I just reactivated my subscription. I don't trust WotC anymore but they've done the first major thing I asked of them in my responses. I'm communicating my approval using the most direct means available. It's yet to be seen if I'll be spending any more money on new materials or keeping my subscription over the long term. That will depend on what WotC does next.
We need some real attention to the 5e sheet here on dndbeyond. We need the generic features system we were promised a while back. We need support for scaling summons/pets, sidekicks, patron dice, piety, and boatload of other official options. If they fix the problems with the sheet and make it so we can actually use all the 5e books that would go a long way towards making me feel ok about investing more money into digital materials.
Ideally they'll realize that if they want to emulate a digital company they need to work towards becoming Valve, not EA. They need to license the vtts as storefronts for official materials, work with vtts to create an api for distributing dndbeyond materials, and create a market for 3rd party materials on dndbeyond. I'm not saying I'm optimistic this will happen but it seems more possible today than it did last week.
If I resub... and it's a BIG if... it will not be for a long while. I will evaluate their sincerity and awareness that they depend on fans more than fans depend on them. If over the next year they don't try to pull this again, I will consider it. The only change for me is for now I will continue playing the game I've played for nearly 50 years, but hold the alternate materials close by. Trust takes years to build, but it can be lost in under a month, or a day. Once lost it takes a long while to recover it. People now doubt you.
I've learned the alternate system, just haven't started a game with it, so I'll continue DMing with 5e. Truth is, everyone knowing one system makes it easy to shift games. I DM 2 fantasy scenarios (purchased WotC modules) and play in 3 others which are homebrews: a fantasy, a StarWars setting, and a modern "hero" setting. All use(d) 5e as the basis, but two DMs are set on leaving 5e entirely. The hero one will be switching to the same alternate system as I purchased for my fall-back one [Pathfinder], and the VERY long-running fantasy one is also leaving, but going to a different format [FATE], so I'm learning a 3rd platform.
So now that wizards has backed down, apologized, and given the community a better deal than they had at the beginning of all of this.
How many of you are going to resubscribe?
I resubscribed this morning. Wizards not only backed down, they gave the SRD to everyone. Aside from the fact that DDB hasn't improved its product in the last 9 months, I'm pretty happy with them right now.
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron Satie
When all of this started I picked up Pathfinder 2nd edition with the Kingmaker 10th anniversary edition adventure path. At this point I'm locked for a minimum of a year as I plan to run it so I don't really have any reason to buy anything from Wizards of the Coast in the foreseeable future. At this stage I think the next thing will be to see what they do with 6th edition and I can tell you right now that whatever I buy of 6th edition, none of it will be digital. I expect full, traditional support for the game, meaning books. I suspect they are going to stick to their promise to release the game this way, but if this is some sort of VTT-supported-only edition, I won't be participating in that. I have no interest in their VTT plans.
As mentioned earlier, my subscription runs through August, and re-upping was based upon them not touching the OGL. To their credit they seem to be complying with that request, though I have to say I'm still more than a little distrustful of their motives and actions at this point. I will continue to wait and watch to see what happens, and if things remain status quo I will likely re-up in August so that I can play D&D with various folks.
That said, their unforced error has prompted my main gaming group to re-evaluate whether or not we even want to continue with D&D at all at this point. We have started exploring Pathfinder 2e, and to be honest while I had been sitting on the PDF rule books for awhile now, I had only skimmed them previously. Now that I'm actually reading them more carefully, and starting a Beginners Box adventure with a small subset of my regular players I'm finding I kinda like what Pathfinder 2e is offering quite a bit better.
The main advantage D&D has/had was DNDBeyond, but with the recent leaks noting that their leadership despises DNDBeyond and wants to see it killed off and replaced with what sounds like a skinner box style micro-transactions oriented VTT I'm not sure I want to keep riding this train to its eventual destination. And Pathfinder has DNDBeyond competing products out there with new ones coming soon that may close the gap sufficiently that it just won't matter.
Honestly I played D&D cause it was the default option and comfortable. WotC really screwed up cause it gave the swift kick that I think a lot of folks needed to go exploring options. I really do hope this busted WotC's near 80% dominance in online RPG playing and helps to bring other games into the light. I don't expect parity, but I think good market competition is probably the best check on WotC's unbridled greed.
