Just one question, if WOTC isn't lying (which it is) about the leaked OGL being a draft version, then WHY were companies being told to sign a draft document, why did Kickstarter negotiate a reduced royalty payment on a draft document?
The simple fact is you do not get companies to sign a legal binding financial agreement on a draft document!
I cannot cancel my subscription as I never had one in the first place, I just Spelljammer on DND beyond to allow me to convert it to a Fantasy Grounds Savage Worlds campaign more easy than if I had bought the book.
Check out Treantmonk's new video about this. He explains it actually was a draft, even Gizmodo states it was a draft
Not Cancelling. What was leaked was a potential revised OGL not a finalized one. I'll wait to see the final one then decide if i'll still support them. People are so quick to cancel anything over even imaginary offences. What does one do when they're done canceling everything? going to be a pretty lonely world.
IF that was true I would agree with you, but it is false. Companies/publishers have quite literally negotiated and signed this OGL already. It was all done under NDA's, but thankfully some companies refused to sign the NDA's and spoke out about it (see Kickstarter negotiations as an example).
This was no draft, it was a real, published document that 3rd party publishers were asked to sign. The reversal that it was a draft came after 40,000 people canceled their subscriptions.
Not saying you should cancel, but you should be grateful for the people that did, because its the ONLY reason the original OGL isn't official.
Gizmodo stated it was a draft though, just because youtubers say it wasn't doesn't make it true.
The original leak was a draft. That has been established already. Some try to rewrite history and others tend to believe the claims that it wasn't...but it was.
The majority (not all) of the haters have something to gain by being anti-WotC. Many are loyal to companies that produce competing content, so all the customers they get to leave WotC might potentially come to them. So let's not pretend they are victims. They are business people, just like WotC.
WotC are creators too...trying to protect their work, just like everyone else is. That is getting lost in all of this.
Let's assume that the current version is the final version (which it is not), then if WotC ever tries to backstab the community, then they will face the consequences of alienating everyone completely. That is your check and balance.
There is nothing wrong with playing other systems. Plenty did it before this mess. If you want to move on, then do so. But...the truth is, you don't, regardless of what you voted in this poll. Otherwise, you would not be here raising a fuss.
I spent money here, and I'm not going to choose to have wasted that money.
In the end, everything will be worked out, and partly because of everyone raising a fuss. So I won't say they don't matter. But let's at least be honest about things. This is other companies versus one big company.
There is so much wrong here so I'm going to take it piece by piece, but know I mean no personal offense nor am I attacking you, its just my take.
The original leak was a draft. That has been established already. Some try to rewrite history and others tend to believe the claims that it wasn't...but it was.
First and this is important if you're negotiating a contract, its a version of that contract. The term draft makes it sound like it was some sort of official test or as Wizard put it, "to gauge reaction", which is nonsense. A draft is something you show to someone and say "what do you think", a contract is something you negotiate and try to get signed (which is what happened), sure it can still change during the negotiation but that is not a draft. I'm not re-writing history, this is an undisputed, objective fact. It's how it went down.. playing with words like "draft" is PR nonsense Wizards of the Coast came up with after they got exposed trying to pass some total BS to the community. It's a spin, it's not truth. Truth is that they wrote an OGL and tried to get people to sign it.
The majority (not all) of the haters have something to gain by being anti-WotC. Many are loyal to companies that produce competing content, so all the customers they get to leave WotC might potentially come to them. So let's not pretend they are victims. They are business people, just like WotC.
People aren't haters, most people who have worked as 3rd party creators understand what the OGL says which is, in short.... Anything made under even the latest "draft" of the OGL says in no uncertain terms, WE OWN YOUR CONTENT. That is it, that is what the contract says. Sure you can sue Wizards of the Coast to get some money if you can prove in court they used your content, but how many 3rd party publishers do you think can afford a lawyer? And even if you win in court you get a cash settlement, your content still belongs to them, you can't get it back and they can sue you if you continue to publish content that is similar to theirs. That is the crazy part about how this OGL works. They can steal your stuff and sue you if you use the stuff they stole from you. These people aren't haters, these are 3rd party publishers who understand how licensing contracts work and the community is supporting them. No one wants to see D&D or Wizards of the Coast fail, what people want is a fair deal.
WotC are creators too...trying to protect their work, just like everyone else is. That is getting lost in all of this.
From what? The OGL has been in place for 23 years! Has anyone stolen anything from Wizards of the Coast? 3rd party publishers and this community made D&D the most popular RPG in the market and Wizards of the Coast multimillionaires. What and who exactly are they afraid of? What is this fear based on?
