I would definitely say that magical means of cross-species breeding would be possible. However, it isn't like you will get a huge population of such people unless you had endless magic aimed at continual creation of said creatures (like the Uruk hai). The fun of magical worlds of fantasy is that so many unusual things take place!! Certainly would result in an unusual background story.
The next person that says different species can't interbreed is going to make me reflex post an exhaustive list of every hybrid species example known.
Yeah, it's frustrating. People aren't bothering to even check the last couple of pages to brief themselves on the position of the discussion. But then, I suppose, if they were willing to take effort to understand what's happening, they'd already know that our ancestors interbred with at least one other species and realise that's something is up.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The next person that says different species can't interbreed is going to make me reflex post an exhaustive list of every hybrid species example known.
Yeah, it's frustrating. People aren't bothering to even check the last couple of pages to brief themselves on the position of the discussion. But then, I suppose, if they were willing to take effort to understand what's happening, they'd already know that our ancestors interbred with at least one other species and realise that's something is up.
I assume they think that modern humans have neanderthal and denisovan DNA by magic or something. Rather than interbreeding.
My favourite hybrids are chicken-peafowl mixes. They're incredibly rare, and yet look so unique. The two species are only distantly related too, not even being the same genus or tribe.
The next person that says different species can't interbreed is going to make me reflex post an exhaustive list of every hybrid species example known.
It's a pointless argument to begin with, because again -- in a world of magic, producing children does not have to involve "breeding" at all
If you want your character's parents to be a male dragonborn and a warforged without a gender, you can. If you want your character to have three moms -- a coven made up of a gnome, an eladrin and a firbolg -- go for it
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Then why, in this kind of world, can't we know them as races? What's the difference, then??!!!
You certainly can. Wizards is electing not to make it the default. Not because of scientific accuracy concerns but because their cultural consultants have advised them it's a good idea. Welcome to the loop.
Then why, in this kind of world, can't we know them as races? What's the difference, then??!!!
Objection, asked and answered. You have already been told multiple times why race was removed - D&D has been trying to move away from the problematic history of race within D&D, specifically the fact they had a founder who had a bad habit of doing things like preaching biological determinism (effectively rebranded eugenics) and quoting military commanders orders for genocide.
That is the difference - language and the implications thereof matter, historical use matters, and “species” gives Wizards a new word not as charged by the many transgressions of TSR and less-common, but still existent, transgressions of Wizards (see Strahd; Spelljammer).
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Then why, in this kind of world, can't we know them as races? What's the difference, then??!!!
Species just means a type. Different species of something are different types of it. A species of life is a type of life. That's the root of the word. In real life, this is the difference between two races:
The difference between those two is considered too small to be considered different species, so they're called different ethnicities; in dated terms, you'd say they're different races.
This is the difference between species in real life:
Those are considered different enough to call different species. They're still reasonably similar (compared to say, the difference between a human and a fish), but still different species. By the way, other than their sex, they could interbreed and produce fertile children. That's why we have Neanderthal DNA. Your great x5000 grandmother had relations with one and produced your great x4999 grandparent.
Now, these are three different, ah, "races" according to D&D:
Now, tell me with a straight face that the difference between those three are on the same level as in the first picture and much less than that of the Human/Neanderthal. If you can't, then that's why they're different species.
Look, if you want to call them races, go ahead. No one cares. Literally. Unless someone at your table is upset by it for some reason - but then, you should be accommodating regardless of what WotC says. But otherwise, you're golden. WotC has decided they don't want to continue using "race" in this context, for several reasons, and so they have stopped. Beyond a few words in a book that isn't even written yet...nothing has changed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This entire discussion - the larger discussion, not just the narrow 'we don't say race anymore' discussion - is clenched up so tight, like the exit of a digestive tract, that it's effectively impossible to present any sort of rational argument. Oh, sure, you can argue, but no one is going to listen.
Here's what: It cannot ever be about the word. It must always be about the intention.
So if someone says 'well, the human race began it's long journey in Afrika' - then maybe you shouldn't be offended by that, even though the horrible R word is in there.
On the other hand, if someone tells you 'well, the orcish race was made for war and nothing else' - then that person is propably deliberately trying to be hurtful, or possibly just completely ignorant of the rich and varied culture and history of the orcish race. Then, maybe, be offended.
