I'm running a game for my friends as a DM, and we've been having a blast. However, I feel that the XP gain is way too low for the time spent playing. We've spent little over a year playing regularly, now almost at 30 sessions due to holidays and such. All my players have always had an equal amount of xp, even though we've lost a few players and gained new ones. Yet after all that time they're still at lvl 4, halfway to 5. While I understand that you can grant bonus XP, I prefer not to in case I break the system (I'm very dependant on the books, it's just my inability to let go of rules in books) It might just be me, but if I run the math I get the following:
A character that goes from lvl 4 to 5 requires 3800 xp.
When looking at the encounter rules in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I calculated the XP of "regular" encounters featuring the table for multiple creatures creatures per CR in an Excel sheet. This gives me for a lvl 4 party of 5 characters:
CR 1/8: 40* creatures Actual XP (40*25=1000 xp/5=200xp per character) CR 1/4: 20* creatures Actual XP (20*50=1000 xp/5=200xp per character) CR 1/2: 10 creatures Actual XP (10*100=1000 xp/5=200xp per character) CR 1: 5 creatures Actual XP (5*200=1000 xp/5=200xp per character) CR 2: 2 creatures Actual XP (2*450=900 xp/5=180xp per character)
*=according to the DMG this is a bit... many... So I would not use this many CR 1/8 creatures
Since the XGtE states that single monsters are only suitable for parties when they are Legendary I'm only using monsters in groups of 2+. Also, since there are no Legendary monsters below CR 5 (which is a Unicorn, a creature I don't see my party attack and/or kill since they're Good characters) and the next step up is the Aboleth at CR 10, I've pretty much ruled out single monsters of a higher CR. From experience I know this doesn't work either, since the players swarm over a single monster. I've put a Hill Giant against them which was dead in 3 turns and was unable to lay a finger on them (mostly due to correct play on part of my players, but still a bit anticlimactic).
However, using the above information, and knowing that the party needs a whopping 3800*5=19000 total xp in order to go up from lvl 4 and 5. If you divide that by the number of encounters they have to defeat/slay, I find that they need to fight approximately 19 encounters. That seems a bit... much to me, but is it?
Note that we play approximately 3 hours per session, so having a single encounter on average is pretty normal, but we've had sessions with no combat involved.
Does the above sound reasonable to any of you? Did I calculate something wrong? How do you experience this? Again, I know I can just give XP freely as a DM, but frankly I don't want to XD
I may have a solution for you, but it is radically different than what you have listed here. Have you considered "Session Based Level Advancement"? Basically, players advance in level based on the number of gaming sessions they participate in (based on 4 hour games). This is an alternative rule in the 5E Dungeon Master Guide (Page 260, I think), that will free up a massive amount of time for you as a Dungeon Master so you can concentrate on other things.
Ironically, I posted a video on this merely minutes ago and then I found your post. If you want to hear more about Session Based Advancement, here is a link to my DM Tips video:
Of course, this is just a radical opinion based on the headache of calculating XP and ensuring your players level up when you want them to. BUT, I hope you find the ideas (and video) useful or at least interesting.
Hope this helps!
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From an EXP standpoint, there's nothing wrong with throwing single monsters at players from time to time. The issue with a single non-legendary monster, as you noticed, is that they can be trivialized. That makes them a bad choice for climactic story battles, but not necessarily a bad choice for random battles.
How much time your group spends in each tier of play (1-4/5-10/11-16/17-20) is up to you. There's no wrong answer here. If you find the first 10 levels boring, there's nothing wrong with speeding up leveling or skipping those levels altogether. Keep in mind that the scope of the game changes with each tier though; an adventure for 1st tier characters is very different from one for 4th tier characters. One risk of leveling too quickly is that you might find that you prefer low tier adventures, or it might bother you that your characters have gotten so strong in such a small amount of in-game time.
I'm a big fan of milestone-based leveling. Level the party up when you feel it's right, or when they've accomplished something significant. It's less bookkeeping and the party doesn't feel like they have to be constantly killing things to progress.
You should also look at granting XP for non combat challenges. Any sort of social encounter can grant XP. Talking your way out of going to the stocks, haggling for a better price, getting stuff like that.
I would encourage you to look into milestone leveling. It really is an easier method. When they reach a certain point in the campaign, they gain a level. That way you can throw whatever you want at them without having to worry about calculating XP, especially if you’re making custom monsters.
If you really like the idea of awarding XP, there’s an Unearthed Arcana called Three Pillar Experience that awards a certain number of points per encounter, be it social, combat, or exploration. The total for each level is 1-100.
I may have a solution for you, but it is radically different than what you have listed here. Have you considered "Session Based Level Advancement"? Basically, players advance in level based on the number of gaming sessions they participate in (based on 4 hour games). This is an alternative rule in the 5E Dungeon Master Guide (Page 260, I think), that will free up a massive amount of time for you as a Dungeon Master so you can concentrate on other things.