Besides, Wizards of the Coast doesn't own D&D, we, the community do.
Let's assume that the current version is the final version (which it is not), then if WotC ever tries to backstab the community, then they will face the consequences of alienating everyone completely. That is your check and balance.
True, except that the checks and balances are being pre-emptively implemented. They are alienating the community now, by trying to implement this farse, the community is responding and this community I believe will make them pay for trying. So, your not wrong, its just that no one wants to wait until after, they are going to hit them before.
There is nothing wrong with playing other systems. Plenty did it before this mess. If you want to move on, then do so. But...the truth is, you don't, regardless of what you voted in this poll. Otherwise, you would not be here raising a fuss.
Of course the community doesn't want to move on, D&D is our game, we want to protect it and watch it grow. You keep giving undeserved credit to Wizards of the Coast... they have done nothing. WE, the community have made D&D the most popular game in the world.. through our efforts, our demands, our desires, our direction. Their right to publish D&D is a privilege that can be taken away. TSR mismanaged D&D with greed and D&D was the most popular RPG back then too and the community ended that reign in the same manner they created it, by voting with their wallets. Wizards of the Coast is on thin ice, don't underestimate the communities resolve. When Wizards put out 4e, this community made Pathfinder the most popular RPG in the market and if WotC continues with this nonsense, this community will do it again.
Not Cancelling. What was leaked was a potential revised OGL not a finalized one. I'll wait to see the final one then decide if i'll still support them. People are so quick to cancel anything over even imaginary offences. What does one do when they're done canceling everything? going to be a pretty lonely world.
IF that was true I would agree with you, but it is false. Companies/publishers have quite literally negotiated and signed this OGL already. It was all done under NDA's, but thankfully some companies refused to sign the NDA's and spoke out about it (see Kickstarter negotiations as an example).
This was no draft, it was a real, published document that 3rd party publishers were asked to sign. The reversal that it was a draft came after 40,000 people canceled their subscriptions.
Not saying you should cancel, but you should be grateful for the people that did, because its the ONLY reason the original OGL isn't official.
That's the big lie. No one has actually signed the OGL yet. Everyone was negotiating. Even kickstarter did not sign a finalized deal. The negotiated, yes, but did not put anything in writing yet.
That first OGL was sent out as a preliminary gauge to reactions. Yes, this turned out to be much more effort than expected for WotC, but in the end, so long as the final version is good, it doesn't really matter.
To that end, the cancellations are serving a purpose...they are motivating WotC to get it right...but the competition doesn't want things to be made right...because they are reaping hte benefits of people leaving WotC. They are driven by greed as well.
Considering the competition is scads of small third party players I find it hard to make the claim they are all driven by greed. It's far easier to predict the behaviors and goals of a public corporation than a guy who has a full-time job and tries to publish some game stuff on the side.
Considering the competition is scads of small third party players I find it hard to make the claim they are all driven by greed. It's far easier to predict the behaviors and goals of a public corporation than a guy who has a full-time job and tries to publish some game stuff on the side.
Well they are all driven by an intent to earn money. And to the extent they see this as detrimental to that, regardless of how it is or is not justified, there is reason for bias. Plus it is very common for any business to assume they have a right to be in business, regardless of the facts. This applies to complaints not just about copyrights but also all fees and costs government or any supplier levies.
That is normal business mentality and if anything is more common in small business owners than larger corporations.
This does not mean they are always wrong in feeling that way or even wrong in this specific case, just that it is a normal mindset.
You are really trying way too hard. When I see someone trot out the word "bias" the way you just did it seems to be a method of attempting to confuse issues. You like to use words like "everyone" and "normal" and apply a broad brush to avoid complexity and nuance. Third party publishers in RPGs are often very talented people who, if their only motive was money, would find a much better risk/reward dynamic doing many other things. Third party publishers tend to be gamers, unlike Hasbro executives. They also aren't publicly traded companies. Third party publishers are much more likely to be emotionally invested in the hobby. So, please, stop trying so hard to over-simplify things and to pretend that Hasbro/WoTC isn't an outlier in the gaming community. It is different from all the others and there is a great diversity among third party publishers in terms of their goals. Paizo is clearly trying to make a long-lasting big business out of gaming. The guys who have 10 products that people can download online may be more interested in showing off their accomplishments and making their "mark" on gaming, hoping that it might help them earn some "mad money" if they are lucky but, otherwise, simply happy to be known by some for publishing some game stuff.
Already did, the fact that they've now released a "survey" is even more annoying. The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers. My friends and I are starting a Numanera campaign, and my current campaign is switching to pen and paper. I already bought the sourcebooks so we don't need anything else.
