Wizards of the Coast wants to regain customer goodwill. They literally took a blowtorch to their brand name and everything their company has accomplished for decades.
The only way to actually begin to return from that is to fire leadership.
Obviously Cynthia Williams needs to go immediately. Tim Fields should be let go as well.
The company needs to flat out admit that the direction the leadership took the company in the last year was destructive and offensive. The only way they can recover their brand is to get rid of those that brought this nightmare on.
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
I'll wait six months to see where things are with WOTC.
As for c-suite and shake ups, well Alta Fox Financial Management, the ones who started the charge last summer to pull Wizards from Hasbro in a spinoff, went nuclear Wednesday on Hasbro, and got other hedge funds rumbling on what they were doing with the Wizard Brand. Gotta remember this is ****-up #2 under Cocks's leadership at Hasbro, the first being the MTG debacle. Alta Fox isn't the only ones wanting a change up again or a split, but they are leading the charge. One day after their rant they dropped the 1.2 stuff like a bad habit.
Hasbro c-suite didn't care about what we or third party support wanted. But what did they do the moment a hedge fund with $200,000,000 in investment threatened to pull and start a cascade of selling off with other firms? Namely one CNBC, Wallstreet Journal, and Motley Fool report on? They back down the next morning. The hedge funds looked at Hasbro trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and watched the consumers that make that gold. Hedge Funds want consistent growth stock, they are not flash in the pan investment with high risk. So while we may be okay, the investors are probably not.
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
That’s not how accountability works. I want to be clear that I’m not demanding anybody be fired, but if Hasbro do nothing then not only could something as obscene as this debacle happen again, it means that there is no personal disincentive for an exec against upturning an entire industry in the name of corporate greed. Remember that livelihoods have been damaged and businesses have had to shut down or reorganise suddenly as a direct result of this. Who knows what the total financial damage is to anyone in the industry who’s not the size of Paizo or Kobold Press.
The answer is not “stop being mad at WotC because they’ve stopped the horrible thing they were doing”. Those responsible need to be held to account. That is how trust is repaired.
Whether the current WotC Managemet team stay is up to the Hasbro (and Hasbro investors). What they have done is demonstrated that they are severely out of touch with what their fans/customers actually want and that is probably one of the worst mistakes you can make in Business.
Anyone who doesn't think there's a whole lot of very pointed questions being asked by, and of, the Wotsee exec team right now is batty. We don't need to continue holding our breath like spoiled children on the issue. Remember - we went to war on this to protect people's livelihoods. Demanding that dozens of people lose their jobs and be barred from working anywhere ever again so they can't feed themselves or their families is kind of a shit thing to do even if you hate what they did. I hate what a lot of people on these forums do, yet I don't recall ever calling for someone to become a homeless bum to make up for it.
Trust that the exec team is gonna lose pay and privileges over this, they'll be answering to a board of directors or a gaggle of shareholders. They may end up fired after all, but even if they retain their positions they've been given a bloody nose and a fat lip they'll remember for years. And Cao's whole D&D-as-gacha-game plan is completely and entirely sunk forever for 5e, he's out of commission for a couple of years at the least.
Let it go. Take the W and get back to playing, rather than demanding people literally die for their ****ups.
Let it go. Take the W and get back to playing, rather than demanding people literally die for their ****ups.
Who's demanding that anyone needs to die? Stop disparaging people voicing their desire for management to be held responsible as blood-baying maniacs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect accountability. I even stressed that I'm NOT demanding people be fired, as that's clearly not up to anybody but Hasbro / WotC, and there are other ways to hold someone accountable - financial penalties, reassignment to another role in the business, a change of contract (wouldn't that be ironic), etc. I know others are asking for firings, which I understand even if I don't entirely share that stance.
Pease take a step back and stop assuming the worst possible take on everyone you disagree with.
What makes you think that they wouldn't be able to feed their families. Do you think a C-suite exec can't get a job in a less prestigious position? Do you think that they don't have savings and golden parachutes? Are you seriously worried about the livelihood of people that are as grossly overpaid as the WotC exec team? They make as much as execs at much larger companies. They will be fine.
