Both my son and I, who were Premium Tier members and owned ALL the content (some $900 worth of digital materials), cancelled our subscriptions and my wife also cancelled her free subscription. Additionally, we cancelled our Critical Role Twitch subscription, now years old, given D&D Beyond's support of the show. And, just got the confirmation that my Dragonlance pre-order was also successfully cancelled.
Essentially, if Wizards or DDB is associated with it, we're walking away.
So in order to disassosciate with Beyond over the OGL thing you are punishing Critical Role, one of the 3rd party content creators that people are fighting the new OGL in order to protect? That may not be the most brilliant plan but I fully support your right to carry it out.
I agree. Don't punish the 3PP - stick to WotC/Hasbro/D&DB. Critical Role and the other guys are not the bad guys here...
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Even by your own admission both would take a large effort of monetary contributions or a lot of other actions to happen before they can be expected to jump in - just another reason that I don't think anyone should be holding their breath and waiting for this to go to court and see what happens.
This is an issue that, if WotC wants, can take years to settle. That's the point.
A bit too dismissive
It's not dismissive, it's realistic. The part I'd label as dismissive is people thinking that we're going to fix what WotC is doing by just waiting for... someone, an unknown anyone, to take them to court and get a favorable ruling. Somehow they're supposed to magically do this in record time too; forget the fact that these kinds of cases pretty much always drag on for literally years. I'm an illustrator, the number of peers I've had over the years that tried to take Hallmark or Target to court over copyright infringement are numerous, the number of those instances that were settled in under a year? Zero. Unless you count the ones where the individual artist gave up the suit.
Being right isn't enough in a court of law. It is in principle, but not in practice, or reality.
To everyone that disagrees with me; reiterate what you disagree with. Do you think that I'm just wrong, and that WotC will be taken to court and within, idk, a month or two from now we'll have a ruling on the books saying they were wrong about their ability to deauthorize the OGL? What is it specifically you think I'm wrong about? Because I don't know of any courts that move that fast for starters, least of all civil courts about IP law, just getting a court date can take years itself - especially now that they're dealing with the backlog that COVID caused - how do you see this shaking out differently? Because I'm just not sure what it is y'all even think I'm wrong about. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the court of law in the US is slow, and it was my impression that we wanted an answer/solution to this whole OGL debacle in under 6 months. So which is it?
The very existence of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and the very existence of Class Action Lawsuits demonstrate that you are too dismissive. I brought it up without any pretense that it would be easy. Is it viable? Perhaps. I'm not so incredibly certain of the capabilities of large groups as you appear to be. So, yes, you were too dismissive.
... The fact that these things exists shows that I'm too dismissive? What are you even talking about? You genuinely are not making sense.
What do you even think I was saying in the first place? Because I don't think you understood me... like... at all.
A legal battle will take time. At the very least 9 months, but much more realistically, several years. Is this a situation that you want to drag on for several years?
You can say that WotC/Hasbro has no legal right to do this and you MAY BE RIGHT, but that WILL NOT MATTER when the social damage will be done and the third party content creators will be long gone because they don't know where the OGL or their right to make D&D content stands. The fact that there were several DAYS of uncertainty already created a huge divide in the content creators, many swearing off making D&D content altogether already - and that was in less than a month. How long do you think the community will last with an extended legal battle? Content creators aren't going to stick around to see who wins and who loses a year later, they're just going to go make Pathfinder or VtM content and switch gears altogether and call it good.
That's the point. The damage has already been bad, waiting on a legal solution will only make it worse because of TIME. You can be right or wrong but it won't matter, because the time it takes to go through the process and find out is in and of itself the problem. IDK why you don't get that.
Even by your own admission both would take a large effort of monetary contributions or a lot of other actions to happen before they can be expected to jump in - just another reason that I don't think anyone should be holding their breath and waiting for this to go to court and see what happens.
This is an issue that, if WotC wants, can take years to settle. That's the point.
A bit too dismissive
It's not dismissive, it's realistic. The part I'd label as dismissive is people thinking that we're going to fix what WotC is doing by just waiting for... someone, an unknown anyone, to take them to court and get a favorable ruling. Somehow they're supposed to magically do this in record time too; forget the fact that these kinds of cases pretty much always drag on for literally years. I'm an illustrator, the number of peers I've had over the years that tried to take Hallmark or Target to court over copyright infringement are numerous, the number of those instances that were settled in under a year? Zero. Unless you count the ones where the individual artist gave up the suit.
