Quote from Roost1513 >>

Why would they call it an early draft if it had to be signed and returned by January 13th (today)?

 "That, detective, is the right question" :D

Quote from Roost1513 >>

Why would they call it an early draft if it had to be signed and returned by January 13th (today)?

 
"Silence Cash-cow!  How dare you try and bring logic into this.  Do as you are told and give us your money and your IP."

That is the same line of thinking that if there was never supposed to be a stream on Twitch last night, why did they have a ton of mods trying to do damage control in the chat?

I like this point...

"We didn't think you'd notice we were trying to rob you so now we're going to pretend that's not what we had in mind at all."

It's almost like they don't feel like they lost enough trust, so now they're trying to gaslight us. 

Cancelling a yearly sub that's already paid would not cost WOTC any money, but it might cost staff at DNDBeyond their jobs.

The vast majority of WOTC staff had nothing to do with the OGL licence so I am not going to blindly punish them for something they had no control over.

Obviously I'm disappointed with WOTC taking so long to act. However I do think a lot of this was groupthink as WOTC had already clarified that the OGL wouldn't be coming till mid January - so the 'due date' in the leak was a red flag.

We know WOTC shared early drafts for feedback because Kickstarter confirmed it.

So the simplest way to explain what happened is that WOTC sent the 1.1 draft to a group of 'big creators' for feedback - and forgot to remove or correct the 'You must sign and return by X date line'

Which was a very simple if dumb mistake as it made it looked like they were being forced to sign up to this new OGL licence with ZERO time nor means to negotiate.

So someone chose to leak it - and frankly with good reason, however I do think a lot of the claims made since are overblown.

Obviously it's deeply disappointing that the wording that implied WOTC had the right to ownership of all 3rd party content ever made it this far. 

WOTC should have known that even suggesting this would blow up their goodwill with the community as the exact same thing happened with Instragram years ago.

But to say that WOTC intended to require every homebrewer and user of the OGL going back to 3rd edition to sign up and report to WOTC in less then 2 weeks was obviously nonsense.

WOTC already explained in December that when the OGL was released it would come with video guides and a website so people could actually comply with it.

If WOTC had actually intended to have every single bit of homebrew or 3rd party content registered and reporting their earnings by the end of January they would have to build a entire department.

They would need thousands of people and high end servers just to oversee and enforce the OGL.

They'd also need huge teams of lawyers just to go after non complying small creators - all while opening themselves upto a whole lot of lawsuits for the lack of notice. 

Why would WOTC do this right at the time when they were relying on those same creators to transition to OneDND ??

So it's pretty clear thar this was a stupid mistake by WOTC. The wording was clearly adapted from a standard software licence agreement.

This was dumb. WOTC could have easily avoided the entire issue by using the Creative Commons system as the basis for the next OGL.

This would have made very clear what was 'common ownership' with the fans, and what was licenced or unlawful use.

So hopefully the positives of this is that we are getting a new non-WOTC OpenRPG licence which will not be under corporate control, and WOTC have been sent a very clear message to tread carefully on future licence changes.

Quote from ElMuggs >>

Cancelling a yearly sub that's already paid would not cost WOTC any money, but it might cost staff at DNDBeyond their jobs.

The vast majority of WOTC staff had nothing to do with the OGL licence so I am not going to blindly punish them for something they had no control over.

Obviously I'm disappointed with WOTC taking so long to act. However I do think a lot of this was groupthink as WOTC had already clarified that the OGL wouldn't be coming till mid January - so the 'due date' in the leak was a red flag.

We know WOTC shared early drafts for feedback because Kickstarter confirmed it.

So the simplest way to explain what happened is that WOTC sent the 1.1 draft to a group of 'big creators' for feedback - and forgot to remove or correct the 'You must sign and return by X date line'

Which was a very simple if dumb mistake as it made it looked like they were being forced to sign up to this new OGL licence with ZERO time nor means to negotiate.

