I understand that, technically, the agreement that we make is to “rent” the books from WotC for as long as WotC makes the books available to “rent.”
But it’s a bad agreement, and I struggle with the framing of the agreement as fair or just.
It’s not a fair or just agreement.
It’s just the only agreement that WotC offers for DNDBeyond.
I understand that, technically, the agreement that we make is to “rent” the books from WotC for as long as WotC makes the books available to “rent.”
But it’s a bad agreement, and I struggle with the framing of the agreement as fair or just.
It’s not a fair or just agreement.
It’s just the only agreement that WotC offers for DNDBeyond.
Let's remember that is a completely hypothetical situation proposed.
Some people in here have had some emotional responses to something that isn't even happening or shows no signs of actually happening.
As for licenses and such, this is also how it works for digital distribution of video games, office software, and pretty much every digital product ever made. It's always been that you buy a license and the software itself has never been yours. So it's not exclusive to just WotC for those looking to make them a villian.
As for licenses and such, this is also how it works for digital distribution of video games, office software, and pretty much every digital product ever made. It's always been that you buy a license and the software itself has never been yours. So it's not exclusive to just WotC for those looking to make them a villian.
Agreed. And WotC aren't the worst company by a country mile - I have a game that requires online verification which is no longer provided, so my game is dead.
That said, the discussion should be had. I never realised when I bought that game that I could lose access like that, being a game that can be played offline. People need awareness of this flaw, and to be honest, WotC isn't immune to that behaviour.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Personally, I think what they did with MMM seems entirely reasonable and fair. Folks who already had access to that content get to keep it, so they don’t need to buy the new version or could choose to use the older versions if they prefer. Having lived through prior edition changes and purchased my content here fully knowing (and not being concerned by) the fact it is not mine, I’m feeling particularly pleased with the deference the soft rollout of OneD&D is showing to old content.
It also is rather likely that, if Wizards decides to remove older content players have purchased, they very likely will provide a warning a month or so in advance, and likely long, long after the content was moved to “legacy”. That is how they handled 4e’s digital tools - they cut off new subscriptions shortly after 5e released, but honoured existing players’ content for years until the system finally started to break due to updates from browsers and they discontinued it.
It is very likely, based on past practices, that Wizards will give at least a month or two of warning before fully removing legacy content (if they even ever remove it—it isn’t like Beyond is going anywhere, so the platform will not fall apart in the same way 4e’s platform did). Plenty of time to copy things into the homebrew system or protest the removal.
unless there is a total reimbursement for the total price of the legacy content removed then the loss of trust will be the deathknell for any future digital WotC and dnd beyond purchases
While I agree that it would likely provoke a loss of trust for many if such a thing were to happen, they have yet to do anything like this, and thus far have done the opposite with making content available as "Legacy" for those who had purchased books which are no longer available. I disagree, however, with the idea of a total reimbursement, as depending on when a user joined and purchased content they may have had up to 6 years to use said content, and I don't think that value (or the cost to provide it) goes up in smoke if the content goes away.
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Much that once was is lost. Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear. All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
unless there is a total reimbursement for the total price of the legacy content removed then the loss of trust will be the deathknell for any future digital WotC and dnd beyond purchases
While I agree that it would likely provoke a loss of trust for many if such a thing were to happen, they have yet to do anything like this, and thus far have done the opposite with making content available as "Legacy" for those who had purchased books which are no longer available. I disagree, however, with the idea of a total reimbursement, as depending on when a user joined and purchased content they may have had up to 6 years to use said content, and I don't think that value (or the cost to provide it) goes up in smoke if the content goes away.
The legacy isn't really so much the opposite so much as the compromise.
Yeah, I agree that the full value isn't reasonable. Something should be done though. Personally, PDFs would be perfectly acceptable - WotC's paranoia about them shouldn't be a problem since they aren't even seeking to profit from them anymore anyway.