But the intention is what matters. Maybe, seriously, if no one is trying to offend you - don't be offended.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Here's what: It cannot ever be about the word. It must always be about the intention.
I remember going to Italy, and with a friend we'd talk to people about a variety of things. One of the common questions we'd ask people was "What is the purpose of your life?" Which is interesting because the word for purpose, scopo, is a single letter from broom, scopa. The way Italian grammar works is that if you confused the gender of a word, you'd get those words switched (so, if you wanted to say broom but thought it was masculine, you'd likely end up saying scopo by accident). Another relevant fact: scopa has two meanings. The other is functionally the equivalent of the "F word". My friend was otherwise excellent at Italian, but continually confused genders. You can imagine the faces we got, which was only compounded by the fact that my friend refused to believe he was doing it. At least, until we spoke to one young lad who got really confused, and decided to act it out on the street to clarify what he thought friend had asked. There were a lot of old ladies who didn't give us that chance to clarify what we were asking.
Words have meaning, and they have power. When a word is being used wrong and is actually causing actual quotes like "yes, but that race sucks, you want to be race X instead, it is so much better", then maybe we should be careful in our language and use the correct terms. Using words and phrases conditions us.
I also strongly suggest you actually read the thread. There is one side that is getting upset and offended over the use of a word, and it's not the side that thinks that using the word "species" is a positive step forward.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
But the intention is what matters. Maybe, seriously, if no one is trying to offend you - don't be offended.
That's... Not how it works. If I say something rude and hurtful, it isn't suddenly polite because I didn't mean to hurt anyone. The argument that intentions speak louder than actions is nonsensical. So is the argument that a word cannot be offensive if the person throwing it around does not intend offense.
I also strongly suggest you actually read the thread. There is one side that is getting upset and offended over the use of a word, and it's not the side that thinks that using the word "species" is a positive step forward.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Ok, well, if you're not interested in getting informed on what the different parties are actually saying before pronouncing judgement, then there is nothing to discuss on the subject.
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I would definitely say that magical means of cross-species breeding would be possible. However, it isn't like you will get a huge population of such people unless you had endless magic aimed at continual creation of said creatures (like the Uruk hai). The fun of magical worlds of fantasy is that so many unusual things take place!! Certainly would result in an unusual background story.
Pallutus
I Quite agree.
Pallutus
The next person that says different species can't interbreed is going to make me reflex post an exhaustive list of every hybrid species example known.
Yeah, it's frustrating. People aren't bothering to even check the last couple of pages to brief themselves on the position of the discussion. But then, I suppose, if they were willing to take effort to understand what's happening, they'd already know that our ancestors interbred with at least one other species and realise that's something is up.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I assume they think that modern humans have neanderthal and denisovan DNA by magic or something. Rather than interbreeding.
My favourite hybrids are chicken-peafowl mixes. They're incredibly rare, and yet look so unique. The two species are only distantly related too, not even being the same genus or tribe.
It's a pointless argument to begin with, because again -- in a world of magic, producing children does not have to involve "breeding" at all
If you want your character's parents to be a male dragonborn and a warforged without a gender, you can. If you want your character to have three moms -- a coven made up of a gnome, an eladrin and a firbolg -- go for it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Then why, in this kind of world, can't we know them as races? What's the difference, then??!!!
Pallutus
You certainly can. Wizards is electing not to make it the default. Not because of scientific accuracy concerns but because their cultural consultants have advised them it's a good idea. Welcome to the loop.
Objection, asked and answered. You have already been told multiple times why race was removed - D&D has been trying to move away from the problematic history of race within D&D, specifically the fact they had a founder who had a bad habit of doing things like preaching biological determinism (effectively rebranded eugenics) and quoting military commanders orders for genocide.
That is the difference - language and the implications thereof matter, historical use matters, and “species” gives Wizards a new word not as charged by the many transgressions of TSR and less-common, but still existent, transgressions of Wizards (see Strahd; Spelljammer).
What happened with Strahd?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
They ultimately ended up releasing a whole new edition due to its original version heavily relying on harmful Romani stereotypes.