I have no need to resubscribe right away. OTOH, the act of NOT resubscribing could end up tanking DND Beyond and I do like having it there as an option (and options is what this was all about in the first place).
I'll wait through at least February and March and see what happens. My subscription was going to run out beginning of February anyway and I'll probably be busy looking at other game systems.
My subscription does not end until December. I have the luxury of taking a wait and see attitude. I have 6 of the core PF 2E books, all of the TOR 2E books, plenty of 5E material to run games for the rest of my life, and I am pondering backing Cypher System. This does not even take into consideration Kobold Press and the multitube of other 3rd party creators and their upcoming releases. WotC will have to show me they have learned from this before they get any more of my money.
I requested, and today received, a refund on the remainder of my annual master tier subscription (which had 8 months remaining). That money has already gone towards the new system my group migrated to and I must say, we are all pretty satisfied thus far.
I plan to remain unsubscribed until: (1) quality from WOTC is sufficient to warrant my money again, (2) more information emerges in terms of their actions with regard to their offering of VTTs and the next DnD edition, and (3) until the other systems we've moved on to, and the companies that run them, don't feel far better to me.
For me, the balancing of classes/feats/subclasses/etc and responsiveness of WOTCs competitors in this situation have genuinely put WOTC to shame. The OGL issue was an unforced error that leaves a truly bad taste in my mouth. As many people have noted on various threads about this issue, this situation is very reminicient of the 2nd edition shenanigans from TSR and 4th edition poor design choices from WOTC. Perhaps its some higher power telling me to skip every other edition. ;)
wotc bought D&D Beyond for 143 million US last year. This is now the defacto electronic portal and forum for D&D. It is the first place to discuss D&D and wotc.
And an elevator might be the defacto way to ascend floors.
That doesn't make sharing the enclosed space with a stranger's flatulence any more enjoyable.
wotc bought D&D Beyond for 143 million US last year. This is now the defacto electronic portal and forum for D&D. It is the first place to discuss D&D and wotc.
And an elevator might be the defacto way to ascend floors.
That doesn't make sharing the enclosed space with a stranger's flatulence any more enjoyable.
Plenty of other topics to read. You can still enjoy your saloon. Just don't go in the private room with the sign above the door saying, "We are unhappy with this saloon".
Plenty of other topics to read. You can still enjoy your saloon. Just don't go in the private room with the sign above the door saying, "We are unhappy with this saloon".
I requested, and today received, a refund on the remainder of my annual master tier subscription (which had 8 months remaining). That money has already gone towards the new system my group migrated to and I must say, we are all pretty satisfied thus far.
I plan to remain unsubscribed until: (1) quality from WOTC is sufficient to warrant my money again, (2) more information emerges in terms of their actions with regard to their offering of VTTs and the next DnD edition, and (3) until the other systems we've moved on to, and the companies that run them, don't feel far better to me.
For me, the balancing of classes/feats/subclasses/etc and responsiveness of WOTCs competitors in this situation have genuinely put WOTC to shame. The OGL issue was an unforced error that leaves a truly bad taste in my mouth. As many people have noted on various threads about this issue, this situation is very reminicient of the 2nd edition shenanigans from TSR and 4th edition poor design choices from WOTC. Perhaps its some higher power telling me to skip every other edition. ;)
We will never know how many people quit D&D because of this company's blunders, but we DO know that both Kobold Press and Pazio sold out 8 months of their product in 2 weeks. That is a fact based on statements by both companies. KP has back tracked somewhat by saying their new products will still be 5e compatible, but all of wotc's former partners are going full speed ahead with a new system, which will be in direct competition for the same gaming discretionary income. 2023 is going to be a lean year for wotc.
Of course, in 2023 Ms. Williams will likely start executing on her vision to "fix the under-monetization problem", which means one thing, and that sure is not selling T-shirts. When that starts, that will trigger a whole new set of problems.
Kobold hasn't backtracked. Their game was always going to be 5e compatible. Or, more precisely, compatible with all of their current products. They've already published half of the stuff you'll need to run their game.