But then, I get how irrational those kinds of thought processes can get in organisations.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think leaving the content on the site (however it's labeled) is definitely the opposite of removing it. I also think providing PDFs for content that will no longer be available would be a nice offer, but I wonder if WotC/Hasboro will do it, since they might consider that allowing the old version to compete with the new version. I think since One D&D is meant to be backward compatible, it is probably only the core books that would be at risk on DDB any time soon. All that said, all we can do is hope that they will make a goodwill gesture when the time comes, because the Terms and Conditions make pretty clear that purchases here on DDB are not 'ownership'.
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Much that once was is lost. Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear. All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
While removing content from online libraries has been known to happen, it's super rare unless the service itself shuts down. A more likely issue is them ceasing to work correctly with other parts of the site (e.g. the encounter builder) because they changed some protocol and only updated current products for the new protocol.
Just buy the books physically from your local hobby shop. Problem solved.
Subject to the large number of ways physical books can get lost or destroyed, of course.
That's fair, though if you're concerned about damaging or losing books, you'd be careful about it anyway, right?
"Just buy physical books” is hardly a helpful comment on a thread asking about what should happen to already purchased digital content. Not only is it the functional equivalent of saying “get a time machine and solve your problem by having made a different purchase choice” it ignores the pretty obvious reasons folks purchase digital content.
Speaking for myself—and I expect many others—ownership rights over content are far, far less important to me than (a) the ability to share my content with my players who live hundreds or thousands of miles away, (b) the ability to look up that content on my phone wherever I happen to be, and (c) the digital toolsets that streamline character creation (particularly helpful since I often DM for new players; though, even for myself, I feel I’ve done my time playing book, pen, and paper and don’t need to go back to that).
It is pretty easy to declare “problem solved” if you discount the fact your “solution” is going to create a whole bunch of obvious other—arguably worse—problems you choose not to address.
Just buy the books physically from your local hobby shop. Problem solved.
Subject to the large number of ways physical books can get lost or destroyed, of course.
That's fair, though if you're concerned about damaging or losing books, you'd be careful about it anyway, right?
"Just buy physical books” is hardly a helpful comment on a thread asking about what should happen to already purchased digital content. Not only is it the functional equivalent of saying “get a time machine and solve your problem by having made a different purchase choice” it ignores the pretty obvious reasons folks purchase digital content.
Speaking for myself—and I expect many others—ownership rights over content are far, far less important to me than (a) the ability to share my content with my players who live hundreds or thousands of miles away, (b) the ability to look up that content on my phone wherever I happen to be, and (c) the digital toolsets that streamline character creation (particularly helpful since I often DM for new players; though, even for myself, I feel I’ve done my time playing book, pen, and paper and don’t need to go back to that).
It is pretty easy to declare “problem solved” if you discount the fact your “solution” is going to create a whole bunch of obvious other—arguably worse—problems you choose not to address.
Understandable. In truth, I find digital tools such as ******* D&D Beyond and Roll20 much more convenient than my physical books. Thanks for the insight.
I just think it's odd that people complain about not having actual ownership over the digital books they've bought. Like yeah, no shit.
Either way, thanks for explaining how my comment is ultimately moot.
I don’t think they owe anyone anything as I bought it knowing at some point it “might” go away like the 4e online thing went away. I bought my books and master tier to be able to share with the group as well as buying the fantasy grounds and physical copy of most of it. Would I be bummed if it did, slightly for the convenience it offers but I’d get over it.
That is kind of bullshit and you know it, sure you can make a legal argument that they don't owe the consumer anything because they covered their arse in the TOS but it would not make it any less shitty if they decided to just get rid of content users paid for with no reimbursement, legal does not exactly mean it is moral or justified.
I'm not making a "********" argument, because it is both legally and morally right for a company to do something that they have explicitly communicated it is their right to do. If you did not read the Terms of Service or any information about products you bought before you spent your money on them, then A) I'm sorry because that's not a good idea and can lead to potential harm and B) You had the chance to be educated before purchasing, so it seems a bit unfair to complain about not knowing something that you could have easily learned.
D&D Beyond has always and likely will always only give you access to viewing and using material from books, they do not let you own it. If you want access to your books forever, then either find another Online resource to give you that, or buy physical books from places like your local game store. There are other alternatives, but when you buy from this website, you agree to the terms and conditions here.