Ironically, I posted a video on this merely minutes ago and then I found your post. If you want to hear more about Session Based Advancement, here is a link to my DM Tips video:
Of course, this is just a radical opinion based on the headache of calculating XP and ensuring your players level up when you want them to. BUT, I hope you find the ideas (and video) useful or at least interesting.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the link, I'll check the video out when I can. It sounds interesting. The issue I have though is that Xp for monsters is very "safe" progression. What I mean by that is that the players (not so much the characters) are varied in experience (see what I did there :) ) so if they gain power too quickly, a couple of them forget a lot of abilities they have. This is my whole problem with granting bonus EXP as well, since I don't want them to go up too quickly, and I don't trust myself enough to pace it well enough.
From an EXP standpoint, there's nothing wrong with throwing single monsters at players from time to time. The issue with a single non-legendary monster, as you noticed, is that they can be trivialized. That makes them a bad choice for climactic story battles, but not necessarily a bad choice for random battles.
How much time your group spends in each tier of play (1-4/5-10/11-16/17-20) is up to you. There's no wrong answer here. If you find the first 10 levels boring, there's nothing wrong with speeding up leveling or skipping those levels altogether. Keep in mind that the scope of the game changes with each tier though; an adventure for 1st tier characters is very different from one for 4th tier characters. One risk of leveling too quickly is that you might find that you prefer low tier adventures, or it might bother you that your characters have gotten so strong in such a small amount of in-game time.
I'm a big fan of milestone-based leveling. Level the party up when you feel it's right, or when they've accomplished something significant. It's less bookkeeping and the party doesn't feel like they have to be constantly killing things to progress.
Thanks for the advice. I know that the different tiers have different scopes, and that is what I'm trying to do. From lvl 1 to 4 they've been dealing with rather local problems. Now they're going up against a breach between the Feywild and the Material Plane, which is somewhat local but still bigger in scale. I've seeded the locations of various temples and foreshadowed a great, worldwide cataclysmic event for high level tier. Though I'm looking forward to this, I really don't want to rush it. Somewhat due to the fact that I don't want to overwhelm my players with abilities, powers, spell options and such, but also because I want the progression to "make sense". I have rather steep travel times between locations, which makes sure that they can't "save the world" in two weeks and that they don't grow in power from apprentice to Archmage within a year. The stupid thing is that I don't trust myself enough to pace the growth correctly without some sort of system to keep it in check.
As a rule, no, I don't. This is, again, mostly due to me not trusting myself enough to balance this correctly. However, if they outwit a creature and thus bypass it, I count it as "defeated" and count their XP half to full, depending on how they bypassed it and the risk involved. If they bypass an evil cultist by not entering the house he is in, then they get nothing. However, if they wait for him to get outside, distract him with an illusion spell to walk away and then sneak into his house to get a tome they need, they get a lot if not full XP.
You should also look at granting XP for non combat challenges. Any sort of social encounter can grant XP. Talking your way out of going to the stocks, haggling for a better price, getting stuff like that.
I know this is an option, however I never know what an adequate amount of XP is for such occasions. As with the other issues I've mentioned in this reply, I'm always afraid I give too much XP and have too much growth in too short of a time.
I would encourage you to look into milestone leveling. It really is an easier method. When they reach a certain point in the campaign, they gain a level. That way you can throw whatever you want at them without having to worry about calculating XP, especially if you’re making custom monsters.
If you really like the idea of awarding XP, there’s an Unearthed Arcana called Three Pillar Experience that awards a certain number of points per encounter, be it social, combat, or exploration. The total for each level is 1-100.
.
I've looked into the three pillar experience, but I don't really understand it enough to make it work, I'm afraid. I'll have to look into it further, thanks for the advice.
5e itself has an interesting XP curve. Levels 1-3 go by quickly as it brings the characters to a point where they come into the subclass and there main class features come on line. The pacing slows down getting to 4th, then 5th, and throughout the second tier of play (5-10). Leveling quickens throughout Tier 3 and then slows down again at 16-20. Looking at your math, I can buy the answer of ~19 encounters. In the DMG, they cite the standard adventuring day to be roughly 6-8 encounters, so that's 2.5 - 3 solid adventuring days to get from 4 to 5. To answer your question in the OP, that seems reasonable and within baseline for the expectations of the game. What sounds outside of the normal experience is for a group to have one encounter that provides them XP in a session. Certainly, there are many groups that might have one or less combat a session, but these groups supplement with other sources of XP.