Being right isn't enough in a court of law. It is in principle, but not in practice, or reality.
To everyone that disagrees with me; reiterate what you disagree with. Do you think that I'm just wrong, and that WotC will be taken to court and within, idk, a month or two from now we'll have a ruling on the books saying they were wrong about their ability to deauthorize the OGL? What is it specifically you think I'm wrong about? Because I don't know of any courts that move that fast for starters, least of all civil courts about IP law, just getting a court date can take years itself - especially now that they're dealing with the backlog that COVID caused - how do you see this shaking out differently? Because I'm just not sure what it is y'all even think I'm wrong about. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the court of law in the US is slow, and it was my impression that we wanted an answer/solution to this whole OGL debacle in under 6 months. So which is it?
The very existence of the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund and the very existence of Class Action Lawsuits demonstrate that you are too dismissive. I brought it up without any pretense that it would be easy. Is it viable? Perhaps. I'm not so incredibly certain of the capabilities of large groups as you appear to be. So, yes, you were too dismissive.
... The fact that these things exists shows that I'm too dismissive? What are you even talking about? You genuinely are not making sense.
What do you even think I was saying in the first place? Because I don't think you understood me... like... at all.
A legal battle will take time. At the very least 9 months, but much more realistically, several years. Is this a situation that you want to drag on for several years?
You can say that WotC/Hasbro has no legal right to do this and you MAY BE RIGHT, but that WILL NOT MATTER when the social damage will be done and the third party content creators will be long gone because they don't know where the OGL or their right to make D&D content stands. The fact that there were several DAYS of uncertainty already created a huge divide in the content creators, many swearing off making D&D content altogether already - and that was in less than a month. How long do you think the community will last with an extended legal battle? Content creators aren't going to stick around to see who wins and who loses a year later, they're just going to go make Pathfinder or VtM content and switch gears altogether and call it good.
That's the point. The damage has already been bad, waiting on a legal solution will only make it worse because of TIME. You can be right or wrong but it won't matter, because the time it takes to go through the process and find out is in and of itself the problem. IDK why you don't get that.
I don't know why you are so incredibly rude and obstinate. There are rumblings that some plan to continue to operate under the original OGL. There are plenty of permutations to consider. I don't know you from Adam but I don't question your basic intelligence. I do question your ability to dial back and reconsider all the dynamics and be more deliberative. You are quite aggressive over an exploratory remark I made. In my professional life, I tend to do research before I finish a project. I list alternatives and I explore them. Usually, my initial inclinations are born out. Occasionally, I have a happy discovery that I can improve on my projects thanks to being willing to research alternative solutions.
Even by your own admission both would take a large effort of monetary contributions or a lot of other actions to happen before they can be expected to jump in - just another reason that I don't think anyone should be holding their breath and waiting for this to go to court and see what happens.
This is an issue that, if WotC wants, can take years to settle. That's the point.
A bit too dismissive
It's not dismissive, it's realistic. The part I'd label as dismissive is people thinking that we're going to fix what WotC is doing by just waiting for... someone, an unknown anyone, to take them to court and get a favorable ruling. Somehow they're supposed to magically do this in record time too; forget the fact that these kinds of cases pretty much always drag on for literally years. I'm an illustrator, the number of peers I've had over the years that tried to take Hallmark or Target to court over copyright infringement are numerous, the number of those instances that were settled in under a year? Zero. Unless you count the ones where the individual artist gave up the suit.
Being right isn't enough in a court of law. It is in principle, but not in practice, or reality.
To everyone that disagrees with me; reiterate what you disagree with. Do you think that I'm just wrong, and that WotC will be taken to court and within, idk, a month or two from now we'll have a ruling on the books saying they were wrong about their ability to deauthorize the OGL? What is it specifically you think I'm wrong about? Because I don't know of any courts that move that fast for starters, least of all civil courts about IP law, just getting a court date can take years itself - especially now that they're dealing with the backlog that COVID caused - how do you see this shaking out differently? Because I'm just not sure what it is y'all even think I'm wrong about. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the court of law in the US is slow, and it was my impression that we wanted an answer/solution to this whole OGL debacle in under 6 months. So which is it?