If a company makes it clear that they have every right to do something and you agree to them potentially doing it, then both legally and morally, it is fair for them to do what you have explicitly authorized and consented to.
Ultimately however, we do not know how Wizards of the Coast and D&D Beyond will handle the situation and what they will do here. All people are doing is complaining about how bad a decision that hasn't, and possibly won't ever, be made. To me at least, I find it quite frustrating that you managed to accuse me of lying or being intentionally deceitful and swear at me 3 times in 1 sentence. Though you may dislike what I'm saying, please at a minimum remember to be civil and respectful.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
unless there is a total reimbursement for the total price of the legacy content removed then the loss of trust will be the deathknell for any future digital WotC and dnd beyond purchases
Totally agree. Not legally of course, but personally. I've spent Hundreds of dollars and that would become Not a penny more and I imagine there'd be a chunk of 'whales'/'collectors' who would feel similar.
I think you harbor a misunderstanding of what a "whale" or even a "collector" is. Whales are people who have no problem spending money for status or convenience and who are quite used to doing so in a cyclical way. Do you think whales just stop spending money when their mobile wifu gacha game shuts down and the company opens a new shiny game with more new shiny wifus to collect? No, the whales just move to new feeding grounds and continue to spend on the things they like because their enjoyment of the product outweighs their value of the money. "Collectors" on the other hand, aren't dumb enough to waste their time on ephemeral material that can disappear at any time. Collectors, in this sense, are buying physical books and other paraphernalia that they can keep and display, and aren't beholden to the whims of a company or server malfunction. If collectors are using this service at all, they are using it for its intended purpose; to make referencing content and managing characters convenient. If the content goes away, they will either move to the next iteration or go back to their more permanent collections, sacrificing ease for stability.
So yeah, WotC will continue to have the whales they have hooked and the collectors that like the service. What they may lose are people who don't understand what they purchased and are mad that they didn't value the service properly with their limited funds. But then, probably only briefly because convenience is still pretty king.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
D&D Beyond has always and likely will always only give you access to viewing and using material from books, they do not let you own it. If you want access to your books forever, then either find another Online resource to give you that, or buy physical books from places like your local game store. There are other alternatives, but when you buy from this website, you agree to the terms and conditions here.
I would note that the reason for "access, but not own" is not generally "so the company can take it away", it's to prevent certain types of claims you could make if you did own it. These are not valueless (for example, if you buy a book and no longer want it you can sell it to a used book store, you can't legally do that with your purchases on DDB), but they rarely come up in normal usage.
The conflation of legal and moral in this thread is making my eye twitch.
When a company says "We may do X, you agree to this by doing Y", it seems morally fair for them to do X, and the people who willingly and knowingly gave permission for DD&B to revoke access to their books by purchasing the right to view those products really aren't able to fairly complain about what they consented to happening.
If an individual or corporation clearly communicates that they might do something and if you agree to it, then in my book at least, it's perfectly moral for them to do something you authorized.
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BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explainHERE.
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Just buy the books physically from your local hobby shop. Problem solved.
[REDACTED]
I understand that, technically, the agreement that we make is to “rent” the books from WotC for as long as WotC makes the books available to “rent.”
But it’s a bad agreement, and I struggle with the framing of the agreement as fair or just.
It’s not a fair or just agreement.
It’s just the only agreement that WotC offers for DNDBeyond.
Refer to my previous comment
[REDACTED]
Let's remember that is a completely hypothetical situation proposed.
Some people in here have had some emotional responses to something that isn't even happening or shows no signs of actually happening.
As for licenses and such, this is also how it works for digital distribution of video games, office software, and pretty much every digital product ever made. It's always been that you buy a license and the software itself has never been yours. So it's not exclusive to just WotC for those looking to make them a villian.
Agreed. And WotC aren't the worst company by a country mile - I have a game that requires online verification which is no longer provided, so my game is dead.