Note: There's a fair amount of opinion on whether 6-8 encounters a day is modeled in standard in most adventures produced by Wizards, or even at most tables. I run both an Adventurers League game at our FLGS, and a game at home. Neither of these actually hit 6-8 a day, but especially for my home game I supplement with other sources of XP. I reference the 6-8 value to give you a baseline provided by the DMG. If you find that the your specific situation is providing too slow of pacing, you probably should find other sources of XP.
In Xanathar's Guide, they provide an alternate leveling structure for Shared Campaigns. Rumor has it that AL might be moving to something similar to this, but there's nothing saying that you couldn't modify this to an individual campaign. IIRC, the recommendation in XGE is that each hour of play time is a checkpoint, and for level 5 and higher 8 checkpoints are needed to gain a level. Currently it sounds like you think the pacing is too slow in your game, but it sounds like those 19 encounters are taking you 20+ 3-hour sessions to complete. Let's say 60 hours. (I'd agree, that pacing is much slower than either of my games, but it's really up to the players on what's fun for the group). It also sounds like your concerned that if you pace to quickly, some of your players might struggle more with some of their character abilities. I'd recommend finding a middle ground between the two extremes (60 hours and 8 hours) for a level.
If it's important to your characters, you can still provide XP to your characters... you can just split up the XP required by the number of sessions. For example, let's say you decide you want your group to level up in 8 3-hour sessions (24 hours played). They require roughly 4000 XP to go from beginning of level 4 to beginning of level 5. Divide that by 8, and you can provide them 500 XP per session they attend. You can also adjust the numbers to suit your players.
The important part here is that if combat will be the only source of XP in the game, you probably need to look at ramping up the number of combats in your sessions to get the pacing you want. If you want other sources of interaction (exploration, finding magic items, roleplaying) you probably need to find a way to reward these.
Hope this helps provide a framework for leveling your group.
Thank you for taking the time to help out. Really interesting stuff and I certainly will look into it.
Just to be clear; yesterday was the 30th session, about 90% of which last around three hours. They hit 4340 xp, meaning average 4340/30=144 xp per session. Last night they killed 5 CR 1/2 creatures (shadows) which were 100 xp each, so that was "below average". Ramping that up to 500 xp per session seems a bit excessive, but I get where you're coming from and I'll look into the XGtE for that XP system you mentioned.
I may have a solution for you, but it is radically different than what you have listed here. Have you considered "Session Based Level Advancement"? Basically, players advance in level based on the number of gaming sessions they participate in (based on 4 hour games). This is an alternative rule in the 5E Dungeon Master Guide (Page 260, I think), that will free up a massive amount of time for you as a Dungeon Master so you can concentrate on other things.
Ironically, I posted a video on this merely minutes ago and then I found your post. If you want to hear more about Session Based Advancement, here is a link to my DM Tips video:
Of course, this is just a radical opinion based on the headache of calculating XP and ensuring your players level up when you want them to. BUT, I hope you find the ideas (and video) useful or at least interesting.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the link, I'll check the video out when I can. It sounds interesting. The issue I have though is that Xp for monsters is very "safe" progression. What I mean by that is that the players (not so much the characters) are varied in experience (see what I did there :) ) so if they gain power too quickly, a couple of them forget a lot of abilities they have. This is my whole problem with granting bonus EXP as well, since I don't want them to go up too quickly, and I don't trust myself enough to pace it well enough.
From an EXP standpoint, there's nothing wrong with throwing single monsters at players from time to time. The issue with a single non-legendary monster, as you noticed, is that they can be trivialized. That makes them a bad choice for climactic story battles, but not necessarily a bad choice for random battles.
How much time your group spends in each tier of play (1-4/5-10/11-16/17-20) is up to you. There's no wrong answer here. If you find the first 10 levels boring, there's nothing wrong with speeding up leveling or skipping those levels altogether. Keep in mind that the scope of the game changes with each tier though; an adventure for 1st tier characters is very different from one for 4th tier characters. One risk of leveling too quickly is that you might find that you prefer low tier adventures, or it might bother you that your characters have gotten so strong in such a small amount of in-game time.
I'm a big fan of milestone-based leveling. Level the party up when you feel it's right, or when they've accomplished something significant. It's less bookkeeping and the party doesn't feel like they have to be constantly killing things to progress.
Thanks for the advice. I know that the different tiers have different scopes, and that is what I'm trying to do. From lvl 1 to 4 they've been dealing with rather local problems. Now they're going up against a breach between the Feywild and the Material Plane, which is somewhat local but still bigger in scale. I've seeded the locations of various temples and foreshadowed a great, worldwide cataclysmic event for high level tier. Though I'm looking forward to this, I really don't want to rush it. Somewhat due to the fact that I don't want to overwhelm my players with abilities, powers, spell options and such, but also because I want the progression to "make sense". I have rather steep travel times between locations, which makes sure that they can't "save the world" in two weeks and that they don't grow in power from apprentice to Archmage within a year. The stupid thing is that I don't trust myself enough to pace the growth correctly without some sort of system to keep it in check.
