
If it was right in the MM, that would make it easier for newer DMs to put 2 & 2 together.
Sure, but the reason it was in the DMG and not the Monster Manual was because it's supposed to be before the treasure/magic items section for easy reference. And the Monster Manual is already the longest book in 5e, IIRC.
My point wasn't that 5e's Core Rulebooks are perfectly laid out or that they couldn't do more to support newer DMs. It was to say that what they were specifically complaining about/asking for was infeasible and already granted in another form.
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Right, but the DMG tells you how to calculate the treasure based on CR, and moreso gives you options for having things like a "combined horde" worthy of taking the whole dungeon, etc. It's streamlining using CR as the table reference.
Just used that system for a dungeon myself.
Yes, but how many people don’t look through the DMG? If it was right in the MM, that would make it easier for newer DMs to put 2 & 2 together.
If you're a GM and you don't read through the DMG at least enough to know what the basics are, that's not WotC's fault.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yes, but how many people don’t look through the DMG? If it was right in the MM, that would make it easier for newer DMs to put 2 & 2 together.
By the time you've finished putting everything in the MM required to use it well, half the DMG is gone.
Yeah. I could see equally valid complaints that the Monster Manual doesn't give guidelines for designing dungeons for the monsters in it, or random encounter tables for different levels and locations, or how to change the race an NPC stat block has, or the rules for using monsters in hordes, or the average personality traits of different monsters, guidelines for minions that each boss monster should have, or how many monsters of each CR a party of a certain level should face on the average adventuring day, or for describing the home-planes of the extraplanar monsters found in the book. If you gave all of that stuff to the Monster Manual, the DMG would lose a ton of pages and the Monster Manual would become ludicrously big.
Books like Fizban's Treasury of Dragons can go more in-depth to specific monster types and their tactics, personalities, specialize hordes, and minions. Expecting the Monster Manual to do that for every monster in it is a bit ridiculous.
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You’re all telling’ me they couldn’t find room for one line on each statblock indicating which table to roll on for the monster’s treasure?!? They had all that room for fancy borders, but not enough room for “Treasure Table X” next to or under CR and PB? Really? Really? I find that hard to believe.
You’re all telling’ me they couldn’t find room for one line on each statblock indicating which table to roll on for the monster’s treasure?!? They had all that room for fancy borders, but not enough room for “Treasure Table X” next to or under CR and PB? Really? Really? I find that hard to believe.
That would just wind up being "Treasure: standard" for almost everything.
You’re all telling’ me they couldn’t find room for one line on each statblock indicating which table to roll on for the monster’s treasure?!? They had all that room for fancy borders, but not enough room for “Treasure Table X” next to or under CR and PB? Really? Really? I find that hard to believe.
That would just wind up being "Treasure: standard" for almost everything.
Yeah. 5e only notes individual treasure near monster stat blocks when it's important/notable to them. Like how Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes gives mechanics for Githyanki's Silver Swords and the Infernal Tack for the Narzugon. It would be redundant and space-filling to include that extra line, and the core rulebooks were written under the assumption that DMs would, you know, read all of the core rules in order to properly run the game.
Treasure information should only be noted when it's specific to that monster, isn't statted out in the core rulebooks (so the Gnome Ceremorph section of Rime of the Frostmaiden doesn't have to give stats for the Laser Pistol), and is worth noting. We don't need a section in every monster description in the Monster Manual saying "the average goblin has 2d6 silver pieces" or "refer to the Magic Item Table Omega in the DMG for the equipment the Ancient Gumdrop Dragon has in their Hoard". If it's something minor and non-specific to that monster (like money and mundane items not included in the stat block), it doesn't need to be listed. If it's just telling you to refer to information contained in the DMG, that can be included in the DMG or in the preface to the book's content. If it is specific to that monster and worth noting (or is a specifically-designed NPC for a prebuilt module/adventure, like Xanathar for Dragon Heist), then and only then should the monster description give it special treatment. Otherwise it's just wasted and redundant space that would be taking away from having more useful content in the book.
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If I buy a book that contains monsters to run, I'd assume that book gives me everything I need to run those monsters, including what loot that comes from killing them. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't put a note in the beginning of the book saying something: "Monsters often have loot that can be taken from them after they've been defeated. For most monsters, this loot will be generic, see Appendix E (p331) for a table of potential loot. Any exceptions will be noted in the individual statblocks." Then have the table in the MM rather than the DMG (or both).
That way, when I buy the MM, I have what I need to run the encounter properly. I don't have to drag two lots of books out to deal with the encounter. Also, I've been playing for almost a year now - I still don't have everything memorised. There are around 1,000 pages in the core rules alone, and altogether around what, 1,500 pages of stuff when you include the expansions? That's really unreasonable to expect new DMs in particular to memorise and know where everything is.