They are already in the only court that the upper management type at both WotC and Hasbro can/will understand; the court of public opinion . . . the fan base. By hitting them where they can feel it, they will know that we have been heard. Hopefully, at the very least the current board at Hasbro, and the CEO at WotC, will be voted out for costing both companies $$$, something the stockholders can understand even if management itself is too blinded by their own rhetoric to understand.
I voted "Unsure". If the situation gets worse I may downgrade, but as of now, my friends and I don't rely on any 3rd-party content because I'm a DM who runs lots of homebrew campaigns and also has all the necessary sourcebooks. I think completely stopping subscriptions for every single D&D-related thing is over-the-top.
They are already in the only court that the upper management type at both WotC and Hasbro can/will understand; the court of public opinion . . . the fan base. By hitting them where they can feel it, they will know that we have been heard. Hopefully, at the very least the current board at Hasbro, and the CEO at WotC, will be voted out for costing both companies $$$, something the stockholders can understand even if management itself is too blinded by their own rhetoric to understand.
That is easy to say, but it does not make the fan base factually correct. People lobby and even outright riot over unreasonable expectations all throughout history. My home city of Vancouver, Canada, has had not one but two full riots over lost hockey games, where businesses in particular were smashed up on some false belief that 'the people' were promised a Stanley Cup win and those making the supposed promises lied.
The customer is not, in actuality, always right. Not even en mass.
This does not mean WotC are completely or even partially right, either, just that being less good for the consumer is not always an avoidable outcome.
This is not about riots in Vancouver over field hockey. You shouldn't draw comparison just so you have a comparison. It's about OGL 1.0a and support for the 3pp's and our hobby by canceling subscriptions. No one has to do it, it's voluntary.
They are already in the only court that the upper management type at both WotC and Hasbro can/will understand; the court of public opinion . . . the fan base. By hitting them where they can feel it, they will know that we have been heard. Hopefully, at the very least the current board at Hasbro, and the CEO at WotC, will be voted out for costing both companies $$$, something the stockholders can understand even if management itself is too blinded by their own rhetoric to understand.
That is easy to say, but it does not make the fan base factually correct. People lobby and even outright riot over unreasonable expectations all throughout history. My home city of Vancouver, Canada, has had not one but two full riots over lost hockey games, where businesses in particular were smashed up on some false belief that 'the people' were promised a Stanley Cup win and those making the supposed promises lied.
The customer is not, in actuality, always right. Not even en mass.
This does not mean WotC are completely or even partially right, either, just that being less good for the consumer is not always an avoidable outcome.
This is not about riots in Vancouver over field hockey. You shouldn't draw comparison just so you have a comparison. It's about OGL 1.0a and support for the 3pp's and our hobby by canceling subscriptions. No one has to do it, it's voluntary.
If you are going to attack an analogy, show material differences. My point was that people can and sometimes do riot even when it makes no sense and thus that the mere fact there are widespread protests does not mean, in and of itself, that the protesters are right in their assumptions.
It does not mean they are necessarily wrong, either. I was not saying that. I was only saying that an angry mob is not right simply because they are an angry mob.
No one had to riot in Vancouver, either. That was voluntary, too.
Are you seriously trying to compare physical mob mentality, where group psychology comes into play, with online dissent? And you think your comments will then proceed to be taken seriously?
Are you seriously trying to compare physical mob mentality, where group psychology comes into play, with online dissent? And you think your comments will then proceed to be taken seriously?
Okay. Good luck with that!
Why would group psychology not come into play in other group settings? Such as this?
What did Wotc's apology say, we won and you lost? or something like that :) Kotah you just went too far out the window with your comparison of riot Vancouver field hockey fans and innocent OGL 1.0a supporters for 23 years.
All you can do now is move on and try it in another thread or forum, but even there you will fail sooner or later because of yourself.
Are you seriously trying to compare physical mob mentality, where group psychology comes into play, with online dissent? And you think your comments will then proceed to be taken seriously?
Okay. Good luck with that!
Why would group psychology not come into play in other group settings? Such as this?
