I very much like the DNDBeyond + Beyond20 + Roll20 tech setup for running my games, and this shit is all just disheartening as all hell. I will likely end up switching systems if they go forward with this iteration of the current OGL or maybe I just stop roleplaying like I did during 4E when they pulled the same stunt.
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing) You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
Effectively, WOTC will be putting a 20% or 25% tax on top of every third party content creator.
Assume, after all of the other manufacturing costs, that 3rd part companies currently have profit margins in the 5% - 15% range = they make $5 on every $100 of revenue. Now, WOTC says that you owe us $20 or $25 in addition to all of your other costs. The 3rd party will have to increase their prices to account for the WOTC royalty, which has the impact of lower overall demand for their product and possibly pushing it out of business if the new price goes to high.
Would you pay $60 - $65 dollars for Tome of Beasts, or any of the other hardcover 3rd party books? Because that's the price you're looking at under the new system.
I don't like much of anything coming out of WOTC these days, and am glad that I'm moving over to OSE Advanced.
Effectively, WOTC will be putting a 20% or 25% tax on top of every third party content creator.
Do remember that the royalties will not be charged for the first $750,000 of revenue, and you will only have to give a percentage of all the money above that number to Wizards. Also, Wizards explicitly said that they would only charge the people who made this massive amount of money, so saying that they're putting a "tax on top of every third party content creator" is downright incorrect.
It is important to remember that these are unconfirmed leaks. This would be bad if it were real, but we can't be sure that it is. I would recommend patience before panicking, because while you may be right and the sky may be falling, we really just don't know yet.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
This whole fiasco proves that WotC have completely lost the heart of the game.
It's money-hungry, video game style predatory monetisation manifest. I've never been much for video games but I've seen friends and family grow frustrated and despondent with their hobby over this happening in that space and now the awful practices are seemingly spreading. The OGL is the spirit of the game that has been carried since the 70s, D&D is a folk ruleset with general guidance that is shared and modified from group to group. It's magical in that way and no other game quite matches its appeal and popularity because of it!
Well I won't have it, if Dungeons & Dragons loses its soul as it seems will be the case if they continue down this path deep into the Nine Hells then I'm going to jump ship to another game. I guess Pathfinder is gonna get another massive wave of new arrivals, hopefully if WotC goes ahead with this it sinks them. But I worry that much like video games make people miserable nowadays tabletop games will get consumed by the same misery.
Also the rules aren't really going in a way I like and I sniff digital microtransactions on the horizon ruining everything. Beyond the OGL and the fact that WotC has decided to become super draconian (as others have pointed out I do love the irony in that) I think that if they decide to pursue this awful route the only way to fight it is to walk away and play something else. Vote with your time and your money; the latter being the only thing they seemingly care about.
Ah well, there will always be cool indie RPGs to play, I'm gonna run a game of Spire: The City Must Fall. Check it out if you guys like drow and urban fantasy.
I don't think the changes to the OGL will be the end of the world for 3rd party creators. Think of it as an additional cost of doing business. Ultimately, the changes will likely increase their costs, and they will have to increase their prices in order to maintain their desired profit margin, but at the end of the day WoTC knows that 3rd party creators are essential, and would never outright kill the golden goose. (Much like 3rd party modders in the PC game industry)
If the leak is correct and it's what's WotC goes with for the updated OGL it absolutely could be the end of the world for third party creators.
The document gives Wizards "“nonexclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, worldwide, sub-licensable, royalty-free license to use that content for any purpose.”. It also says “can modify or terminate this agreement for any reason whatsoever, provided We give thirty (30) days’ notice.”
Wizards could tell a third party content creator that they can no longer sell anything under the new OGL after 30 days and start selling the content created under the license without paying a penny to the creators. Or WotC could start selling it or even just give it away for free on DND Beyond as soon as it's created.
They could, but I don't think they would take it that far. Bad will can be very costly for a corporation, and if they systematically start screwing 3rd party creators to the fullest extent of the contract, that's exactly what will happen. In the age of the Internet, it's not easy to sweep this kind of behavior under the rug.