As a rule, no, I don't. This is, again, mostly due to me not trusting myself enough to balance this correctly. However, if they outwit a creature and thus bypass it, I count it as "defeated" and count their XP half to full, depending on how they bypassed it and the risk involved. If they bypass an evil cultist by not entering the house he is in, then they get nothing. However, if they wait for him to get outside, distract him with an illusion spell to walk away and then sneak into his house to get a tome they need, they get a lot if not full XP.
You should also look at granting XP for non combat challenges. Any sort of social encounter can grant XP. Talking your way out of going to the stocks, haggling for a better price, getting stuff like that.
I know this is an option, however I never know what an adequate amount of XP is for such occasions. As with the other issues I've mentioned in this reply, I'm always afraid I give too much XP and have too much growth in too short of a time.
I would encourage you to look into milestone leveling. It really is an easier method. When they reach a certain point in the campaign, they gain a level. That way you can throw whatever you want at them without having to worry about calculating XP, especially if you’re making custom monsters.
If you really like the idea of awarding XP, there’s an Unearthed Arcana called Three Pillar Experience that awards a certain number of points per encounter, be it social, combat, or exploration. The total for each level is 1-100.
.
I've looked into the three pillar experience, but I don't really understand it enough to make it work, I'm afraid. I'll have to look into it further, thanks for the advice.
Here’s a rough breakdown of how it works:
Imagine XP for every level is on a 0-100% scale. Each encounter is worth a certain number of points. Points are awarded for successfully completing an encounter. That means an encounter with 3 orcs could be coMpleted by killing all of them, making a few run away, or persuading them not to fight you. So long as the encounter ends and the players are alive, they get points.
You could use something like Kobold Fight Club to determine the difficulty level (e.g. an easy encounter might be worth 1-3 points whereas a deadly encounter might be worth 10-15). This way you don’t need to worry about the number of monsters, just how difficult it would be for th players.
With the social side, use the DCs you set as a guide for awarding points. An encounter that has DCs in the 10-15 range would be worth far fewer points than something with a DC 25, like persuading an unfriendly person that they should help you, for example.
For exploration, have a few little side areas planned and if they happen to explore them, they get some points for checking it out. Maybe they are traveling along a road and see a pile of ruins in the distance. If they go check them out, they get 5 points provided they make it out alive. If they don’t, 0 points.
You can use this method to pace their progress and make your life a bit easier as far as matching things out. It’s kind of like a mix between the original XP method and milestone leveling.
Imagine XP for every level is on a 0-100% scale. Each encounter is worth a certain number of points. Points are awarded for successfully completing an encounter. That means an encounter with 3 orcs could be coMpleted by killing all of them, making a few run away, or persuading them not to fight you. So long as the encounter ends and the players are alive, they get points.
You could use something like Kobold Fight Club to determine the difficulty level (e.g. an easy encounter might be worth 1-3 points whereas a deadly encounter might be worth 10-15). This way you don’t need to worry about the number of monsters, just how difficult it would be for th players.
With the social side, use the DCs you set as a guide for awarding points. An encounter that has DCs in the 10-15 range would be worth far fewer points than something with a DC 25, like persuading an unfriendly person that they should help you, for example.
For exploration, have a few little side areas planned and if they happen to explore them, they get some points for checking it out. Maybe they are traveling along a road and see a pile of ruins in the distance. If they go check them out, they get 5 points provided they make it out alive. If they don’t, 0 points.
You can use this method to pace their progress and make your life a bit easier as far as matching things out. It’s kind of like a mix between the original XP method and milestone leveling.
I actually allow the players to each (once per session) grant 100xp (they are just now level 3) to another player for good roleplaying. It encourages investment, and generates camaraderie and good vibes.
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I think you are also probably underestimating the strength of creatures your players can take down. Because the "adventuring day" is balanced around multiple encounters, if they are only hitting one combat per session, they should be able to take on a very hearty set of foes. I would be making encounters that are incredibly unfair by typical CR under those types of circumstances. Multiple monsters at higher CR (or mixing several lower CR with high CR) should both provide some challenge and help to move their XP forward. Using your example, I would have used 2-3 hill giants, as well as maybe some goblins or other low CR creatures, instead of a single hill giant.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the awarding of milestone XP along with defeating the enemy XP.
Milestone XP is typically that stuff the characters are govern for completing a task (I don't recall how much detail the DMG goes into on these, or if that is the bonus you are referring to); rescuing the princess, clearing out the crypt of undead, finding and stealing that tome that some eccentric stranger is paying the group to get and that kind of thing. Essentially the end of a 'job', mission or even just a key point in an ongoing thing.