How about you, who is making the original assertion, go ahead and prove to all of us that online dissent against a large corporation is exactly comparable to a real life riot? The burden of proof is on you.
I canceled my subscription. I have also bought core books for both Pathfinder 2E and The One Ring 2E. I will continue to use 5E and my Adventures in Middle Earth campaigns will continue but WotC/Hasbro will get no more of my money. I will just be supporting 3rd parties and other rules systems/companies. Lots of 3rd party and other rules companies are making it easier than ever to get started. I have seen deals up to 70% off to gain interest and capture business from people dissatisfied with what is going on.
I would say stop attacking people who work for WotC or 3rd party folks who are not coming out as strongly as you feel they should. This is difficult for everyone so please try to direct your ire at the appropriate targets.
I think a lot of people don't realize that it doesn't really matter what is or isn't in their copyright or trademark or IP - if Wizards of the Coast wants to spend money on lawyers to run you out of business they can afford to do that more than any one player or small business. The OGL as it -was-, was in essence a promise from a major corporation that they weren't going to be suing everyone left right and center over this kind of thing because that wasn't their priority.
With a break in the status quo and the OGL, it's a BIG red flag to any content creators that lawsuits are back on the menu for WotC - that alone is going to cut down on 1/3rd of the creative market because people who are doing this stuff full time, and doing it well? are frankly too smart to keep investing their time and energy into products that could be made 'illegal' overnight on the whim of a corporation.
A huge reason that D&D is what it is today is because WotC promised not to do this, basically. They're now revoking that promise, and acting surprised pikachu face when everyone gets mad at them for it.
What you're describing is "Breach of Contract" and is legally actionable.
That's the point you seem to be missing... we DO have a legal and defensible position against Hasbro (and let's face it... this is really Hasbro's doing...) on this. Your defeatist attitude is pretty much giving your wallet to them and allowing the people who create VTTs and 3PP to starve.
Fighting back isn't just possible, it's already having an effect.
What, exactly, is the consideration on the part of Hasbro?
The difference between 1.1 and 1.2 for starters - and the fact that, based on their "playtest" they already know that 1.2 isn't going to fly (censorship, VTTs, etc.)...
Keep protesting. It's having an impact.
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Boycotts of goods and services are a time-honored strategy for organizing people who have less power individually and more power collectively to take on powerful companies that have caused harm, and it's disparaging to refer to that as an angry mob or groupthink.
Boycotts of goods and services are a time-honored strategy for organizing people who have less power individually and more power collectively to take on powerful companies that have caused harm, and it's disparaging to refer to that as an angry mob or groupthink.
So they are not angry? And are not a sizeable group of not-formally-organized people?
"Have caused harm" is debatable, since 1.0 is, in actuality still in place and more importantly, no one has been taken to court or even threatened with court. "May cause harm in the near future" is fair to say, but please explain the harm they have already done.
Before you get too deep into the debate, remember at least one of your "opponents" has referred to the Stanley Cup as a trophy for field hockey. That level of ignorance shows a genuine lack of ANY research or checking on things to see if they are valid. Sadly, it embodies the mob mentality you spoke of before, which is a proven thing, both online and in person. Those detracting or claiming it to be false might want to read up on it, but thus far, indications are it's easier to jump on the rowdy bandwagon that look things over objectively and make a decision of their own.
Tick Tock, the time for revision 1.3 to be shown draws closer. The way it's going, I would guess (and only a guess) that it will be around 1.5 before it's satisfying to enough folks to put it into play and move on.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Third party creators have cancelled projects for 5e that were in early development and are scrambling to pivot projects for 5e that were nearly developed due to Hasbro's move to try to renege on a 23-year-old license, which in turn reveals Hasbro to be an unreliable business partner for third party creators for the future of Dungeons and Dragons.
That costs third party creators time, energy, and other resources that they would not have used otherwise (and that, for many third party creators, they don't have in abundance - definitely not to the tune of a billion dollars like Wizards of the Coast), as well as closes off opportunities for them to create for the future of Dungeons and Dragons, which is harmful to them.
That means that, yes, Hasbro has caused harm with its move to revoke the Open Game License, with the threat of additional harm to come if the Open Game License is revoked and replaced with a license that is a worse deal for third party creators.