& what makes you think that they won't try this or something just as shady in the future? We already know that they own anything you post on their site, so it's not like they suddenly turned over a new leaf. They just got bullied into submission. That doesn't change their attitude towards customers nor the culture at the top.
Excising the worst of them would be fantastic, but I doubt even that will restore the trust for some. As it is, I may try out their new vtt as I'd originally planned, but I'm not going to trust this company any time soon.
I think firing them would be counterproductive. Right now, the people in charge understand quite well there are some red lines they can’t cross. New execs could come on and say, “it was a good idea with bad execution. Let’s try it my way. Then it will work.” And we’re back here again. Bring in a new team, and we could very well be in a position where the new people need to be taught this same lesson.
Beyond that, damn, are you all perfect? Want to get fired any time you mess up at work? People should be allowed to make mistakes, it’s how you grow. If the management team learns from those mistakes the game could end up with folks who can competently manage the game in a way that’s fun for us and makes money for them and everyone is happy. If they keep screwing up, that’s a different story. But no one is perfect.
Remember - we went to war on this to protect people's livelihoods.
We? I seem to recall post after post from you arguing against boycotts and unsubscribes and just about every other proposed negative reaction to what WOTC was doing. Weren't you even advocating that it is WOTC's IP to do with what they want?
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
I'll wait six months to see where things are with WOTC.
As for c-suite and shake ups, well Alta Fox Financial Management, the ones who started the charge last summer to pull Wizards from Hasbro in a spinoff, went nuclear Wednesday on Hasbro, and got other hedge funds rumbling on what they were doing with the Wizard Brand. Gotta remember this is ****-up #2 under Cocks's leadership at Hasbro, the first being the MTG debacle. Alta Fox isn't the only ones wanting a change up again or a split, but they are leading the charge. One day after their rant they dropped the 1.2 stuff like a bad habit.
Hasbro c-suite didn't care about what we or third party support wanted. But what did they do the moment a hedge fund with $200,000,000 in investment threatened to pull and start a cascade of selling off with other firms? Namely one CNBC, Wallstreet Journal, and Motley Fool report on? They back down the next morning. The hedge funds looked at Hasbro trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and watched the consumers that make that gold. Hedge Funds want consistent growth stock, they are not flash in the pan investment with high risk. So while we may be okay, the investors are probably not.
Yep, I think lots of people will look at WotC's capitulation and think that the community did that - but the reality is more like, the community backlash was threatening to kill off interest in the IP, which would make it a bad investment, and the few people who actually have power were noticing. So I suppose the community did do it, in a way, but they didn't make Wizards change their minds - the people who wanted to put the horrific 1.1 OGL forward still have their jobs and are still making the choices at WotC, and our outcry about it didn't make their heart grow three times it's size, they had investors and higher-ups above them tell them to stop and do a 180 right friggin' now. Between the community backlash and Paizo managing to sell eight months worth of books in the span of a week or two, the writing was on the wall for anyone who cared to see it. I just don't think Wizards was caring to see it, someone with more power than them made them change course and that's it.
So I get why some people are still very reluctant to celebrate, the people who helmed these bad choices are still in power. The potential for them to make horribly bad choices and stick with them in spite of so much pushback is alarming in and of itself, and doesn't show good leadership qualities - if I had investments in Hasbro I'd be rethinking them right now for sure, because the leaders at WotC were put there with active thought about who could run the brand well and be passionate about it. If THIS is their attempt at good, passionate management that understands D&D... yikes man. Woof. IDK if the next attempt will be any better y'know? We'll see I guess.
Wizards of the Coast wants to regain customer goodwill. They literally took a blowtorch to their brand name and everything their company has accomplished for decades.
The only way to actually begin to return from that is to fire leadership.
Obviously Cynthia Williams needs to go immediately. Tim Fields should be let go as well.
The company needs to flat out admit that the direction the leadership took the company in the last year was destructive and offensive. The only way they can recover their brand is to get rid of those that brought this nightmare on.