A ballpark I uses is about 100 xp per character level for each character. Thus a level 1 character would each get 100 xp for completing the mission, while level 3 characters would each get 300 xp, for completing their mission. This is on top of the defeated enemy XP. This helps a lot and really hits home that "We completed a task" aspect to the players.
As it goes, don't be too worried about awarding too much XP, you learn as you go as to what works best. If you feel it is too much after a few times give a bit less next time, too little and you can give a bit more (so using my 100 xp ballpark above, if it feels too much drop it back to 75 or even 50, if it feels too little you can increase it next time). You can even mix it up a bit so in some areas the characters will advance quicker and slow right down to advance quite slowly once you get there (I typically do that to get characters to 3rd or 4th level, where I see them as competent, then slow the progression back quite a bit).
Remember the road is generally a long one for the characters to reach the 10+ levels and so long as players are having fun at the development pace that is what really matters and even veteran DMs make mistakes on occasion when awarding xp as we get used to what a group likes or what works for the campaign at hand.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the awarding of milestone XP along with defeating the enemy XP.
Milestone XP is typically that stuff the characters are govern for completing a task (I don't recall how much detail the DMG goes into on these, or if that is the bonus you are referring to); rescuing the princess, clearing out the crypt of undead, finding and stealing that tome that some eccentric stranger is paying the group to get and that kind of thing. Essentially the end of a 'job', mission or even just a key point in an ongoing thing.
A ballpark I uses is about 100 xp per character level for each character. Thus a level 1 character would each get 100 xp for completing the mission, while level 3 characters would each get 300 xp, for completing their mission. This is on top of the defeated enemy XP. This helps a lot and really hits home that "We completed a task" aspect to the players.
As it goes, don't be too worried about awarding too much XP, you learn as you go as to what works best. If you feel it is too much after a few times give a bit less next time, too little and you can give a bit more (so using my 100 xp ballpark above, if it feels too much drop it back to 75 or even 50, if it feels too little you can increase it next time). You can even mix it up a bit so in some areas the characters will advance quicker and slow right down to advance quite slowly once you get there (I typically do that to get characters to 3rd or 4th level, where I see them as competent, then slow the progression back quite a bit).
Remember the road is generally a long one for the characters to reach the 10+ levels and so long as players are having fun at the development pace that is what really matters and even veteran DMs make mistakes on occasion when awarding xp as we get used to what a group likes or what works for the campaign at hand.
Thanks for the advice! Truth be told, it's an issue I've had for a long time; been playing DnD since I was 14-ish, now I'm hitting 30. So though I'd consider myself a "veteran DM" I also am very dependant of the systems in place. I don't really know why that is. I've also played in other systems (Shadowrun, World of Darkness mostly) which have a very different type of progression if they had progression, so maybe that's a reason.
I do like the X EXP per level per player for completing certain tasks. I'm thinking about combining the systems you guys presented (thanks again :) ) and give 50xp per lvl (now level 4 so 200 xp) per player for completing chapters of the story. For instance, now they are trapped in a pseudo-dimension due to a breach to the Feywild. Should/when they escape, that would grant them the extra XP above what they aquire from the various monsters they defeat/avoid/slay/befriend :P
Other posters have pointed out the excellent suggestions that you award XP for non-combat achievements, or do away with them altogether and use the milestone system. I’m going to suggest another option.
Have you looked at the possibility that your average combat encounter isn’t hard enough? It’s stating the obvious that if you want to lower the number of combats to get from level 4 to level 5, then each combat has to yield more experience. In your example, you’ve stated that it takes 3800 XP per PC to go from level 4 to level 5, and you give a calculation that it would take 19 combats to get there. That’s an average of 3800/19 = 200 XP per combat (per PC).
There’s a table in the DMG (p82): XP Thresholds by Character Level that lists an XP “budget” for a character of a certain level per combat encounter. They give point values for Easy, Medium, Hard, and Deadly levels of combats. The level 4 values are 125/250/375/500, so it seems your average encounter is in the Easy to Medium level. If you want the minimum number of combats to get from level 4 to 5, then only seven “Deadly” and a Medium-Hard encounter are required. I don’t suggest that course of action, but if you ramp up the average to Hard levels, then only about ten combats are required. That cuts the number of encounters roughly in half from 19.
You mentioned an encounter with a Hill Giant that only lasted three rounds. Based on the XP value of 1800 for the Hill Giant and your average difficulty level of 200 XP per encounter, you must have about 9 PC’s in the party, or at least 6 with a lot of good magic items. Two Hill Giants rather than just one would have increased the difficulty into the Hard region and might have provided a more satisfying experience (no pun intended).
Given this kind of analysis is possible because of the information provided in the PHB and the DMG, there likely is an underlying progression rate of some number of say Medium encounters to level up in each of the four tiers of play. I expect that the table in the DMG is conservative, so you can likely ramp things up to the Hard level on average without too much risk of a TPK. I emphasize the “on average”. Mix it up a bit.