Probably stretching this analogy too far, but its not like most of the people here are the "anti-saloon" league. Most of us were happy customers, coming to get our fill of beer and peanuts on a regular basis, when new management moved in, and after a few months lets slip that they plan on gouging the regulars crazy amounts of money, and that all those brews they allowed to be served up by independent microbreweries were now going to be shut out, or forced to pay crazy amounts of money to be considered to be put on tap.
If I was a customer at that bar I'd be pretty pissed at the management, just the same way I'm pissed at WotC for taking a perfectly good product that saw a large engagement from a large number of people and then tried to monopolize it all. I'm about as pro-capitalist as they come and I get the stock market values short term earnings at an unreasonable level, but the good businesses, the ones you remember for decades and you keep coming back to are the ones that deliver a quality product with a customer friendly approach, and an industry developing attitude. Sadly it seems more and more companies are chasing the short term penny, while ignoring the long term dollar these days.
We are not anti-D&D, quite the opposite, we want to see D&D thrive and prosper, but not at the expense of customers being treated badly, and with the anti-consumer mindsets being held by the WotC leadership.
I am doing the same with my subscription and it, too, ends in December.
I like DDB and use it exclusively for my characters. I leverage it when on Roll20 and Foundry VTT's. Makes game play much simpler and more enjoyable. I use it as a DM to create encounters as well, leveraging those on the same VTT's. I have all the Source and Adventure books in hardcopy and in DDB. I mostly use those sources/adventures for Maps in my Roll20 campaigns, and I leverage the adventures as I build my campaign, re-skinning them to fit my needs, using them as general guidelines and ideas.
My campaign is a semi-homebrew based on the LMOP starter set and growing from them, integrating multiple additional WOTC adventures.
I rely on DDB and will continue to use it as long as our groups play 5E so long as WOTC keeps it enabled for 5E play with access to the materials I have purchased - UNLESS they change the subscription rates to soak the DM and the players.
Having said that, our groups are exploring other systems and tools. I am fine with that so long as there are digital toolsets similar to DDB to leverage - or make it easy to create and maintain characters and character sheets, at minimum.
I am a digital DM and player. I have the hardcopy books for reference and for collecting.
I think the issue is pretty much resolved now, no reason to unsubscribe (just for myself, not advocating what anyone else should do)!
I am VERY excited to see the ONE D&D coming out next year: I love the changes and how it is capable of being integrated into existing 5e modules, characters, etc.
I didn't see the ONE D&D playtesting here,
but I did watch a ton of YT vids on it from various creators, and they did a great job (imo again) of showing all the excellent things coming with ONE D&D. im staying subbed. I think good things are coming and that D&D Beyond will adapt accordingly.
I just reactivated my subscription. I don't trust WotC anymore but they've done the first major thing I asked of them in my responses. I'm communicating my approval using the most direct means available. It's yet to be seen if I'll be spending any more money on new materials or keeping my subscription over the long term. That will depend on what WotC does next.
We need some real attention to the 5e sheet here on dndbeyond. We need the generic features system we were promised a while back. We need support for scaling summons/pets, sidekicks, patron dice, piety, and boatload of other official options. If they fix the problems with the sheet and make it so we can actually use all the 5e books that would go a long way towards making me feel ok about investing more money into digital materials.
Ideally they'll realize that if they want to emulate a digital company they need to work towards becoming Valve, not EA. They need to license the vtts as storefronts for official materials, work with vtts to create an api for distributing dndbeyond materials, and create a market for 3rd party materials on dndbeyond. I'm not saying I'm optimistic this will happen but it seems more possible today than it did last week.
If I resub... and it's a BIG if... it will not be for a long while. I will evaluate their sincerity and awareness that they depend on fans more than fans depend on them. If over the next year they don't try to pull this again, I will consider it. The only change for me is for now I will continue playing the game I've played for nearly 50 years, but hold the alternate materials close by. Trust takes years to build, but it can be lost in under a month, or a day. Once lost it takes a long while to recover it. People now doubt you.