I'm with Sposta, that table should be in the MM. It doesn't have to be specified in every statblock, but it should be in the book. Saying "it's you're own fault because the information is there somewhere amongst 1,500 pages spread over 5 books with no unified contents listing" is basically gaslighting. WotC needs to be more organised, and loot tables would make much more sense to be with the monsters that use them. Maybe you guys have been at it for too long to remember or were introduced very incrementally, but when you're new to the game, it's tons of information and remembering what information is even present is hard enough. Expecting people to read information spread over multiple books and not have it swamped out is unreasonable.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Hm... for me and my style of DM'ing, monster stat blocks have zero connection to treasure and lootable items. This is all planned out while building the encounter and relies solely on the narrative behind the encounter. Even random encounters have pre-planned treasure, that can be found.
Treasure is determined by level and milestones and then distributed throughout the plot points, where it makes the most sense from a narrative point of view.
So, I do not think, that there would be any advantage on having treasure tables mentioned in the monster stats.
Hm... for me and my style of DM'ing, monster stat blocks have zero connection to treasure and lootable items. This is all planned out while building the encounter and relies solely on the narrative behind the encounter. Even random encounters have pre-planned treasure, that can be found.
Treasure is determined by level and milestones and then distributed throughout the plot points, where it makes the most sense from a narrative point of view.
So, I do not think, that there would be any advantage on having treasure tables mentioned in the monster stats.
The discussion is about monsters dropping loot. You're perfectly welcome to use your method, but saying that there is no advantage to linking loot to monsters isnlike saying there is no advantage to cheap fuel because I walk everywhere. There may not be an advantage the individual (if we don't stretch the analogy too far), but that doesn't mean that there is no advantage.
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Just pulled out my old AD&D Monster Manual and looked at dragons. In the stat block for Green dragon it says Treasure Type : H, for Copper dragon Treasure Type: H, S, for Red Dragon Treasure Type: H, S, T, for Tiamat Treasure Type: H, S, T, U, for Bahamut Treasure Type: H, I, R, S, T, V.
Those are all tables for random loot generation. I doubt that would take up so much space for that one line to make the books unmanageable. And I agree, for a module/adventure I don't see why not have the treasure for a particular encounter in that adventure. Random encounter? Sure, consult the loot tables. But a preplanned encounter in an adventure should include this.
Edit: Oh, and the treasure types were listed on 1 page at the back of the MM. Columns were for 1,000's of CP, SP, EP, GP, PP, Gems, Jewelry, Maps and Magic. So the Gems, Jewelry, and Maps/Magic you had to reference the DMG.
I wasn't talking about the MM in my last post, I meant the adventure modules themselves. I recently was playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen and was surprised at the lack of mention of loot drops by encounter compared to say my copy of "Return to the Temp[le of Elemental Evil" from 2001 where room 6 of the moathouse for example has a treasure entry: "The corpse of the rogue wears masterwork studded leather armor (dyed black) and bears a longsword, a +1 shortbow, 12 arrows, 13 gp, and 3 100-gp gems (jade). Around her neck dangles a black iron triangle with an upside down yellow Y inscribed within (the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye). The dead cleric in the middle of the room wears chainmail, and bears a +1 heavy mace, a scroll of cure light wounds, 24 gp, and a lilac-colored stone mask worth 200gp (from the excavation in area 32) He also wears a symbol of the elder elemental eye." and in the next chamber: Treasure: Amid the wreckage, searchers can find a usable longsword, a gold chain worth 200gp, 34 gp, and 3 pp (search dc 22).
I like the above kind of specificity. I don't as much care for having to go to table X and roll to generate something randomly, though at least that option should indeed be mentioned somewhere outright. I agree a new DM might not even realize that each encounter is meant to drop a certain amount of treasure otherwise; as was the case with chapter 1 of Hoard of the dragon queen when I had to remind my friends friend who was dming for it that when we pause to loot the bodies of the bandits, that we actually are meant to find loot.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I've not played ToD, although it is on my rather long list of adventures to play. In the adventures I have played, it has specified if there was a loot drop and exactly what was in it. It was not every monster, but it was often enough that I assumed that it would be the only loot and there was none expected to be added to it via tables etc. I'm assuming that's the case. I find it curious that ToD is different.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In the monster manual just add the few treasure table to the back of the book [REDACTED]
If their is a random monster encounter in a module then reference the appropriate tables, for set encounters in modules list the goodies.
If I am dungeon delving and I run across a npc body that has nothing on it but stink then I think someone has been past here before. Depending on the condition of the body tells me how long ago. If its warm and fresh the others could be close if it is mostly bones then no problem. If its half eaten then we could have a bigger problem.
These are all clues adding to the suspense of the adventure.
As for suspense...