So someone chose to leak it - and frankly with good reason, however I do think a lot of the claims made since are overblown.

Obviously it's deeply disappointing that the wording that implied WOTC had the right to ownership of all 3rd party content ever made it this far. 

WOTC should have known that even suggesting this would blow up their goodwill with the community as the exact same thing happened with Instragram years ago.

But to say that WOTC intended to require every homebrewer and user of the OGL going back to 3rd edition to sign up and report to WOTC in less then 2 weeks was obviously nonsense.

WOTC already explained in December that when the OGL was released it would come with video guides and a website so people could actually comply with it.

If WOTC had actually intended to have every single bit of homebrew or 3rd party content registered and reporting their earnings by the end of January they would have to build a entire department.

They would need thousands of people and high end servers just to oversee and enforce the OGL.

They'd also need huge teams of lawyers just to go after non complying small creators - all while opening themselves upto a whole lot of lawsuits for the lack of notice. 

Why would WOTC do this right at the time when they were relying on those same creators to transition to OneDND ??

So it's pretty clear thar this was a stupid mistake by WOTC. The wording was clearly adapted from a standard software licence agreement.

This was dumb. WOTC could have easily avoided the entire issue by using the Creative Commons system as the basis for the next OGL.

This would have made very clear what was 'common ownership' with the fans, and what was licenced or unlawful use.

So hopefully the positives of this is that we are getting a new non-WOTC OpenRPG licence which will not be under corporate control, and WOTC have been sent a very clear message to tread carefully on future licence changes.

 
Have you heard of Occam's Razor? I find it far less likely that Hasbro made a cavalcade of mistakes and poor timing hiccups rather than believing a large corporation and their executives decided to overreach and thought they wouldn't get caught. They have already said they wanted to squeeze more money out of D&D, their employees have already stated that their management is only concerned with the bottom line, and they have already showed just how greedy they are over the past three years with MTG.

Saying not to do anything that might negatively affect the company is naïve. Protests that do not inconvenience do not accomplish anything.

That's exactly my point - Hasbro and WOTC's Legal department would have been behind the wording of that draft OGL licence.

None of them would be hurt by people cancelling current DNDBeyond subscriptions.

What it will do is drop DNDBeyond future earnings forecasts which will prompt them to cut costs - and if you've seen what happened when Twitter the first thing to go is the staff.

It won't be the CEO's who get fired - they have expensive lawyers and contracts to protect them.

Instead you will hurt the low level staff who had nothing to do with the decision, and are the least able to handle it.

The entire point of the campaign to stop the OGL1.1 was to protect creators.

Well WOTC staff are also creators, they are real people with real lives and familes who rely on WOTC for a paycheck.

So why punish the DNDBeyond developers and support staff now that WOTC has clearly gotten the message?

Quote from ElMuggs >>

That's exactly my point - Hasbro and WOTC's Legal department would have been behind the wording of that draft OGL licence.

None of them would be hurt by people cancelling current DNDBeyond subscriptions.

What it will do is drop DNDBeyond earnings which will prompt them to cut costs - and if you've seen what happened when Twitter the first thing to go is the staff.

It won't be the CEO's who get fired - they have expensive lawyers and contracts to protect them.

Instead you will hurt the low level staff who had nothing to do with the decision, and are the least able to handle it.

The entire point of the campaign to stop the OGL1.1 was to protect creators.

Well WOTC staff are also creators, they are real people with real lives and familes who rely on WOTC for a paycheck.

So why punish the DNDBeyond developers and support staff now that WOTC has clearly gotten the message?

 
Because if you do nothing, nothing will change, and these are the metrics they look at. They haven't gotten the message yet, seeing as their reply is still lying to us.

They have already dropped the plan to use the OGL1.1. 

Your free to think of it all as some great conspiracy theory, but it helps to actually look at the context and logic that Hasbro is in a very risky place with DND right now. 

They want to make money off DND, but can't if people simply refuse to buy what they're selling.

We as players are free to say yes or no to each thing WOTC does.