I've learned the alternate system, just haven't started a game with it, so I'll continue DMing with 5e. Truth is, everyone knowing one system makes it easy to shift games. I DM 2 fantasy scenarios (purchased WotC modules) and play in 3 others which are homebrews: a fantasy, a StarWars setting, and a modern "hero" setting. All use(d) 5e as the basis, but two DMs are set on leaving 5e entirely. The hero one will be switching to the same alternate system as I purchased for my fall-back one [Pathfinder], and the VERY long-running fantasy one is also leaving, but going to a different format [FATE], so I'm learning a 3rd platform.
I resubscribed this morning. Wizards not only backed down, they gave the SRD to everyone. Aside from the fact that DDB hasn't improved its product in the last 9 months, I'm pretty happy with them right now.
“With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably." - Starfleet Admiral Aaron SatieWhen all of this started I picked up Pathfinder 2nd edition with the Kingmaker 10th anniversary edition adventure path. At this point I'm locked for a minimum of a year as I plan to run it so I don't really have any reason to buy anything from Wizards of the Coast in the foreseeable future. At this stage I think the next thing will be to see what they do with 6th edition and I can tell you right now that whatever I buy of 6th edition, none of it will be digital. I expect full, traditional support for the game, meaning books. I suspect they are going to stick to their promise to release the game this way, but if this is some sort of VTT-supported-only edition, I won't be participating in that. I have no interest in their VTT plans.
As mentioned earlier, my subscription runs through August, and re-upping was based upon them not touching the OGL. To their credit they seem to be complying with that request, though I have to say I'm still more than a little distrustful of their motives and actions at this point. I will continue to wait and watch to see what happens, and if things remain status quo I will likely re-up in August so that I can play D&D with various folks.
That said, their unforced error has prompted my main gaming group to re-evaluate whether or not we even want to continue with D&D at all at this point. We have started exploring Pathfinder 2e, and to be honest while I had been sitting on the PDF rule books for awhile now, I had only skimmed them previously. Now that I'm actually reading them more carefully, and starting a Beginners Box adventure with a small subset of my regular players I'm finding I kinda like what Pathfinder 2e is offering quite a bit better.
The main advantage D&D has/had was DNDBeyond, but with the recent leaks noting that their leadership despises DNDBeyond and wants to see it killed off and replaced with what sounds like a skinner box style micro-transactions oriented VTT I'm not sure I want to keep riding this train to its eventual destination. And Pathfinder has DNDBeyond competing products out there with new ones coming soon that may close the gap sufficiently that it just won't matter.
Honestly I played D&D cause it was the default option and comfortable. WotC really screwed up cause it gave the swift kick that I think a lot of folks needed to go exploring options. I really do hope this busted WotC's near 80% dominance in online RPG playing and helps to bring other games into the light. I don't expect parity, but I think good market competition is probably the best check on WotC's unbridled greed.
I'm on the fence.
I have no need to resubscribe right away. OTOH, the act of NOT resubscribing could end up tanking DND Beyond and I do like having it there as an option (and options is what this was all about in the first place).
I'll wait through at least February and March and see what happens. My subscription was going to run out beginning of February anyway and I'll probably be busy looking at other game systems.
Well said.
My subscription does not end until December. I have the luxury of taking a wait and see attitude. I have 6 of the core PF 2E books, all of the TOR 2E books, plenty of 5E material to run games for the rest of my life, and I am pondering backing Cypher System. This does not even take into consideration Kobold Press and the multitube of other 3rd party creators and their upcoming releases. WotC will have to show me they have learned from this before they get any more of my money.
I requested, and today received, a refund on the remainder of my annual master tier subscription (which had 8 months remaining). That money has already gone towards the new system my group migrated to and I must say, we are all pretty satisfied thus far.
I plan to remain unsubscribed until: (1) quality from WOTC is sufficient to warrant my money again, (2) more information emerges in terms of their actions with regard to their offering of VTTs and the next DnD edition, and (3) until the other systems we've moved on to, and the companies that run them, don't feel far better to me.