Sure they might not, but they could as well. Pathfinder getting to big? Sorry Paizo you only got 30 days to remove anything related to the 3.0/3.5 SRD from Pathfinder and Starfinder. Any products you have in the pipeline need to be redone.
The fact they want the clauses in this updated OGL and for it to invalidate the previous OGLs despite that not being the intention of the OGL is extremely anti consumer and anti competitive. And that doesn't even get into the fact that there are licensed RPGs based on the OGL and 5E, such as Dark Souls, which if this updated OGL goes into effect would almost certainly break the license agreements those companies have with the license holders for those IPs.
Question? Why is none else complaining that no other company provides a OGL? you cant make your own stuff for other game systems and distribute it.
This might sound mean, but it's not meant to be. It's intended to just be an honest look. The reasons it's different for DnD include -
It's the biggest game out there. Even if other games offered similar licenses, it wouldn't be the same market. No one is making million dollar kickstarters on the back of other games.
People got used to having the OGL. Some made a lot of money with it. It was an exceptionally good deal. You could create rules that used the massive success of the biggest game out there to fuel your own sales with zero royalties. There is hardly anything like it in creative spaces. When a deal that good goes away, even if it was more than anyone could have hoped for, it feels like a loss.
People built whole businesses around this model. Maybe it wasn't the wisest move in hindsight. But with a lot of reassurances from WotC, and decades of smooth sailing, it seemed like the free ride would never stop. Now that it might, it's certain to affect the people who planned on it for years to come. No one should look down on creators that might soon have to scramble to continue to pay the bills.
A lot of people love using the 3rd party publications in their games. They depend on them for their fun. Even if they couldn't get nearly the same thing from another game, they're still potentially losing something now.
People can't help but feel passionately about their jobs and their hobby. In reality, maybe everyone should appreciate all of the years of free stuff they already got. The royalty-free business. The free publicity. The wealth of game material to play with. All things that would never have existed without the OGL.
But they still might be losing something now. And that's still going to hurt. And people are going to feel betrayed because WotC did make it seem like it would never change.
Some people feel like they are being attacked or insulted. The reality is really more like WotC said we could live in their basement for as long as we want without paying rent. We moved in, got comfortable. Over the years we bought furniture for it. We made it our home. Then we turned it into a home office. We started running a bar out of it. We made some good money sometimes. WotC made money too for their own home business from the cross traffic. The neighborhood loved us. And then WotC knocked on the door and said that we'd really need to start paying rent now or please move out. We did get a nice deal for a very long time. But things are changing. And we need to find rent money or figure out where to move now. And we have to do it fast.
They aren't stealing anything from anyone. They're changing the rules. No one has to play by them. Everyone can pack up and move out. They'll have no rent, and no friends.
The only thing is, they haven't presented the terms of the lease to us yet. Someone said they found a draft copy of it. And it looks like it might be real. But it's not yet. So maybe we shouldn't start packing right away.
Anyway, that's why I think it's different. Why the DnD OGL is not the same as other companies. I'm not personally going to make any decisions until we get the actual terms. I don't have a large stake in it either though. I don't use 3rd party content, and I don't make it. I don't think fearmongering is helpful to anyone. But I also understand the fear that some people might have. And I figure it will all work out one way or the other. If they really screw this up, I'll go see what new games people like to play and join them. I'll always be able to play RPGs. WotC isn't guaranteed the same bright future.
Effectively, WOTC will be putting a 20% or 25% tax on top of every third party content creator.
Do remember that the royalties will not be charged for the first $750,000 of revenue, and you will only have to give a percentage of all the money above that number to Wizards. Also, Wizards explicitly said that they would only charge the people who made this massive amount of money, so saying that they're putting a "tax on top of every third party content creator" is downright incorrect.
It is important to remember that these are unconfirmed leaks. This would be bad if it were real, but we can't be sure that it is. I would recommend patience before panicking, because while you may be right and the sky may be falling, we really just don't know yet.