Hence, third party creators (supported by people who don't love only Hasbro and Dungeons and Dragons but love the tabletop roleplaying game community as a whole) are organizing their power collectively to take on the powerful multibillion dollar company that is Hasbro.
Honestly, this latest response is a good step in improving community relations. I think they need to make a OGL 1.0b that only adds the word irrevocable into the License, but this is the stance WotC needed to take. This has chased away third party publishers, which sucks, but they can at least now start rebuilding their reputation they burnt in the past month.
I have gone ahead and re-subbed, taking their steps at face value, but I can understand why many might not.
This was a very good step for them to take. Now if they could fire some executives and their massive salaries instead of their worker bees that create their content for them that'd be a bit better, but soulless capitalism will be soulless capitalism. Probably won't be renewing my sub quite just yet, wait for a paycheck or two, but they're working towards rebuilding. Now if they just don't try to pull this again when OneDnD/6e launches, they'll be very good.
Some hints for making your VTT competitive to Roll20 is probably Twitch integration, btw, WotC if you guys do read these. And if you do, thanks Kyle!
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"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.
I'm very happy that WotC has taken the steps they have, but I'm not going to give them credit for realizing their attempt to screw over third-party publishers as well as players failed miserably and they needed to backtrack. They didn't do this because they realized they weren't being a decent company, they did it because they were losing money and openly alienating their customers. The community proved that RPG would be just fine without D&D and this will remain true.
I fully expect that WotC is now planning how to gate One D&D successfully and researching how to sucker people into paying regular transactions to play it. Just because they gave up now doesn't mean they won't try again.
Meanwhile, my group is starting a Pathfinder 2e campaign next week and I'm excited to try it out.
My creds: I've been involved with game making nearly my entire adult life... except for that year between being 18 and 19 years old and hadn't yet discovered Dungeons & Dragons. I'll counter that with the "board games" my brother and I made when I was a pre-teen and the "miniatures rules" we created in our teen years to fight massive Airfix battles on Dad's pool table.
I wrote some of the first published D&D game adventures (with TSR's approval) in The Dungeoneer.
I designed D&D adventures for Judges Guild that are still being republished and played 43 years later.
I recruited, trained, and managed one of the first multi-discipline content creation teams for video games at Coleco.
I've written and edited game adventures and source books for D&D and AD&D for TSR and co-created Griffin Mountain for Chaosium.
I was on staff as an artist, and for a short time, as a mid-level manager for TSR during the final years of Lorraine Williams ownership of the company.
I created and developed the art for 3D game play environments at id Software (Quake 2, Quake 3), Ensemble Studios (Age of Empires III and Halo Wars), and CCP (World of Darkness MMORP).
These experiences as both a creator and a manager in both the tabletop and digital game worlds inform my opinions.
I’m going to put this as simply as I can.
WotC D&D management’s monetization goals for Dungeons & Dragons are going to fail.
And it has nothing to do with outraged content creators and threatened potential licensees, cancelled OGLs, or angry fans.
1. Table Top Role Play Game play sessions are at their very core, social events. They are about people getting together in real time and sharing the experience of gaming together as well. MMORPGs showed us that something, somewhat like the TTRPG experience can be simulated in computers, but not exactly. Every piece of game play content had to be created and tested ahead of time. It had to be tightly balanced to control player progression. It could not be customized by game moderators to be a better experience for familiar players. And after a time, the repetitive grinding play of MMORPGs experiences generated player loss and subscriptions were cancelled.
2. D&D and Magic the Gathering are distinctly different types of play. MtG can only be played with WotC-created materials and according to WotC dictated tournament rules. MtG players are expected to keep up to date with new cards if they expect to win. Because at its core, MtG is a play to win experience. Skill and luck factor in, but the more a player buys, the greater the chance of getting the cards that enable victory. Oh… and EVERY MtG player has to have WotC-created cards (there are apparently variations of MtG that can be played without them... but try doing that in a sanctioned tournament).
Playing D&D does not require more than one person having a single set of rules. And even then, it need not be the most current set of rules. The game does not require players to use WotC created or licensed accessories… or even any accessories at all. Notebook paper and unbranded dice purchased from an FLGS or online vendor will do. There is no need to constantly purchase rule updates, game accessories, or game miniatures, especially not ones licensed by WotC. It does not require constant spending to play and winning is not really a core concept of any RPG.