I personally say 'no' to anything that stinks of Hasbro like the toys or recent 'Dragonlance DND Beyond bundle that hurt game stores.

But to say that WOTC as a whole are 'evil' is nonsense. They are real people and bullying/harassing DNDBeyond staff and threatening their jobs over this leak really isn't cool.

Quote from ElMuggs >>

They have already dropped the plan to use the OGL1.1. 

Your free to think of it all as some great conspiracy theory, but it helps to actually look at the context and logic that Hasbro is in a very risky place with DND right now. 

They want to make money off DND, but can't if people simply refuse to buy what they're selling.

We as players are free to say yes or no to each thing WOTC does.

I personally say 'no' to anything that stinks of Hasbro like the toys or recent 'Dragonlance DND Beyond bundle that hurt game stores.

But to say that WOTC as a whole are 'evil' is nonsense. They are real people and bullying/harassing DNDBeyond staff and threatening their jobs over this leak really isn't cool.

 

 
Sounds good, we will agree to disagree; however, what you are saying seems incredibly disingenuous to me.

WoTC is not evil and I have not claimed it as such. Leadership has overstepped its bounds, and demonstrated a persistent behavior of favoring short term gains over the health of the product or industry; and unless they put in writing that they can't, I would expect them to attempt to do it again at the next opportunity. This is the core of the issue to me, and their plans they have purposed do nothing in this regard.

Threatening people or harassing them is also completely unacceptable. However, telling people that they should continue to buy into a service that is in questionable rapport is ludicrous. Saying that refusing to pay a company is the same as threatening their employees is asinine.

There are cool people everywhere. And most of them in DnDBeyond and WotC knew nothing about this bullshit before it became public. However, this has nothing to do with them. Deciding to hurt a company bottom line is the ONLY way to influence its behavior. The same way taxes are the best way to influence people. If you are waiting for their heart to change, you will wait for a long time.

If I were working for DnDBeyond, I would think about backup plans, but I would not be mad at clients because they decided my mother company's actions were bullshit. I would be mad at the top management though. Not everybody can change job on a whim to reflect the strength of their position, I understand that. But in the end, you can not let billion dollar companies get away with this kind of shit, or at least, you can decide to not fuel it with your money.

WotC is not evil... sure. But rank and file staff don't make these decisions. Execs do. And execs only understand money. So take it away from them and let the dice roll where it will. At least that's what I will do. The answer about OGL1.1 was condescending, arrogant and full of lies and deception. Read between the lines, compare with their precedent actions, confirmed leaks and yeah, get that razor out because good old Occam is more often right than not.

It is not cool. But screwing over the 3rd parties that helped make that brand what it is today by trying shady legal moves is not cool either. So, I'll choose to defend the people working in smaller companies over ones owned by giant megacorps. But yeah, some people will probably lose their job over this, and for most of them, it will be unfair. Sadly, that doesn't mean that it isn't the right thing to do.

I don't have issue with wizard want money for thier IP, but 25% is stupid outrageous.  5% make more sense with option to see the 3rd party content in dndbeyibd which not only getsb3rd content out there for all and make more money for 3rd party and wotc, but also makes it easier for players to use in their games, like how critical role and acquisition incorporated where added.

As for the stealing creator content without giving royalty to the creator's....that's a hell no from me and just out right evil of wotc.  Whomever thought that was a great thing to get added to the ogl should be demoted.

But lastly the audacity to mistreat customers like walking wallets and not as people....the folks who approved such a thing....go fudge yourself.  We are all humans and shpuld all be treated with respect.  We sub on dndbeyond and buy d&d books cause we love the game, the story, the lore, and having fun.  You think we love to pay $30 to $50 for books?  Hell no, it's a labor of love from us.  3rd party gives out better content for cheaper or free, but we want to support the original d&d too.  But treating us like you did.....you can really see the true colors of those "bottom dollar" suits who have 0 cares about anything other then their own millions....