Note though they reserve the right to modify those numbers at any time and just need to give 30 days notice to creators
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
Nobody is panicking. They are simply voicing their concerns with the current situation. I assume you don't like when others minimize your concerns but maybe you do. Additionally, voicing concerns PRIOR to something becoming official is the BEST time to do so. That's why playtesting UA, alpha or beta content is a thing.
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
Nobody is panicking. They are simply voicing their concerns with the current situation. I assume you don't like when others minimize your concerns but maybe you do. Additionally, voicing concerns PRIOR to something becoming official is the BEST time to do so. That's why playtesting UA, alpha or beta content is a thing.
No one's concerns should be minimized for sure. But there are people on these forums today saying they have already canceled their subscriptions, that they will leave the game forever and actively try to turn others away too, and that it's going to destroy everything good about DnD. That sounds a little like panic. Or at least, panic is a fairly succinct word that doesn't feel too far off the mark. It's okay if someone panics over something. There is nothing shameful about it. And there is nothing wrong with other people trying to help calm them.
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
The "leaks" have:
1) A journalist on record citing exact clauses with numerous independent sources verifying parts of it, including Kickstarter's Jon Ritter, Director of Games. 2) Fit a trend of comments and behaviour seen from Hasbro and WotC regarding the future of D&D 3) Even if unfounded, deserve to treated as a serious threat against the community and market as a whole unless and until proven otherwise. 4) Is now subject for a formal request for comment from at least one law firm representing 2 third party publishers as well as a warning of potential litigation in response.
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
Nobody is panicking. They are simply voicing their concerns with the current situation. I assume you don't like when others minimize your concerns but maybe you do. Additionally, voicing concerns PRIOR to something becoming official is the BEST time to do so. That's why playtesting UA, alpha or beta content is a thing.
No one's concerns should be minimized for sure. But there are people on these forums today saying they have already canceled their subscriptions, that they will leave the game forever and actively try to turn others away too, and that it's going to destroy everything good about DnD. That sounds a little like panic. Or at least, panic is a fairly succinct word that doesn't feel too far off the mark. It's okay if someone panics over something. There is nothing shameful about it. And there is nothing wrong with other people trying to help calm them.
Then why are people being shamed for it?
Also, if people wanting to take their money elsewhere because of a potential direction they see a company going is panicking or panic-adjacent, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
Nobody is panicking. They are simply voicing their concerns with the current situation. I assume you don't like when others minimize your concerns but maybe you do. Additionally, voicing concerns PRIOR to something becoming official is the BEST time to do so. That's why playtesting UA, alpha or beta content is a thing.
No one's concerns should be minimized for sure. But there are people on these forums today saying they have already canceled their subscriptions, that they will leave the game forever and actively try to turn others away too, and that it's going to destroy everything good about DnD. That sounds a little like panic. Or at least, panic is a fairly succinct word that doesn't feel too far off the mark. It's okay if someone panics over something. There is nothing shameful about it. And there is nothing wrong with other people trying to help calm them.
Then why are people being shamed for it?
Also, if people wanting to take their money elsewhere because of a potential direction they see a company going is panicking or panic-adjacent, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Nothing Boring Bard said sounded like shaming to me. If you personally felt shamed by it, no one can change that. I just don't think it was Bard's intent at all. Nothing they have said has ever seemed antagonistic to me. They've always been a very reasonable and polite contributor here.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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I very much like the DNDBeyond + Beyond20 + Roll20 tech setup for running my games, and this shit is all just disheartening as all hell. I will likely end up switching systems if they go forward with this iteration of the current OGL or maybe I just stop roleplaying like I did during 4E when they pulled the same stunt.
Question? Why is none else complaining that no other company provides a OGL? you cant make your own stuff for other game systems and distribute it.