I've been dungeoning and dragoning for about 20 years and what I (and countless groups of adventurers) have concluded is thus.
Not every session will have combat. Some sessions will be heavily focused on role playing and sometimes your group will get lost in the RP without defeating any monsters and won't complete any quests.
This would mean that 2-6 hours (4 hours is a standard session) results in zero xp.
What we have decided is to award (per session) each character that participated in the session an amount of xp equal to their character level × 100 xp
Example: you attend a game with your 4th level monk, unfortunately encountering no enemies in combat and completing zero quests. At the end of the session you will still receive 400xp (char lvl4 × 100xp)
This allows your players to advance, albeit slowly, even if they perform poorly in any given session.
So My party have now had 60 sessions and made level 6 in session 56. I run milestone levelling so allow levelling to happen at the right moments in the story, this means I am not worrying about XP.
Warning: Lot of math following :P
I'm running a game for my friends as a DM, and we've been having a blast. However, I feel that the XP gain is way too low for the time spent playing. We've spent little over a year playing regularly, now almost at 30 sessions due to holidays and such. All my players have always had an equal amount of xp, even though we've lost a few players and gained new ones. Yet after all that time they're still at lvl 4, halfway to 5. While I understand that you can grant bonus XP, I prefer not to in case I break the system (I'm very dependant on the books, it's just my inability to let go of rules in books) It might just be me, but if I run the math I get the following:
A character that goes from lvl 4 to 5 requires 3800 xp.
When looking at the encounter rules in Xanathar's Guide to Everything, I calculated the XP of "regular" encounters featuring the table for multiple creatures creatures per CR in an Excel sheet. This gives me for a lvl 4 party of 5 characters:
CR 1/8: 40* creatures Actual XP (40*25=1000 xp/5=200xp per character)
CR 1/4: 20* creatures Actual XP (20*50=1000 xp/5=200xp per character)
CR 1/2: 10 creatures Actual XP (10*100=1000 xp/5=200xp per character)
CR 1: 5 creatures Actual XP (5*200=1000 xp/5=200xp per character)
CR 2: 2 creatures Actual XP (2*450=900 xp/5=180xp per character)
*=according to the DMG this is a bit... many... So I would not use this many CR 1/8 creatures
Since the XGtE states that single monsters are only suitable for parties when they are Legendary I'm only using monsters in groups of 2+. Also, since there are no Legendary monsters below CR 5 (which is a Unicorn, a creature I don't see my party attack and/or kill since they're Good characters) and the next step up is the Aboleth at CR 10, I've pretty much ruled out single monsters of a higher CR. From experience I know this doesn't work either, since the players swarm over a single monster. I've put a Hill Giant against them which was dead in 3 turns and was unable to lay a finger on them (mostly due to correct play on part of my players, but still a bit anticlimactic).
However, using the above information, and knowing that the party needs a whopping 3800*5=19000 total xp in order to go up from lvl 4 and 5. If you divide that by the number of encounters they have to defeat/slay, I find that they need to fight approximately 19 encounters. That seems a bit... much to me, but is it?
Note that we play approximately 3 hours per session, so having a single encounter on average is pretty normal, but we've had sessions with no combat involved.
Does the above sound reasonable to any of you? Did I calculate something wrong? How do you experience this? Again, I know I can just give XP freely as a DM, but frankly I don't want to XD
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
I may have a solution for you, but it is radically different than what you have listed here. Have you considered "Session Based Level Advancement"? Basically, players advance in level based on the number of gaming sessions they participate in (based on 4 hour games). This is an alternative rule in the 5E Dungeon Master Guide (Page 260, I think), that will free up a massive amount of time for you as a Dungeon Master so you can concentrate on other things.
Ironically, I posted a video on this merely minutes ago and then I found your post. If you want to hear more about Session Based Advancement, here is a link to my DM Tips video:
No more XP! Session Based Advancement and Absent Players
Of course, this is just a radical opinion based on the headache of calculating XP and ensuring your players level up when you want them to. BUT, I hope you find the ideas (and video) useful or at least interesting.
Hope this helps!
I have a YouTube channel with 5th Edition D&D Puzzles, Character Creations, DM Tips and Quests ideas. Check it out!
Wally DM on YouTube
From an EXP standpoint, there's nothing wrong with throwing single monsters at players from time to time. The issue with a single non-legendary monster, as you noticed, is that they can be trivialized. That makes them a bad choice for climactic story battles, but not necessarily a bad choice for random battles.