When i last DM'ed a campaign I actually had two players tracking a huge unknown animal. They were not Rangers and had very little skill in identifying the tracks,(they failed every roll) when the monster finally turned and charged them they thought it was a huge Sasquatch attacking them. (They came up with that idea all on their own.) They ran screaming back to the camp to get help against the raging beast. Only to find a moose following them out of the woods and then it turning to run away back into the woods.
Not every encounter should have loot but if the monster has pockets or eats things with pockets then yes give it a chance to have some loot.
The older MMs used to indicate which tables to roll on and how many times for each monster so DMs could prep that stuff in advance of a session.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Right, but the DMG tells you how to calculate the treasure based on CR, and moreso gives you options for having things like a "combined horde" worthy of taking the whole dungeon, etc. It's streamlining using CR as the table reference.
Just used that system for a dungeon myself.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yes, but how many people don’t look through the DMG? If it was right in the MM, that would make it easier for newer DMs to put 2 & 2 together.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
By the time you've finished putting everything in the MM required to use it well, half the DMG is gone.
Too many. If the DM doesn't read the DMG and then makes a mistake and blames the Monster Manual for that, it's the DMs fault. WotC cannot force DMs to read the DMG and use the tools it it.
Sure, but the reason it was in the DMG and not the Monster Manual was because it's supposed to be before the treasure/magic items section for easy reference. And the Monster Manual is already the longest book in 5e, IIRC.
My point wasn't that 5e's Core Rulebooks are perfectly laid out or that they couldn't do more to support newer DMs. It was to say that what they were specifically complaining about/asking for was infeasible and already granted in another form.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If you're a GM and you don't read through the DMG at least enough to know what the basics are, that's not WotC's fault.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah. I could see equally valid complaints that the Monster Manual doesn't give guidelines for designing dungeons for the monsters in it, or random encounter tables for different levels and locations, or how to change the race an NPC stat block has, or the rules for using monsters in hordes, or the average personality traits of different monsters, guidelines for minions that each boss monster should have, or how many monsters of each CR a party of a certain level should face on the average adventuring day, or for describing the home-planes of the extraplanar monsters found in the book. If you gave all of that stuff to the Monster Manual, the DMG would lose a ton of pages and the Monster Manual would become ludicrously big.
Books like Fizban's Treasury of Dragons can go more in-depth to specific monster types and their tactics, personalities, specialize hordes, and minions. Expecting the Monster Manual to do that for every monster in it is a bit ridiculous.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
You’re all telling’ me they couldn’t find room for one line on each statblock indicating which table to roll on for the monster’s treasure?!? They had all that room for fancy borders, but not enough room for “Treasure Table X” next to or under CR and PB? Really? Really? I find that hard to believe.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
That would just wind up being "Treasure: standard" for almost everything.
Yeah. 5e only notes individual treasure near monster stat blocks when it's important/notable to them. Like how Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes gives mechanics for Githyanki's Silver Swords and the Infernal Tack for the Narzugon. It would be redundant and space-filling to include that extra line, and the core rulebooks were written under the assumption that DMs would, you know, read all of the core rules in order to properly run the game.
Treasure information should only be noted when it's specific to that monster, isn't statted out in the core rulebooks (so the Gnome Ceremorph section of Rime of the Frostmaiden doesn't have to give stats for the Laser Pistol), and is worth noting. We don't need a section in every monster description in the Monster Manual saying "the average goblin has 2d6 silver pieces" or "refer to the Magic Item Table Omega in the DMG for the equipment the Ancient Gumdrop Dragon has in their Hoard". If it's something minor and non-specific to that monster (like money and mundane items not included in the stat block), it doesn't need to be listed. If it's just telling you to refer to information contained in the DMG, that can be included in the DMG or in the preface to the book's content. If it is specific to that monster and worth noting (or is a specifically-designed NPC for a prebuilt module/adventure, like Xanathar for Dragon Heist), then and only then should the monster description give it special treatment. Otherwise it's just wasted and redundant space that would be taking away from having more useful content in the book.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
If I buy a book that contains monsters to run, I'd assume that book gives me everything I need to run those monsters, including what loot that comes from killing them. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't put a note in the beginning of the book saying something: "Monsters often have loot that can be taken from them after they've been defeated. For most monsters, this loot will be generic, see Appendix E (p331) for a table of potential loot. Any exceptions will be noted in the individual statblocks." Then have the table in the MM rather than the DMG (or both).
That way, when I buy the MM, I have what I need to run the encounter properly. I don't have to drag two lots of books out to deal with the encounter. Also, I've been playing for almost a year now - I still don't have everything memorised. There are around 1,000 pages in the core rules alone, and altogether around what, 1,500 pages of stuff when you include the expansions? That's really unreasonable to expect new DMs in particular to memorise and know where everything is.