3. The reason TTRPGs (and other table top gaming experiences) have been successful over time is because they are low tech and consumer accessible. No computer, video game console, VR or AR headset has ever been required to play a D&D game on a table top. Rules may update, but they don’t make rule books that came before obsolete unless the consumers make that choice. I can play Dungeons & Dragons or Tunnels & Trolls with the rule books I acquired in 1975 if I choose.
4. Technology is going to be the final spear through this monetization plan’s heart. For some reason, D&D’s handlers in management haven’t wrapped their brains around the true cost in time and money of creating true 3D content. This is not the first time that I’ve seen this. I worked on Quake 2 and Quake 3 as a designer of 3D play environments. Those game engines, while cutting edge for their times, were still within the scope of user accessibility and allowed fans of the games to create playable game content from scratch. If they had a computer that could play the game well, they could make content. The same was true for Epic’s game engine used to create the first iteration of Unreal Tournament.
The complexity of Id Software’s Doom 3 engine and Epic’s Unreal 3 engine shifted the ability to create original game content outside the easily accessible grasp of players without special tools, training, and high-end modeling software. The requirements for content creation were at least a full order of magnitude more complex than was required to make Quake 3 content.
But the kicker was that at the time: I’m not sure id Software’s corporate or creative management realized that. Previous iterations of id games had been done in the time frame of a year or less with a double handful of developers. It took many years and a massive increase in staff for id to finish and ship Doom 3 with that new 3D graphic engine. An engine that was also, ultimately, not well-suited for making other games based on it as the Quake 2 and Quake 3 engines had been.
I see WotC management going down that same path. Creating the same bespoke 3D game spaces that simulate what can be created by a game moderator on graph paper and then be described with words of wonder during play is a non-trivial task requiring the talents of a team just to create a single play space. Ask anyone who has worked on 3D game worlds and I suspect they’ll back me up. Level designers, 3D artists, Texture artists, lighting specialists, and special effects artists all contribute to the process… and for each bespoke space, bespoke attention is required or it all ends up looking the same.
So, I expect that the former producer from Zynga (a name associated with questionable, if not evil practices in the mobile game space) may suggest a tile-based approach… meaning you are going to have play spaces more like Bards Tale or a digital implementation of Dwarven Forge or Fat Dragon tiles. That’s doable, but places severe limits on what original content can be created by subscribers. And while Roblox and Minecraft allow players to make their own shareable content, both require time commitments that take away from the time one might spend playing a game in them.
If they DO by chance create a workable system… any number of 3D game companies from indies to Microsoft’s id Software team or their Elder Scrolls teams will be able to do it much better. That was what Coleco did and many others since them. They came in after someone else had established the market at great cost, and made a better product.
And there may be a host of angry former D&D content creators, licensees, and players there to support those competitive efforts.
next version of the game is NOT going to be online only. That is ridiculous. WotC loves the small stores and even has made special covers for them and have in the past tried to promote events in stores. I dont see them moving to an all digital model. They are going to provide more online services that you can opt into if you want.
They do want to provide more products that Players and not just DMs want because that area has been neglected. DMs are the whales of D&D spending the majority of the money. We buy everything.
I agree. Don't punish the 3PP - stick to WotC/Hasbro/D&DB. Critical Role and the other guys are not the bad guys here...
Come watch us save the multiverse in "The Lost Dragons of Phandelver" - a homebrew based on Lost Mines of Phandelver, Dragon of Icespire Peak, and They Tyranny of Dragons.
https://www.twitch.tv/kdinla
The Gatewalker Saga - Dragons Beware
... The fact that these things exists shows that I'm too dismissive? What are you even talking about? You genuinely are not making sense.
What do you even think I was saying in the first place? Because I don't think you understood me... like... at all.
A legal battle will take time. At the very least 9 months, but much more realistically, several years. Is this a situation that you want to drag on for several years?