If we are demanding accountability then should that accountability not be on both sides? What should we demand of those in the fanbase or Content Creators who provided misinformation (intentional or not)?
I’m sorry, I mean this with all due respect, but the only one giving a ‘howling rant’ here is you...
Ummm, what? The amount of people I've seen here with #opendnd attached to their names accusing people of being shills, white knights, sycophants, and enemies of dnd, for voicing even the slightest bit of disagreement, has been literally nonstop for weeks.
I am going to ask that all users remain respectful to each other, even when they disagree. Resorting to calling each other names or other direct attacks on one another is not appropriate.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat On - Mod Hat Off
I’m sorry, I mean this with all due respect, but the only one giving a ‘howling rant’ here is you...
Ummm, what? The amount of people I've seen here with #opendnd attached to their names accusing people of being shills, white knights, sycophants, and enemies of dnd, for voicing even the slightest bit of disagreement, has been literally nonstop for weeks.
Slightest? You had people using real world issues people suffer through as a bludgeon and shield to defend a long standing license and damage a brand/community that many supported. Namely for some high risk short term gains, and that threatened the creator community with a "sign or die" style "draft". Yeah people were upset, but to say some of the disagreements were "just love taps baby", is pretty dishonest.
There were over reactions to each other, yeah, but one side was right. Let's not get into a "both sides" fallacy.
There were over reactions to each other, yeah, but one side was right. Let's not get into a "both sides" fallacy.
WotC, yes? They were just trying to protect their IP and make money, like companies are supposed to. When they saw their actions may not be profitable afterall they backed down. To protect their IPs and profits. Throughout the whole process WotC acted exactly like. company should - in it's own best interest.
There were over reactions to each other, yeah, but one side was right. Let's not get into a "both sides" fallacy.
WotC, yes? They were just trying to protect their IP and make money, like companies are supposed to. When they saw their actions may not be profitable afterall they backed down. To protect their IPs and profits. Throughout the whole process WotC acted exactly like. company should - in it's own best interest.
In the end it wasn't and this is the second time they've done something high risk that damaged the brand and revenue. Hasbro and WotC upper echelons were in the wrong, legally, morally, and fiscally. A company is >not< required by law to focus on maximizing profits at high risk, that's a common misunderstanding of business. In fact if done by illegal means it can sink a company. A company is suppose to produce goods and services, maintain the value of the brand/IP's, and to investors provide a good stable investment with dividends and/or growth.
This is why Cocks is in hot water right now with the investors, they pushed for this reversal because they know that this business is built around a vibrant and active community that buy goods and services with low upkeep cost, thus 22% of revenue but 72% of profit. They also didn't protect the brand through the attempted to lock it down, instead damaging the brand name and IP attached among the primary driving force of the community.
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
I, personally - was never "mad".
Bottom line is I want to play a good game and I will vote with my money which games qualify as good for me. 5e has always been a situation of "that's what other people are playing so I guess I will." - for me. I Never bought 5e because I thought it was the best product - it's just what the vast majority were playing.
WOTC in the past month demonstrably was going to be a game that I would not want to spend any money on.
When WOTC "gave up" - for me - they moved from the "AW HELL NAH" category into once again the "We will see what comes out in 2024' category. But since I only ever tolerated 5e to begin with , I will keep my ears to the wind and see where the player base is. If I can only find games in 5e - well, I still have the 5e books I had last month. If I can find games in other systems, I will see how those games are.
None of this is done in anger - it's done completely logically that I want to spend my money on the game material that I will enjoy most with others.
There were over reactions to each other, yeah, but one side was right. Let's not get into a "both sides" fallacy.
WotC, yes? They were just trying to protect their IP and make money, like companies are supposed to. When they saw their actions may not be profitable afterall they backed down. To protect their IPs and profits. Throughout the whole process WotC acted exactly like. company should - in it's own best interest.
In the end it wasn't and this is the second time they've done something high risk that damaged the brand and revenue. Hasbro and WotC upper echelons were in the wrong, legally, morally, and fiscally. A company is >not< required by law to focus on maximizing profits at high risk, that's a common misunderstanding of business. In fact if done by illegal means it can sink a company. A company is suppose to produce goods and services, maintain the value of the brand/IP's, and to investors provide a good stable investment with dividends and/or growth.