A lawyer answers questions about the (O)GL 1.1
https://medium.com/@MyLawyerFriend/lets-take-a-minute-to-talk-about-d-d-s-open-gaming-license-ogl-581312d48e2f
"Orcs are savage raiders and pillagers with stooped postures, low foreheads, and piggish faces with prominent lower canines that resemble tusks." MM p245 (original printing)
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I would like to remind everyone that the "leaks" about OGL 1.1 are unconfirmed and unverified. If Wizards of the Coast announces the next Open Game License, and Gizmodo was correct, then feel free to get angry with them. But right now at least, it's feels just a bit too early to panic.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.Other companies do provide one (though not all). Monte Cook provides the csol to publish whatever you want using the cypher system for example.
100% agree with this.
Effectively, WOTC will be putting a 20% or 25% tax on top of every third party content creator.
Assume, after all of the other manufacturing costs, that 3rd part companies currently have profit margins in the 5% - 15% range = they make $5 on every $100 of revenue. Now, WOTC says that you owe us $20 or $25 in addition to all of your other costs. The 3rd party will have to increase their prices to account for the WOTC royalty, which has the impact of lower overall demand for their product and possibly pushing it out of business if the new price goes to high.
Would you pay $60 - $65 dollars for Tome of Beasts, or any of the other hardcover 3rd party books? Because that's the price you're looking at under the new system.
I don't like much of anything coming out of WOTC these days, and am glad that I'm moving over to OSE Advanced.
most dont.
Do remember that the royalties will not be charged for the first $750,000 of revenue, and you will only have to give a percentage of all the money above that number to Wizards. Also, Wizards explicitly said that they would only charge the people who made this massive amount of money, so saying that they're putting a "tax on top of every third party content creator" is downright incorrect.
It is important to remember that these are unconfirmed leaks. This would be bad if it were real, but we can't be sure that it is. I would recommend patience before panicking, because while you may be right and the sky may be falling, we really just don't know yet.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.This whole fiasco proves that WotC have completely lost the heart of the game.
It's money-hungry, video game style predatory monetisation manifest. I've never been much for video games but I've seen friends and family grow frustrated and despondent with their hobby over this happening in that space and now the awful practices are seemingly spreading. The OGL is the spirit of the game that has been carried since the 70s, D&D is a folk ruleset with general guidance that is shared and modified from group to group. It's magical in that way and no other game quite matches its appeal and popularity because of it!
Well I won't have it, if Dungeons & Dragons loses its soul as it seems will be the case if they continue down this path deep into the Nine Hells then I'm going to jump ship to another game. I guess Pathfinder is gonna get another massive wave of new arrivals, hopefully if WotC goes ahead with this it sinks them. But I worry that much like video games make people miserable nowadays tabletop games will get consumed by the same misery.
Also the rules aren't really going in a way I like and I sniff digital microtransactions on the horizon ruining everything. Beyond the OGL and the fact that WotC has decided to become super draconian (as others have pointed out I do love the irony in that) I think that if they decide to pursue this awful route the only way to fight it is to walk away and play something else. Vote with your time and your money; the latter being the only thing they seemingly care about.
Ah well, there will always be cool indie RPGs to play, I'm gonna run a game of Spire: The City Must Fall. Check it out if you guys like drow and urban fantasy.
Sure they might not, but they could as well. Pathfinder getting to big? Sorry Paizo you only got 30 days to remove anything related to the 3.0/3.5 SRD from Pathfinder and Starfinder. Any products you have in the pipeline need to be redone.
The fact they want the clauses in this updated OGL and for it to invalidate the previous OGLs despite that not being the intention of the OGL is extremely anti consumer and anti competitive. And that doesn't even get into the fact that there are licensed RPGs based on the OGL and 5E, such as Dark Souls, which if this updated OGL goes into effect would almost certainly break the license agreements those companies have with the license holders for those IPs.
This might sound mean, but it's not meant to be. It's intended to just be an honest look. The reasons it's different for DnD include -
It's the biggest game out there. Even if other games offered similar licenses, it wouldn't be the same market. No one is making million dollar kickstarters on the back of other games.
People got used to having the OGL. Some made a lot of money with it. It was an exceptionally good deal. You could create rules that used the massive success of the biggest game out there to fuel your own sales with zero royalties. There is hardly anything like it in creative spaces. When a deal that good goes away, even if it was more than anyone could have hoped for, it feels like a loss.