Already did, the fact that they've now released a "survey" is even more annoying. The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers. My friends and I are starting a Numanera campaign, and my current campaign is switching to pen and paper. I already bought the sourcebooks so we don't need anything else.
The original OGL is far, far less complex than the disclosures and terms an "average joe" signs when they get a vehicle or home loan.
Maybe not everyone understands the full implications of every clause, but its incredibly dismissive to imply that most people can't understand enough to have an opinion.
The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers
That's what WOTC was doing, up until the Gizmodo leak
Then a few YouTubers and their audiences decided that they were, in fact, experts on licensing agreements and were fully qualified to pitch a fit
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm not canceling. Yet. We'll see what the final doc looks like.
At the end of the day, I think the best thing Wizards could do is fix the issues the doc and then open DnDBeyond to third party content (or at least some third party content). I think that would go a LONG ways towards mending fences with the content community.
The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers
That's what WOTC was doing, up until the Gizmodo leak
Then a few YouTubers and their audiences decided that they were, in fact, experts on licensing agreements and were fully qualified to pitch a fit
Are you talking about the YouTubers that included lawyers and the architect of the present OGL? Because they "pitched a fit."
The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers
That's what WOTC was doing, up until the Gizmodo leak
Then a few YouTubers and their audiences decided that they were, in fact, experts on licensing agreements and were fully qualified to pitch a fit
Are you talking about the YouTubers that included lawyers and the architect of the present OGL? Because they "pitched a fit."
Yep, literally no one more qualified than that.
The implication that people overreacted on the OGL situation is ridiculous. People's livelihoods and careers were threatened, and a lot of creators are going to have to deal with a lot of risk and uncertainty if they choose to go forward under any circumstances.
I know this is a real hot take right now, but I'll cancel when and if something bad actually happens. I've put enough time into this game and these tools that I'm not going to do anything rash. I already feel pretty justified in this position with the walking back they've done. Give them the feedback they're asking for and help us keep the game open and free.
I know this is a real hot take right now, but I'll cancel when and if something bad actually happens. I've put enough time into this game and these tools that I'm not going to do anything rash. I already feel pretty justified in this position with the walking back they've done. Give them the feedback they're asking for and help us keep the game open and free.
I agree. But I am definitely thankful for all those who did cancel their subscriptions. They're the ones that made Wizards listen. I do hope they find their way back some day if Wizards is deserving. I know a lot of them are gone for good, but while Wizards is a corporation whose goal is to make money, I believe most of the workers are good people doing the best they can.
I'm still ready to cancel my subscription if the "final" OGL isn't sufficient, but I hope it doesn't come to that.
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Check out Treantmonk's new video about this. He explains it actually was a draft, even Gizmodo states it was a draft
Gizmodo stated it was a draft though, just because youtubers say it wasn't doesn't make it true.
There is so much wrong here so I'm going to take it piece by piece, but know I mean no personal offense nor am I attacking you, its just my take.
First and this is important if you're negotiating a contract, its a version of that contract. The term draft makes it sound like it was some sort of official test or as Wizard put it, "to gauge reaction", which is nonsense. A draft is something you show to someone and say "what do you think", a contract is something you negotiate and try to get signed (which is what happened), sure it can still change during the negotiation but that is not a draft. I'm not re-writing history, this is an undisputed, objective fact. It's how it went down.. playing with words like "draft" is PR nonsense Wizards of the Coast came up with after they got exposed trying to pass some total BS to the community. It's a spin, it's not truth. Truth is that they wrote an OGL and tried to get people to sign it.
People aren't haters, most people who have worked as 3rd party creators understand what the OGL says which is, in short.... Anything made under even the latest "draft" of the OGL says in no uncertain terms, WE OWN YOUR CONTENT. That is it, that is what the contract says. Sure you can sue Wizards of the Coast to get some money if you can prove in court they used your content, but how many 3rd party publishers do you think can afford a lawyer? And even if you win in court you get a cash settlement, your content still belongs to them, you can't get it back and they can sue you if you continue to publish content that is similar to theirs. That is the crazy part about how this OGL works. They can steal your stuff and sue you if you use the stuff they stole from you. These people aren't haters, these are 3rd party publishers who understand how licensing contracts work and the community is supporting them. No one wants to see D&D or Wizards of the Coast fail, what people want is a fair deal.
From what? The OGL has been in place for 23 years! Has anyone stolen anything from Wizards of the Coast? 3rd party publishers and this community made D&D the most popular RPG in the market and Wizards of the Coast multimillionaires. What and who exactly are they afraid of? What is this fear based on?