For me, the balancing of classes/feats/subclasses/etc and responsiveness of WOTCs competitors in this situation have genuinely put WOTC to shame. The OGL issue was an unforced error that leaves a truly bad taste in my mouth. As many people have noted on various threads about this issue, this situation is very reminicient of the 2nd edition shenanigans from TSR and 4th edition poor design choices from WOTC. Perhaps its some higher power telling me to skip every other edition. ;)
Reddit? Facebook? Twitter?
I know there's not a damned thing I can do about this, but wouldn't it be nice if ANY other platform was used for all of this ongoing rabblerousing?
I know the buzz on those sites is ongoing.
I'm starting to feel like I'm going into my favorite pub just to find it overtaken by the Anti-Saloon League.
And an elevator might be the defacto way to ascend floors.
That doesn't make sharing the enclosed space with a stranger's flatulence any more enjoyable.
Like I said, nothing I can do about it.
Just...something to consider.
Don't click the link, my dude.
/\ What he said.
It's not the arrow with my name on it that worries me. It's the arrow that says, "To whom it may concern".
Fair enough.
Just rustles my jimmies I suppose 😉
Plenty of other topics to read. You can still enjoy your saloon. Just don't go in the private room with the sign above the door saying, "We are unhappy with this saloon".
Well put! :)
*moseys up to the bar*
Kobold hasn't backtracked. Their game was always going to be 5e compatible. Or, more precisely, compatible with all of their current products. They've already published half of the stuff you'll need to run their game.
Probably stretching this analogy too far, but its not like most of the people here are the "anti-saloon" league. Most of us were happy customers, coming to get our fill of beer and peanuts on a regular basis, when new management moved in, and after a few months lets slip that they plan on gouging the regulars crazy amounts of money, and that all those brews they allowed to be served up by independent microbreweries were now going to be shut out, or forced to pay crazy amounts of money to be considered to be put on tap.
If I was a customer at that bar I'd be pretty pissed at the management, just the same way I'm pissed at WotC for taking a perfectly good product that saw a large engagement from a large number of people and then tried to monopolize it all. I'm about as pro-capitalist as they come and I get the stock market values short term earnings at an unreasonable level, but the good businesses, the ones you remember for decades and you keep coming back to are the ones that deliver a quality product with a customer friendly approach, and an industry developing attitude. Sadly it seems more and more companies are chasing the short term penny, while ignoring the long term dollar these days.
We are not anti-D&D, quite the opposite, we want to see D&D thrive and prosper, but not at the expense of customers being treated badly, and with the anti-consumer mindsets being held by the WotC leadership.
I am doing the same with my subscription and it, too, ends in December.
I like DDB and use it exclusively for my characters. I leverage it when on Roll20 and Foundry VTT's. Makes game play much simpler and more enjoyable. I use it as a DM to create encounters as well, leveraging those on the same VTT's. I have all the Source and Adventure books in hardcopy and in DDB. I mostly use those sources/adventures for Maps in my Roll20 campaigns, and I leverage the adventures as I build my campaign, re-skinning them to fit my needs, using them as general guidelines and ideas.
My campaign is a semi-homebrew based on the LMOP starter set and growing from them, integrating multiple additional WOTC adventures.
I rely on DDB and will continue to use it as long as our groups play 5E so long as WOTC keeps it enabled for 5E play with access to the materials I have purchased - UNLESS they change the subscription rates to soak the DM and the players.
Having said that, our groups are exploring other systems and tools. I am fine with that so long as there are digital toolsets similar to DDB to leverage - or make it easy to create and maintain characters and character sheets, at minimum.
I am a digital DM and player. I have the hardcopy books for reference and for collecting.
Gray Mouser
I think the issue is pretty much resolved now, no reason to unsubscribe (just for myself, not advocating what anyone else should do)!
I am VERY excited to see the ONE D&D coming out next year: I love the changes and how it is capable of being integrated into existing 5e modules, characters, etc.
I didn't see the ONE D&D playtesting here,
but I did watch a ton of YT vids on it from various creators, and they did a great job (imo again) of showing all the excellent things coming with ONE D&D.
im staying subbed. I think good things are coming and that D&D Beyond will adapt accordingly.
Looks like it is time to bring out the pitchforks again friends.