You can say that WotC/Hasbro has no legal right to do this and you MAY BE RIGHT, but that WILL NOT MATTER when the social damage will be done and the third party content creators will be long gone because they don't know where the OGL or their right to make D&D content stands. The fact that there were several DAYS of uncertainty already created a huge divide in the content creators, many swearing off making D&D content altogether already - and that was in less than a month. How long do you think the community will last with an extended legal battle? Content creators aren't going to stick around to see who wins and who loses a year later, they're just going to go make Pathfinder or VtM content and switch gears altogether and call it good.
That's the point. The damage has already been bad, waiting on a legal solution will only make it worse because of TIME. You can be right or wrong but it won't matter, because the time it takes to go through the process and find out is in and of itself the problem. IDK why you don't get that.
I don't know why you are so incredibly rude and obstinate. There are rumblings that some plan to continue to operate under the original OGL. There are plenty of permutations to consider. I don't know you from Adam but I don't question your basic intelligence. I do question your ability to dial back and reconsider all the dynamics and be more deliberative. You are quite aggressive over an exploratory remark I made. In my professional life, I tend to do research before I finish a project. I list alternatives and I explore them. Usually, my initial inclinations are born out. Occasionally, I have a happy discovery that I can improve on my projects thanks to being willing to research alternative solutions.
They are already in the only court that the upper management type at both WotC and Hasbro can/will understand; the court of public opinion . . . the fan base. By hitting them where they can feel it, they will know that we have been heard. Hopefully, at the very least the current board at Hasbro, and the CEO at WotC, will be voted out for costing both companies $$$, something the stockholders can understand even if management itself is too blinded by their own rhetoric to understand.
Watch your back, conserve your ammo,
and NEVER cut a deal with a dragon!
I voted "Unsure". If the situation gets worse I may downgrade, but as of now, my friends and I don't rely on any 3rd-party content because I'm a DM who runs lots of homebrew campaigns and also has all the necessary sourcebooks. I think completely stopping subscriptions for every single D&D-related thing is over-the-top.
If anybody would like my GMing playlists
battles: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2mRp57MBAz9ZsVpw895IzZ?si=243bee43442a4703
exploration: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/0qk0aKm5yI4K6VrlcaKrDj?si=81057bef509043f3
town/tavern: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/49JSv1kK0bUyQ9LVpKmZlr?si=a88b1dd9bab54111
character deaths: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/6k7WhylJEjSqWC0pBuAtFD?si=3e897fa2a2dd469e
This is not about riots in Vancouver over field hockey. You shouldn't draw comparison just so you have a comparison. It's about OGL 1.0a and support for the 3pp's and our hobby by canceling subscriptions. No one has to do it, it's voluntary.
Are you seriously trying to compare physical mob mentality, where group psychology comes into play, with online dissent?
And you think your comments will then proceed to be taken seriously?
Okay. Good luck with that!
What did Wotc's apology say, we won and you lost? or something like that :) Kotah you just went too far out the window with your comparison of riot Vancouver field hockey fans and innocent OGL 1.0a supporters for 23 years.
All you can do now is move on and try it in another thread or forum, but even there you will fail sooner or later because of yourself.
How about you, who is making the original assertion, go ahead and prove to all of us that online dissent against a large corporation is exactly comparable to a real life riot? The burden of proof is on you.
As I said; good luck with that.
I canceled my subscription. I have also bought core books for both Pathfinder 2E and The One Ring 2E. I will continue to use 5E and my Adventures in Middle Earth campaigns will continue but WotC/Hasbro will get no more of my money. I will just be supporting 3rd parties and other rules systems/companies. Lots of 3rd party and other rules companies are making it easier than ever to get started. I have seen deals up to 70% off to gain interest and capture business from people dissatisfied with what is going on.
I would say stop attacking people who work for WotC or 3rd party folks who are not coming out as strongly as you feel they should. This is difficult for everyone so please try to direct your ire at the appropriate targets.
The difference between 1.1 and 1.2 for starters - and the fact that, based on their "playtest" they already know that 1.2 isn't going to fly (censorship, VTTs, etc.)...
Keep protesting. It's having an impact.
Come watch us save the multiverse in "The Lost Dragons of Phandelver" - a homebrew based on Lost Mines of Phandelver, Dragon of Icespire Peak, and They Tyranny of Dragons.
https://www.twitch.tv/kdinla
The Gatewalker Saga - Dragons Beware
Boycotts of goods and services are a time-honored strategy for organizing people who have less power individually and more power collectively to take on powerful companies that have caused harm, and it's disparaging to refer to that as an angry mob or groupthink.