This is why Cocks is in hot water right now with the investors, they pushed for this reversal because they know that this business is built around a vibrant and active community that buy goods and services with low upkeep cost, thus 22% of revenue but 72% of profit. They also didn't protect the brand through the attempted to lock it down, instead damaging the brand name and IP attached among the primary driving force of the community.
I'm not talking legally, just in the general sense - companies goals are to make profit. They tried something, it didn't work, so they stepped back and undid it. They'll try something else, or try again when they think it might work better... But the company is acting how a company acts, trying to profit. It would be nice if companies were happy staying small mom & pop shops that were all about being good neighbors and doing right by their customers but that kind of socialism never works out, no matter how much we may want it to. Not in the long run, anyway.
As for morally... I'm pretty sure we have different morals and I doubt the mods want us debating them here, so can we just leave that out? Thanks.
Investors being upset is also part of how the system works. Their being upset about the impact this had on profits and brand identity if more proof that everything is working like it should.
Ummm, what? The amount of people I've seen here with #opendnd attached to their names accusing people of being shills, white knights, sycophants, and enemies of dnd, for voicing even the slightest bit of disagreement, has been literally nonstop for weeks.
I do not believe this is accurate and is an exageration. Believe me when I tell you that anything remotely resembling anything you are describing (if flagged) results in the offender getting a little message and a warning from a moderator and it's impossible to be "literally nonstop for weeks" - because the moderators do give suspensions for such behavior if repeated.
So when I see your post - without drama and without any ill intent - I say you are just factually wrong.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Wizards of the Coast wants to regain customer goodwill. They literally took a blowtorch to their brand name and everything their company has accomplished for decades.
The only way to actually begin to return from that is to fire leadership.
Obviously Cynthia Williams needs to go immediately. Tim Fields should be let go as well.
The company needs to flat out admit that the direction the leadership took the company in the last year was destructive and offensive. The only way they can recover their brand is to get rid of those that brought this nightmare on.
We won. We got everything we wanted. Wotc got nothing. So honestly, the whole "I'm still going to be mad about this" is getting a bit silly. Just go play some games or something.
I'll wait six months to see where things are with WOTC.
As for c-suite and shake ups, well Alta Fox Financial Management, the ones who started the charge last summer to pull Wizards from Hasbro in a spinoff, went nuclear Wednesday on Hasbro, and got other hedge funds rumbling on what they were doing with the Wizard Brand. Gotta remember this is ****-up #2 under Cocks's leadership at Hasbro, the first being the MTG debacle. Alta Fox isn't the only ones wanting a change up again or a split, but they are leading the charge. One day after their rant they dropped the 1.2 stuff like a bad habit.
Hasbro c-suite didn't care about what we or third party support wanted. But what did they do the moment a hedge fund with $200,000,000 in investment threatened to pull and start a cascade of selling off with other firms? Namely one CNBC, Wallstreet Journal, and Motley Fool report on? They back down the next morning. The hedge funds looked at Hasbro trying to kill the goose that laid the golden egg, and watched the consumers that make that gold. Hedge Funds want consistent growth stock, they are not flash in the pan investment with high risk. So while we may be okay, the investors are probably not.
That’s not how accountability works. I want to be clear that I’m not demanding anybody be fired, but if Hasbro do nothing then not only could something as obscene as this debacle happen again, it means that there is no personal disincentive for an exec against upturning an entire industry in the name of corporate greed. Remember that livelihoods have been damaged and businesses have had to shut down or reorganise suddenly as a direct result of this. Who knows what the total financial damage is to anyone in the industry who’s not the size of Paizo or Kobold Press.
The answer is not “stop being mad at WotC because they’ve stopped the horrible thing they were doing”. Those responsible need to be held to account. That is how trust is repaired.
Whether the current WotC Managemet team stay is up to the Hasbro (and Hasbro investors). What they have done is demonstrated that they are severely out of touch with what their fans/customers actually want and that is probably one of the worst mistakes you can make in Business.