I own pretty much all books on dndbeyond, have over 350 characters, and have master subscription, I love d&d and dndbeyond and was even excited for wotc to buy dndbeyond.  But this dick move by wotc... unno my sub renew is in 1 week, may just cancel it.

I never said people should 'buy into DNDBeyond or any other WOTC service, simply that people choosing to end their subscriptions thinking it would somehow 'hurt' those CEO's and people responsable for the OGL is misleading and will hurt innocent people.

Personally if they did go ahead with the planned changes obviously I would be cancelling and fully supporting a move away from WOTC.

But right now the community has spoken, the staff at WOTC have made clear their position. Odds are that Hasbro will not be happy with WOTC right now.

People are still upset, that is okay. But the changes and December post showed that the staff at WOTC was aware that hurting their community risked their future. Odds are they never wanted the OGL 1.1 to have those features in the first place.

So for those staff I'm happy to stay on board for solidarity and support or else there won't be a Wizards of the Coast or future 'offical' DND content.

Which might be okay for you. But its not okay with me.

Quote from ElMuggs >>

I never said people should 'buy into DNDBeyond or any other WOTC service, simply that people choosing to end their subscriptions thinking it would somehow 'hurt' those CEO's and people responsable for the OGL is misleading and could hurt innocent people.

Personally if they did go ahead with the planned changes obviously I would be cancelling and fully supporting a move away from WOTC.

But right now the community has spoken, the staff at WOTC have made clear their position. Odds are that Hasbro will not be happy with WOTC right now.

People are still upset, that is okay. But the leaks show the staff at WOTC was never happy with this direction, so they need our solidarity and support or else there won't be a Wizards of the Coast or future 'offical' DND content.

Which might be okay for you. But its not okay with me.

 
I think that's where the difference of our opinion truly lies then is. I don't think people are canceling their subscriptions to "emotionally" hurt WoTC leadership, they are doing it either because they feel that the actions taken so far are unconscionable and will not be dealing with D&DBeyond further, or that the actions that they have taken so far are harmful and what they have done and promised to do so far are not enough to earn back their business.

how lucky we are that wizards bought dndbeyond :D 

Of course it wont hurt the people taking these stupid decisions. That's almost a constant of companies. Top people rarely actually assume responsability.
That doesn't mean that you can believe what their answer was. It was a PR spin, nothing else. They showed you their real intent and what they are sorry for is that they got caught.

Nothing changed. Apart from motivating other companies to make their own license. That was actually a masterful move by Paizo. But then, that's not their first time being on the right side of the community. Which is a business decision by the way. Just one that treats people with respect.

Cancelled sub.  It expires in October.  I won't renew unless they walk it all back.  OGL 1a or bust.

In the meantime I've opened an account with Paizo and bought all their books.  Also getting excited about the OSR.

D&D Beyond has useful tools and HomeBrew capability that will continue to make it useful, even if another gaming system is used.  If D&D Beyond restricts exporting to only OneD&D (which I think is a truly laughable concept) then I would definitely cancel my subscription, as that would make the site unusable for me.  I do not know what the proposed changes to the OGL are, or what impact it will have on D&D Beyond which as far as I can tell is completely unrelated, so I will wait and see what happens and what the impact is before I go to another source.  I have been playing D&D for 40 years.  I'm not going to stop playing just because some pencil-heads think they can monetize a game that has been around and developed by the players for longer than most of them have been alive.  They own the name, but they are not the ones who drive the game forward.  We will continue to play with or without them.  My brother and I developed our own system 30 years ago, and even though I enjoy 5e, I can easily create my own game, environment, and encounters, and with the new VTTs, run my own server, if necessary.  Just like Fan Fiction, it is the player input that will continue to lead the game into the future.  No one is dependent on Hasbro, and WotC are all smart enough to know who butters their bread, and what we are capable of.

I did the exact same thing today! I ordered every book from Paizo's 2E Pathfinder.

DDB subscription canceled. Reason: “OGL 1.1”. done.