People built whole businesses around this model. Maybe it wasn't the wisest move in hindsight. But with a lot of reassurances from WotC, and decades of smooth sailing, it seemed like the free ride would never stop. Now that it might, it's certain to affect the people who planned on it for years to come. No one should look down on creators that might soon have to scramble to continue to pay the bills.
A lot of people love using the 3rd party publications in their games. They depend on them for their fun. Even if they couldn't get nearly the same thing from another game, they're still potentially losing something now.
People can't help but feel passionately about their jobs and their hobby. In reality, maybe everyone should appreciate all of the years of free stuff they already got. The royalty-free business. The free publicity. The wealth of game material to play with. All things that would never have existed without the OGL.
But they still might be losing something now. And that's still going to hurt. And people are going to feel betrayed because WotC did make it seem like it would never change.
Some people feel like they are being attacked or insulted. The reality is really more like WotC said we could live in their basement for as long as we want without paying rent. We moved in, got comfortable. Over the years we bought furniture for it. We made it our home. Then we turned it into a home office. We started running a bar out of it. We made some good money sometimes. WotC made money too for their own home business from the cross traffic. The neighborhood loved us. And then WotC knocked on the door and said that we'd really need to start paying rent now or please move out. We did get a nice deal for a very long time. But things are changing. And we need to find rent money or figure out where to move now. And we have to do it fast.
They aren't stealing anything from anyone. They're changing the rules. No one has to play by them. Everyone can pack up and move out. They'll have no rent, and no friends.
The only thing is, they haven't presented the terms of the lease to us yet. Someone said they found a draft copy of it. And it looks like it might be real. But it's not yet. So maybe we shouldn't start packing right away.
Anyway, that's why I think it's different. Why the DnD OGL is not the same as other companies. I'm not personally going to make any decisions until we get the actual terms. I don't have a large stake in it either though. I don't use 3rd party content, and I don't make it. I don't think fearmongering is helpful to anyone. But I also understand the fear that some people might have. And I figure it will all work out one way or the other. If they really screw this up, I'll go see what new games people like to play and join them. I'll always be able to play RPGs. WotC isn't guaranteed the same bright future.
Note though they reserve the right to modify those numbers at any time and just need to give 30 days notice to creators
Nobody is panicking. They are simply voicing their concerns with the current situation. I assume you don't like when others minimize your concerns but maybe you do. Additionally, voicing concerns PRIOR to something becoming official is the BEST time to do so. That's why playtesting UA, alpha or beta content is a thing.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/1410-ogls-srds-one-d-d
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I adore the fact that comments are turned off on that post.
No one's concerns should be minimized for sure. But there are people on these forums today saying they have already canceled their subscriptions, that they will leave the game forever and actively try to turn others away too, and that it's going to destroy everything good about DnD. That sounds a little like panic. Or at least, panic is a fairly succinct word that doesn't feel too far off the mark. It's okay if someone panics over something. There is nothing shameful about it. And there is nothing wrong with other people trying to help calm them.
The "leaks" have:
1) A journalist on record citing exact clauses with numerous independent sources verifying parts of it, including Kickstarter's Jon Ritter, Director of Games.
2) Fit a trend of comments and behaviour seen from Hasbro and WotC regarding the future of D&D
3) Even if unfounded, deserve to treated as a serious threat against the community and market as a whole unless and until proven otherwise.
4) Is now subject for a formal request for comment from at least one law firm representing 2 third party publishers as well as a warning of potential litigation in response.
Inter arma enim silent leges
Then why are people being shamed for it?
Also, if people wanting to take their money elsewhere because of a potential direction they see a company going is panicking or panic-adjacent, well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
Nothing Boring Bard said sounded like shaming to me. If you personally felt shamed by it, no one can change that. I just don't think it was Bard's intent at all. Nothing they have said has ever seemed antagonistic to me. They've always been a very reasonable and polite contributor here.