Anyone who doesn't think there's a whole lot of very pointed questions being asked by, and of, the Wotsee exec team right now is batty. We don't need to continue holding our breath like spoiled children on the issue. Remember - we went to war on this to protect people's livelihoods. Demanding that dozens of people lose their jobs and be barred from working anywhere ever again so they can't feed themselves or their families is kind of a shit thing to do even if you hate what they did. I hate what a lot of people on these forums do, yet I don't recall ever calling for someone to become a homeless bum to make up for it.
Trust that the exec team is gonna lose pay and privileges over this, they'll be answering to a board of directors or a gaggle of shareholders. They may end up fired after all, but even if they retain their positions they've been given a bloody nose and a fat lip they'll remember for years. And Cao's whole D&D-as-gacha-game plan is completely and entirely sunk forever for 5e, he's out of commission for a couple of years at the least.
Let it go. Take the W and get back to playing, rather than demanding people literally die for their ****ups.
Please do not contact or message me.
Who's demanding that anyone needs to die? Stop disparaging people voicing their desire for management to be held responsible as blood-baying maniacs. It's perfectly reasonable to expect accountability. I even stressed that I'm NOT demanding people be fired, as that's clearly not up to anybody but Hasbro / WotC, and there are other ways to hold someone accountable - financial penalties, reassignment to another role in the business, a change of contract (wouldn't that be ironic), etc. I know others are asking for firings, which I understand even if I don't entirely share that stance.
Pease take a step back and stop assuming the worst possible take on everyone you disagree with.
What makes you think that they wouldn't be able to feed their families. Do you think a C-suite exec can't get a job in a less prestigious position? Do you think that they don't have savings and golden parachutes? Are you seriously worried about the livelihood of people that are as grossly overpaid as the WotC exec team? They make as much as execs at much larger companies. They will be fine.
& what makes you think that they won't try this or something just as shady in the future? We already know that they own anything you post on their site, so it's not like they suddenly turned over a new leaf. They just got bullied into submission. That doesn't change their attitude towards customers nor the culture at the top.
Excising the worst of them would be fantastic, but I doubt even that will restore the trust for some. As it is, I may try out their new vtt as I'd originally planned, but I'm not going to trust this company any time soon.
I think firing them would be counterproductive. Right now, the people in charge understand quite well there are some red lines they can’t cross. New execs could come on and say, “it was a good idea with bad execution. Let’s try it my way. Then it will work.” And we’re back here again.
Bring in a new team, and we could very well be in a position where the new people need to be taught this same lesson.
Beyond that, damn, are you all perfect? Want to get fired any time you mess up at work? People should be allowed to make mistakes, it’s how you grow. If the management team learns from those mistakes the game could end up with folks who can competently manage the game in a way that’s fun for us and makes money for them and everyone is happy. If they keep screwing up, that’s a different story. But no one is perfect.
We? I seem to recall post after post from you arguing against boycotts and unsubscribes and just about every other proposed negative reaction to what WOTC was doing. Weren't you even advocating that it is WOTC's IP to do with what they want?
Yep, I think lots of people will look at WotC's capitulation and think that the community did that - but the reality is more like, the community backlash was threatening to kill off interest in the IP, which would make it a bad investment, and the few people who actually have power were noticing. So I suppose the community did do it, in a way, but they didn't make Wizards change their minds - the people who wanted to put the horrific 1.1 OGL forward still have their jobs and are still making the choices at WotC, and our outcry about it didn't make their heart grow three times it's size, they had investors and higher-ups above them tell them to stop and do a 180 right friggin' now. Between the community backlash and Paizo managing to sell eight months worth of books in the span of a week or two, the writing was on the wall for anyone who cared to see it. I just don't think Wizards was caring to see it, someone with more power than them made them change course and that's it.
So I get why some people are still very reluctant to celebrate, the people who helmed these bad choices are still in power. The potential for them to make horribly bad choices and stick with them in spite of so much pushback is alarming in and of itself, and doesn't show good leadership qualities - if I had investments in Hasbro I'd be rethinking them right now for sure, because the leaders at WotC were put there with active thought about who could run the brand well and be passionate about it. If THIS is their attempt at good, passionate management that understands D&D... yikes man. Woof. IDK if the next attempt will be any better y'know? We'll see I guess.