How much time your group spends in each tier of play (1-4/5-10/11-16/17-20) is up to you. There's no wrong answer here. If you find the first 10 levels boring, there's nothing wrong with speeding up leveling or skipping those levels altogether. Keep in mind that the scope of the game changes with each tier though; an adventure for 1st tier characters is very different from one for 4th tier characters. One risk of leveling too quickly is that you might find that you prefer low tier adventures, or it might bother you that your characters have gotten so strong in such a small amount of in-game time.
I'm a big fan of milestone-based leveling. Level the party up when you feel it's right, or when they've accomplished something significant. It's less bookkeeping and the party doesn't feel like they have to be constantly killing things to progress.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Are you awarding XP for non combat endeavors?
Perpetually annoyed that Eldritch Knights can't use Eldritch Blast, Eldritch Smite, and Eldritch Sight.
You should also look at granting XP for non combat challenges. Any sort of social encounter can grant XP. Talking your way out of going to the stocks, haggling for a better price, getting stuff like that.
I would encourage you to look into milestone leveling. It really is an easier method. When they reach a certain point in the campaign, they gain a level. That way you can throw whatever you want at them without having to worry about calculating XP, especially if you’re making custom monsters.
If you really like the idea of awarding XP, there’s an Unearthed Arcana called Three Pillar Experience that awards a certain number of points per encounter, be it social, combat, or exploration. The total for each level is 1-100.
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Thanks for the link, I'll check the video out when I can. It sounds interesting. The issue I have though is that Xp for monsters is very "safe" progression. What I mean by that is that the players (not so much the characters) are varied in experience (see what I did there :) ) so if they gain power too quickly, a couple of them forget a lot of abilities they have. This is my whole problem with granting bonus EXP as well, since I don't want them to go up too quickly, and I don't trust myself enough to pace it well enough.
I know this is an option, however I never know what an adequate amount of XP is for such occasions. As with the other issues I've mentioned in this reply, I'm always afraid I give too much XP and have too much growth in too short of a time.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
5e itself has an interesting XP curve. Levels 1-3 go by quickly as it brings the characters to a point where they come into the subclass and there main class features come on line. The pacing slows down getting to 4th, then 5th, and throughout the second tier of play (5-10). Leveling quickens throughout Tier 3 and then slows down again at 16-20. Looking at your math, I can buy the answer of ~19 encounters. In the DMG, they cite the standard adventuring day to be roughly 6-8 encounters, so that's 2.5 - 3 solid adventuring days to get from 4 to 5. To answer your question in the OP, that seems reasonable and within baseline for the expectations of the game. What sounds outside of the normal experience is for a group to have one encounter that provides them XP in a session. Certainly, there are many groups that might have one or less combat a session, but these groups supplement with other sources of XP.
Note: There's a fair amount of opinion on whether 6-8 encounters a day is modeled in standard in most adventures produced by Wizards, or even at most tables. I run both an Adventurers League game at our FLGS, and a game at home. Neither of these actually hit 6-8 a day, but especially for my home game I supplement with other sources of XP. I reference the 6-8 value to give you a baseline provided by the DMG. If you find that the your specific situation is providing too slow of pacing, you probably should find other sources of XP.
In Xanathar's Guide, they provide an alternate leveling structure for Shared Campaigns. Rumor has it that AL might be moving to something similar to this, but there's nothing saying that you couldn't modify this to an individual campaign. IIRC, the recommendation in XGE is that each hour of play time is a checkpoint, and for level 5 and higher 8 checkpoints are needed to gain a level. Currently it sounds like you think the pacing is too slow in your game, but it sounds like those 19 encounters are taking you 20+ 3-hour sessions to complete. Let's say 60 hours. (I'd agree, that pacing is much slower than either of my games, but it's really up to the players on what's fun for the group). It also sounds like your concerned that if you pace to quickly, some of your players might struggle more with some of their character abilities. I'd recommend finding a middle ground between the two extremes (60 hours and 8 hours) for a level.
If it's important to your characters, you can still provide XP to your characters... you can just split up the XP required by the number of sessions. For example, let's say you decide you want your group to level up in 8 3-hour sessions (24 hours played). They require roughly 4000 XP to go from beginning of level 4 to beginning of level 5. Divide that by 8, and you can provide them 500 XP per session they attend. You can also adjust the numbers to suit your players.
The important part here is that if combat will be the only source of XP in the game, you probably need to look at ramping up the number of combats in your sessions to get the pacing you want. If you want other sources of interaction (exploration, finding magic items, roleplaying) you probably need to find a way to reward these.
Hope this helps provide a framework for leveling your group.
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
Playtesting Fugare Draconis, an epic tale of adventure, loss, and redemption
I think you are also probably underestimating the strength of creatures your players can take down. Because the "adventuring day" is balanced around multiple encounters, if they are only hitting one combat per session, they should be able to take on a very hearty set of foes. I would be making encounters that are incredibly unfair by typical CR under those types of circumstances. Multiple monsters at higher CR (or mixing several lower CR with high CR) should both provide some challenge and help to move their XP forward. Using your example, I would have used 2-3 hill giants, as well as maybe some goblins or other low CR creatures, instead of a single hill giant.
One thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the awarding of milestone XP along with defeating the enemy XP.
Milestone XP is typically that stuff the characters are govern for completing a task (I don't recall how much detail the DMG goes into on these, or if that is the bonus you are referring to); rescuing the princess, clearing out the crypt of undead, finding and stealing that tome that some eccentric stranger is paying the group to get and that kind of thing. Essentially the end of a 'job', mission or even just a key point in an ongoing thing.
A ballpark I uses is about 100 xp per character level for each character. Thus a level 1 character would each get 100 xp for completing the mission, while level 3 characters would each get 300 xp, for completing their mission. This is on top of the defeated enemy XP. This helps a lot and really hits home that "We completed a task" aspect to the players.
As it goes, don't be too worried about awarding too much XP, you learn as you go as to what works best.
If you feel it is too much after a few times give a bit less next time, too little and you can give a bit more (so using my 100 xp ballpark above, if it feels too much drop it back to 75 or even 50, if it feels too little you can increase it next time).
You can even mix it up a bit so in some areas the characters will advance quicker and slow right down to advance quite slowly once you get there (I typically do that to get characters to 3rd or 4th level, where I see them as competent, then slow the progression back quite a bit).
Remember the road is generally a long one for the characters to reach the 10+ levels and so long as players are having fun at the development pace that is what really matters and even veteran DMs make mistakes on occasion when awarding xp as we get used to what a group likes or what works for the campaign at hand.
- Loswaith
Subclass: Dwarven Defender - Dragonborn Paragon
Feats: Artificer Apprentice
Monsters: Sheep - Spellbreaker Warforged Titan
Magic Items: Whipier - Ring of Secret Storage - Collar of the Guardian
Monster template: Skeletal Creature
You really ought to ask the players at the table what they think. Maybe let them award the XP.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
Other posters have pointed out the excellent suggestions that you award XP for non-combat achievements, or do away with them altogether and use the milestone system. I’m going to suggest another option.
Have you looked at the possibility that your average combat encounter isn’t hard enough? It’s stating the obvious that if you want to lower the number of combats to get from level 4 to level 5, then each combat has to yield more experience. In your example, you’ve stated that it takes 3800 XP per PC to go from level 4 to level 5, and you give a calculation that it would take 19 combats to get there. That’s an average of 3800/19 = 200 XP per combat (per PC).
There’s a table in the DMG (p82): XP Thresholds by Character Level that lists an XP “budget” for a character of a certain level per combat encounter. They give point values for Easy, Medium, Hard, and Deadly levels of combats. The level 4 values are 125/250/375/500, so it seems your average encounter is in the Easy to Medium level. If you want the minimum number of combats to get from level 4 to 5, then only seven “Deadly” and a Medium-Hard encounter are required. I don’t suggest that course of action, but if you ramp up the average to Hard levels, then only about ten combats are required. That cuts the number of encounters roughly in half from 19.
You mentioned an encounter with a Hill Giant that only lasted three rounds. Based on the XP value of 1800 for the Hill Giant and your average difficulty level of 200 XP per encounter, you must have about 9 PC’s in the party, or at least 6 with a lot of good magic items. Two Hill Giants rather than just one would have increased the difficulty into the Hard region and might have provided a more satisfying experience (no pun intended).
Given this kind of analysis is possible because of the information provided in the PHB and the DMG, there likely is an underlying progression rate of some number of say Medium encounters to level up in each of the four tiers of play. I expect that the table in the DMG is conservative, so you can likely ramp things up to the Hard level on average without too much risk of a TPK. I emphasize the “on average”. Mix it up a bit.
I've been dungeoning and dragoning for about 20 years and what I (and countless groups of adventurers) have concluded is thus.
Not every session will have combat. Some sessions will be heavily focused on role playing and sometimes your group will get lost in the RP without defeating any monsters and won't complete any quests.
This would mean that 2-6 hours (4 hours is a standard session) results in zero xp.
What we have decided is to award (per session) each character that participated in the session an amount of xp equal to their character level × 100 xp
Example: you attend a game with your 4th level monk, unfortunately encountering no enemies in combat and completing zero quests. At the end of the session you will still receive 400xp (char lvl4 × 100xp)
This allows your players to advance, albeit slowly, even if they perform poorly in any given session.
So My party have now had 60 sessions and made level 6 in session 56. I run milestone levelling so allow levelling to happen at the right moments in the story, this means I am not worrying about XP.
I've used this analysis as a general guide.
DnD 5e - Practical Guide to Campaign Planning | RPGBOT