Besides, Wizards of the Coast doesn't own D&D, we, the community do.
True, except that the checks and balances are being pre-emptively implemented. They are alienating the community now, by trying to implement this farse, the community is responding and this community I believe will make them pay for trying. So, your not wrong, its just that no one wants to wait until after, they are going to hit them before.
Of course the community doesn't want to move on, D&D is our game, we want to protect it and watch it grow. You keep giving undeserved credit to Wizards of the Coast... they have done nothing. WE, the community have made D&D the most popular game in the world.. through our efforts, our demands, our desires, our direction. Their right to publish D&D is a privilege that can be taken away. TSR mismanaged D&D with greed and D&D was the most popular RPG back then too and the community ended that reign in the same manner they created it, by voting with their wallets. Wizards of the Coast is on thin ice, don't underestimate the communities resolve. When Wizards put out 4e, this community made Pathfinder the most popular RPG in the market and if WotC continues with this nonsense, this community will do it again.
Gizmodo came out and said it was a draft. It was in the article itself and later confirmed on Twitter by the journalist.
https://twitter.com/lincodega/status/1616069200082276353?s=20&t=i0StbI0gnhXTRlmd2GIZQw
Considering the competition is scads of small third party players I find it hard to make the claim they are all driven by greed. It's far easier to predict the behaviors and goals of a public corporation than a guy who has a full-time job and tries to publish some game stuff on the side.
Never planned on it, so no. :)
Check out my publication on DMs Guild: https://www.dmsguild.com/browse.php?author=Tawmis%20Logue
Check out my comedy web series - Neverending Nights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wr4-u9-zw0&list=PLbRG7dzFI-u3EJd0usasgDrrFO3mZ1lOZ
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You are really trying way too hard. When I see someone trot out the word "bias" the way you just did it seems to be a method of attempting to confuse issues. You like to use words like "everyone" and "normal" and apply a broad brush to avoid complexity and nuance. Third party publishers in RPGs are often very talented people who, if their only motive was money, would find a much better risk/reward dynamic doing many other things. Third party publishers tend to be gamers, unlike Hasbro executives. They also aren't publicly traded companies. Third party publishers are much more likely to be emotionally invested in the hobby. So, please, stop trying so hard to over-simplify things and to pretend that Hasbro/WoTC isn't an outlier in the gaming community. It is different from all the others and there is a great diversity among third party publishers in terms of their goals. Paizo is clearly trying to make a long-lasting big business out of gaming. The guys who have 10 products that people can download online may be more interested in showing off their accomplishments and making their "mark" on gaming, hoping that it might help them earn some "mad money" if they are lucky but, otherwise, simply happy to be known by some for publishing some game stuff.
Already did, the fact that they've now released a "survey" is even more annoying. The average joe doesn't understand the complex language of a licensing agreement, just have regular meetings with actual businesses and game developers. My friends and I are starting a Numanera campaign, and my current campaign is switching to pen and paper. I already bought the sourcebooks so we don't need anything else.
The original OGL is far, far less complex than the disclosures and terms an "average joe" signs when they get a vehicle or home loan.
Maybe not everyone understands the full implications of every clause, but its incredibly dismissive to imply that most people can't understand enough to have an opinion.
That's what WOTC was doing, up until the Gizmodo leak
Then a few YouTubers and their audiences decided that they were, in fact, experts on licensing agreements and were fully qualified to pitch a fit
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm not canceling. Yet. We'll see what the final doc looks like.
At the end of the day, I think the best thing Wizards could do is fix the issues the doc and then open DnDBeyond to third party content (or at least some third party content). I think that would go a LONG ways towards mending fences with the content community.
Are you talking about the YouTubers that included lawyers and the architect of the present OGL? Because they "pitched a fit."
Yep, literally no one more qualified than that.
The implication that people overreacted on the OGL situation is ridiculous. People's livelihoods and careers were threatened, and a lot of creators are going to have to deal with a lot of risk and uncertainty if they choose to go forward under any circumstances.
I know this is a real hot take right now, but I'll cancel when and if something bad actually happens. I've put enough time into this game and these tools that I'm not going to do anything rash. I already feel pretty justified in this position with the walking back they've done. Give them the feedback they're asking for and help us keep the game open and free.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I agree. But I am definitely thankful for all those who did cancel their subscriptions. They're the ones that made Wizards listen. I do hope they find their way back some day if Wizards is deserving. I know a lot of them are gone for good, but while Wizards is a corporation whose goal is to make money, I believe most of the workers are good people doing the best they can.
I'm still ready to cancel my subscription if the "final" OGL isn't sufficient, but I hope it doesn't come to that.