Before you get too deep into the debate, remember at least one of your "opponents" has referred to the Stanley Cup as a trophy for field hockey. That level of ignorance shows a genuine lack of ANY research or checking on things to see if they are valid. Sadly, it embodies the mob mentality you spoke of before, which is a proven thing, both online and in person. Those detracting or claiming it to be false might want to read up on it, but thus far, indications are it's easier to jump on the rowdy bandwagon that look things over objectively and make a decision of their own.
Tick Tock, the time for revision 1.3 to be shown draws closer. The way it's going, I would guess (and only a guess) that it will be around 1.5 before it's satisfying to enough folks to put it into play and move on.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Third party creators have cancelled projects for 5e that were in early development and are scrambling to pivot projects for 5e that were nearly developed due to Hasbro's move to try to renege on a 23-year-old license, which in turn reveals Hasbro to be an unreliable business partner for third party creators for the future of Dungeons and Dragons.
That costs third party creators time, energy, and other resources that they would not have used otherwise (and that, for many third party creators, they don't have in abundance - definitely not to the tune of a billion dollars like Wizards of the Coast), as well as closes off opportunities for them to create for the future of Dungeons and Dragons, which is harmful to them.
That means that, yes, Hasbro has caused harm with its move to revoke the Open Game License, with the threat of additional harm to come if the Open Game License is revoked and replaced with a license that is a worse deal for third party creators.
Hence, third party creators (supported by people who don't love only Hasbro and Dungeons and Dragons but love the tabletop roleplaying game community as a whole) are organizing their power collectively to take on the powerful multibillion dollar company that is Hasbro.
Honestly, this latest response is a good step in improving community relations. I think they need to make a OGL 1.0b that only adds the word irrevocable into the License, but this is the stance WotC needed to take. This has chased away third party publishers, which sucks, but they can at least now start rebuilding their reputation they burnt in the past month.
I have gone ahead and re-subbed, taking their steps at face value, but I can understand why many might not.
This was a very good step for them to take. Now if they could fire some executives and their massive salaries instead of their worker bees that create their content for them that'd be a bit better, but soulless capitalism will be soulless capitalism. Probably won't be renewing my sub quite just yet, wait for a paycheck or two, but they're working towards rebuilding. Now if they just don't try to pull this again when OneDnD/6e launches, they'll be very good.
Some hints for making your VTT competitive to Roll20 is probably Twitch integration, btw, WotC if you guys do read these. And if you do, thanks Kyle!
"I don't give a rat's f***ing ass how big it is, it can still bleed and I'm not dealing with this s*** a minute longer!!!" -Brass Khorne, Dragonborn Rogue/Fighter Battlemaster.
"Welcome to the Weeping Willow! Ale, rooms, or both?...Yes, dogs are fine, why does everyone ask that?" -Lucky Shot, Tabaxi Eldritch Knight and Innkeeper
"Greetings, I'm Sir Dexter of House Barkton. What do I do? I'm a Good Boy." -Dexter, Awakened Dog Rogue and knight of the realm.
I'm very happy that WotC has taken the steps they have, but I'm not going to give them credit for realizing their attempt to screw over third-party publishers as well as players failed miserably and they needed to backtrack. They didn't do this because they realized they weren't being a decent company, they did it because they were losing money and openly alienating their customers. The community proved that RPG would be just fine without D&D and this will remain true.
I fully expect that WotC is now planning how to gate One D&D successfully and researching how to sucker people into paying regular transactions to play it. Just because they gave up now doesn't mean they won't try again.
Meanwhile, my group is starting a Pathfinder 2e campaign next week and I'm excited to try it out.
Just going to leave this copy/paste here
that last copy paste post is practically unreadable
next version of the game is NOT going to be online only. That is ridiculous. WotC loves the small stores and even has made special covers for them and have in the past tried to promote events in stores. I dont see them moving to an all digital model. They are going to provide more online services that you can opt into if you want.
They do want to provide more products that Players and not just DMs want because that area has been neglected. DMs are the whales of D&D spending the majority of the money. We buy everything.