If we are demanding accountability then should that accountability not be on both sides? What should we demand of those in the fanbase or Content Creators who provided misinformation (intentional or not)?
Ummm, what? The amount of people I've seen here with #opendnd attached to their names accusing people of being shills, white knights, sycophants, and enemies of dnd, for voicing even the slightest bit of disagreement, has been literally nonstop for weeks.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
ModeratorI am going to ask that all users remain respectful to each other, even when they disagree. Resorting to calling each other names or other direct attacks on one another is not appropriate.
Homebrew Rules || Homebrew FAQ || Snippet Codes || Tooltips
DDB Guides & FAQs, Class Guides, Character Builds, Game Guides, Useful Websites, and WOTC Resources
Slightest? You had people using real world issues people suffer through as a bludgeon and shield to defend a long standing license and damage a brand/community that many supported. Namely for some high risk short term gains, and that threatened the creator community with a "sign or die" style "draft". Yeah people were upset, but to say some of the disagreements were "just love taps baby", is pretty dishonest.
There were over reactions to each other, yeah, but one side was right. Let's not get into a "both sides" fallacy.
WotC, yes? They were just trying to protect their IP and make money, like companies are supposed to. When they saw their actions may not be profitable afterall they backed down. To protect their IPs and profits. Throughout the whole process WotC acted exactly like. company should - in it's own best interest.
In the end it wasn't and this is the second time they've done something high risk that damaged the brand and revenue. Hasbro and WotC upper echelons were in the wrong, legally, morally, and fiscally. A company is >not< required by law to focus on maximizing profits at high risk, that's a common misunderstanding of business. In fact if done by illegal means it can sink a company. A company is suppose to produce goods and services, maintain the value of the brand/IP's, and to investors provide a good stable investment with dividends and/or growth.
This is why Cocks is in hot water right now with the investors, they pushed for this reversal because they know that this business is built around a vibrant and active community that buy goods and services with low upkeep cost, thus 22% of revenue but 72% of profit. They also didn't protect the brand through the attempted to lock it down, instead damaging the brand name and IP attached among the primary driving force of the community.
I, personally - was never "mad".
Bottom line is I want to play a good game and I will vote with my money which games qualify as good for me. 5e has always been a situation of "that's what other people are playing so I guess I will." - for me. I Never bought 5e because I thought it was the best product - it's just what the vast majority were playing.
WOTC in the past month demonstrably was going to be a game that I would not want to spend any money on.
When WOTC "gave up" - for me - they moved from the "AW HELL NAH" category into once again the "We will see what comes out in 2024' category. But since I only ever tolerated 5e to begin with , I will keep my ears to the wind and see where the player base is. If I can only find games in 5e - well, I still have the 5e books I had last month. If I can find games in other systems, I will see how those games are.
None of this is done in anger - it's done completely logically that I want to spend my money on the game material that I will enjoy most with others.
I'm not talking legally, just in the general sense - companies goals are to make profit. They tried something, it didn't work, so they stepped back and undid it. They'll try something else, or try again when they think it might work better... But the company is acting how a company acts, trying to profit. It would be nice if companies were happy staying small mom & pop shops that were all about being good neighbors and doing right by their customers but that kind of socialism never works out, no matter how much we may want it to. Not in the long run, anyway.
As for morally... I'm pretty sure we have different morals and I doubt the mods want us debating them here, so can we just leave that out? Thanks.
Investors being upset is also part of how the system works. Their being upset about the impact this had on profits and brand identity if more proof that everything is working like it should.
I do not believe this is accurate and is an exageration. Believe me when I tell you that anything remotely resembling anything you are describing (if flagged) results in the offender getting a little message and a warning from a moderator and it's impossible to be "literally nonstop for weeks" - because the moderators do give suspensions for such behavior if repeated.
So when I see your post - without drama and without any ill intent - I say you are just factually wrong.