I'm with Sposta, that table should be in the MM. It doesn't have to be specified in every statblock, but it should be in the book. Saying "it's you're own fault because the information is there somewhere amongst 1,500 pages spread over 5 books with no unified contents listing" is basically gaslighting. WotC needs to be more organised, and loot tables would make much more sense to be with the monsters that use them. Maybe you guys have been at it for too long to remember or were introduced very incrementally, but when you're new to the game, it's tons of information and remembering what information is even present is hard enough. Expecting people to read information spread over multiple books and not have it swamped out is unreasonable.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Hm... for me and my style of DM'ing, monster stat blocks have zero connection to treasure and lootable items. This is all planned out while building the encounter and relies solely on the narrative behind the encounter. Even random encounters have pre-planned treasure, that can be found.
Treasure is determined by level and milestones and then distributed throughout the plot points, where it makes the most sense from a narrative point of view.
So, I do not think, that there would be any advantage on having treasure tables mentioned in the monster stats.
The discussion is about monsters dropping loot. You're perfectly welcome to use your method, but saying that there is no advantage to linking loot to monsters isnlike saying there is no advantage to cheap fuel because I walk everywhere. There may not be an advantage the individual (if we don't stretch the analogy too far), but that doesn't mean that there is no advantage.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Just pulled out my old AD&D Monster Manual and looked at dragons. In the stat block for Green dragon it says Treasure Type : H, for Copper dragon Treasure Type: H, S, for Red Dragon Treasure Type: H, S, T, for Tiamat Treasure Type: H, S, T, U, for Bahamut Treasure Type: H, I, R, S, T, V.
Those are all tables for random loot generation. I doubt that would take up so much space for that one line to make the books unmanageable. And I agree, for a module/adventure I don't see why not have the treasure for a particular encounter in that adventure. Random encounter? Sure, consult the loot tables. But a preplanned encounter in an adventure should include this.
Edit: Oh, and the treasure types were listed on 1 page at the back of the MM. Columns were for 1,000's of CP, SP, EP, GP, PP, Gems, Jewelry, Maps and Magic. So the Gems, Jewelry, and Maps/Magic you had to reference the DMG.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
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I wasn't talking about the MM in my last post, I meant the adventure modules themselves. I recently was playing Hoard of the Dragon Queen and was surprised at the lack of mention of loot drops by encounter compared to say my copy of "Return to the Temp[le of Elemental Evil" from 2001 where room 6 of the moathouse for example has a treasure entry: "The corpse of the rogue wears masterwork studded leather armor (dyed black) and bears a longsword, a +1 shortbow, 12 arrows, 13 gp, and 3 100-gp gems (jade). Around her neck dangles a black iron triangle with an upside down yellow Y inscribed within (the symbol of the Elder Elemental Eye). The dead cleric in the middle of the room wears chainmail, and bears a +1 heavy mace, a scroll of cure light wounds, 24 gp, and a lilac-colored stone mask worth 200gp (from the excavation in area 32) He also wears a symbol of the elder elemental eye." and in the next chamber: Treasure: Amid the wreckage, searchers can find a usable longsword, a gold chain worth 200gp, 34 gp, and 3 pp (search dc 22).
I like the above kind of specificity. I don't as much care for having to go to table X and roll to generate something randomly, though at least that option should indeed be mentioned somewhere outright. I agree a new DM might not even realize that each encounter is meant to drop a certain amount of treasure otherwise; as was the case with chapter 1 of Hoard of the dragon queen when I had to remind my friends friend who was dming for it that when we pause to loot the bodies of the bandits, that we actually are meant to find loot.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
I've not played ToD, although it is on my rather long list of adventures to play. In the adventures I have played, it has specified if there was a loot drop and exactly what was in it. It was not every monster, but it was often enough that I assumed that it would be the only loot and there was none expected to be added to it via tables etc. I'm assuming that's the case. I find it curious that ToD is different.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
In the monster manual just add the few treasure table to the back of the book [REDACTED]
If their is a random monster encounter in a module then reference the appropriate tables, for set encounters in modules list the goodies.
If I am dungeon delving and I run across a npc body that has nothing on it but stink then I think someone has been past here before. Depending on the condition of the body tells me how long ago. If its warm and fresh the others could be close if it is mostly bones then no problem. If its half eaten then we could have a bigger problem.
These are all clues adding to the suspense of the adventure.
As for suspense...
When i last DM'ed a campaign I actually had two players tracking a huge unknown animal. They were not Rangers and had very little skill in identifying the tracks,(they failed every roll) when the monster finally turned and charged them they thought it was a huge Sasquatch attacking them. (They came up with that idea all on their own.) They ran screaming back to the camp to get help against the raging beast. Only to find a moose following them out of the woods and then it turning to run away back into the woods.
Not every encounter should have loot but if the monster has pockets or eats things with pockets then yes give it a chance to have some loot.