Nothing to Strahd himself, but the Vistani were recognized as problematic.
Species just means a type. Different species of something are different types of it. A species of life is a type of life. That's the root of the word. In real life, this is the difference between two races:
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-photo/close-shot-happy-international-lesbian-couple-1048822133
The difference between those two is considered too small to be considered different species, so they're called different ethnicities; in dated terms, you'd say they're different races.
This is the difference between species in real life:
https://www.uh.edu/engines/epi2637.htm
Those are considered different enough to call different species. They're still reasonably similar (compared to say, the difference between a human and a fish), but still different species. By the way, other than their sex, they could interbreed and produce fertile children. That's why we have Neanderthal DNA. Your great x5000 grandmother had relations with one and produced your great x4999 grandparent.
Now, these are three different, ah, "races" according to D&D:
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/dds-new-playtest-is-spelljammer-space-opera-flavoured-in-2022--304626362306123177/
Now, tell me with a straight face that the difference between those three are on the same level as in the first picture and much less than that of the Human/Neanderthal. If you can't, then that's why they're different species.
Look, if you want to call them races, go ahead. No one cares. Literally. Unless someone at your table is upset by it for some reason - but then, you should be accommodating regardless of what WotC says. But otherwise, you're golden. WotC has decided they don't want to continue using "race" in this context, for several reasons, and so they have stopped. Beyond a few words in a book that isn't even written yet...nothing has changed.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Lineage, Origin, Peerage, Kin(dred)...
Or just go with Ancestry even though PF beat them to it, who cares.
I agree that Species is a bit immersion-breaking, but I completely agree with WotC directionally.
See the oppression inherent in the system!! :)
Pallutus
Just replace race/species/ancestry with 'player entity'
Apart from being boring game language, there isn't any way that term can be traced back to unsavoury language used by eugenicists.
This entire discussion - the larger discussion, not just the narrow 'we don't say race anymore' discussion - is clenched up so tight, like the exit of a digestive tract, that it's effectively impossible to present any sort of rational argument. Oh, sure, you can argue, but no one is going to listen.
Here's what: It cannot ever be about the word. It must always be about the intention.
So if someone says 'well, the human race began it's long journey in Afrika' - then maybe you shouldn't be offended by that, even though the horrible R word is in there.
On the other hand, if someone tells you 'well, the orcish race was made for war and nothing else' - then that person is propably deliberately trying to be hurtful, or possibly just completely ignorant of the rich and varied culture and history of the orcish race. Then, maybe, be offended.
But the intention is what matters. Maybe, seriously, if no one is trying to offend you - don't be offended.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I remember going to Italy, and with a friend we'd talk to people about a variety of things. One of the common questions we'd ask people was "What is the purpose of your life?" Which is interesting because the word for purpose, scopo, is a single letter from broom, scopa. The way Italian grammar works is that if you confused the gender of a word, you'd get those words switched (so, if you wanted to say broom but thought it was masculine, you'd likely end up saying scopo by accident). Another relevant fact: scopa has two meanings. The other is functionally the equivalent of the "F word". My friend was otherwise excellent at Italian, but continually confused genders. You can imagine the faces we got, which was only compounded by the fact that my friend refused to believe he was doing it. At least, until we spoke to one young lad who got really confused, and decided to act it out on the street to clarify what he thought friend had asked. There were a lot of old ladies who didn't give us that chance to clarify what we were asking.
Words have meaning, and they have power. When a word is being used wrong and is actually causing actual quotes like "yes, but that race sucks, you want to be race X instead, it is so much better", then maybe we should be careful in our language and use the correct terms. Using words and phrases conditions us.
I also strongly suggest you actually read the thread. There is one side that is getting upset and offended over the use of a word, and it's not the side that thinks that using the word "species" is a positive step forward.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
That's... Not how it works. If I say something rude and hurtful, it isn't suddenly polite because I didn't mean to hurt anyone. The argument that intentions speak louder than actions is nonsensical. So is the argument that a word cannot be offensive if the person throwing it around does not intend offense.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
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HERE.Ok, well, if you're not interested in getting informed on what the different parties are actually saying before pronouncing judgement, then there is nothing to discuss on the subject.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.