That said, the discussion should be had. I never realised when I bought that game that I could lose access like that, being a game that can be played offline. People need awareness of this flaw, and to be honest, WotC isn't immune to that behaviour.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Personally, I think what they did with MMM seems entirely reasonable and fair. Folks who already had access to that content get to keep it, so they don’t need to buy the new version or could choose to use the older versions if they prefer. Having lived through prior edition changes and purchased my content here fully knowing (and not being concerned by) the fact it is not mine, I’m feeling particularly pleased with the deference the soft rollout of OneD&D is showing to old content.
It also is rather likely that, if Wizards decides to remove older content players have purchased, they very likely will provide a warning a month or so in advance, and likely long, long after the content was moved to “legacy”. That is how they handled 4e’s digital tools - they cut off new subscriptions shortly after 5e released, but honoured existing players’ content for years until the system finally started to break due to updates from browsers and they discontinued it.
It is very likely, based on past practices, that Wizards will give at least a month or two of warning before fully removing legacy content (if they even ever remove it—it isn’t like Beyond is going anywhere, so the platform will not fall apart in the same way 4e’s platform did). Plenty of time to copy things into the homebrew system or protest the removal.
While I agree that it would likely provoke a loss of trust for many if such a thing were to happen, they have yet to do anything like this, and thus far have done the opposite with making content available as "Legacy" for those who had purchased books which are no longer available. I disagree, however, with the idea of a total reimbursement, as depending on when a user joined and purchased content they may have had up to 6 years to use said content, and I don't think that value (or the cost to provide it) goes up in smoke if the content goes away.
Much that once was is lost.
Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear.
All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
The legacy isn't really so much the opposite so much as the compromise.
Yeah, I agree that the full value isn't reasonable. Something should be done though. Personally, PDFs would be perfectly acceptable - WotC's paranoia about them shouldn't be a problem since they aren't even seeking to profit from them anymore anyway.
But then, I get how irrational those kinds of thought processes can get in organisations.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think leaving the content on the site (however it's labeled) is definitely the opposite of removing it. I also think providing PDFs for content that will no longer be available would be a nice offer, but I wonder if WotC/Hasboro will do it, since they might consider that allowing the old version to compete with the new version. I think since One D&D is meant to be backward compatible, it is probably only the core books that would be at risk on DDB any time soon. All that said, all we can do is hope that they will make a goodwill gesture when the time comes, because the Terms and Conditions make pretty clear that purchases here on DDB are not 'ownership'.
Much that once was is lost.
Objects in Mirror Image are closer than they appear.
All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players, performers and portrayers...
While removing content from online libraries has been known to happen, it's super rare unless the service itself shuts down. A more likely issue is them ceasing to work correctly with other parts of the site (e.g. the encounter builder) because they changed some protocol and only updated current products for the new protocol.
Subject to the large number of ways physical books can get lost or destroyed, of course.
That's fair, though if you're concerned about damaging or losing books, you'd be careful about it anyway, right?
[REDACTED]
"Just buy physical books” is hardly a helpful comment on a thread asking about what should happen to already purchased digital content. Not only is it the functional equivalent of saying “get a time machine and solve your problem by having made a different purchase choice” it ignores the pretty obvious reasons folks purchase digital content.
Speaking for myself—and I expect many others—ownership rights over content are far, far less important to me than (a) the ability to share my content with my players who live hundreds or thousands of miles away, (b) the ability to look up that content on my phone wherever I happen to be, and (c) the digital toolsets that streamline character creation (particularly helpful since I often DM for new players; though, even for myself, I feel I’ve done my time playing book, pen, and paper and don’t need to go back to that).
It is pretty easy to declare “problem solved” if you discount the fact your “solution” is going to create a whole bunch of obvious other—arguably worse—problems you choose not to address.
Understandable. In truth, I find digital tools such as
*******D&D Beyond and Roll20 much more convenient than my physical books. Thanks for the insight.I just think it's odd that people complain about not having actual ownership over the digital books they've bought. Like yeah, no shit.
Either way, thanks for explaining how my comment is ultimately moot.
[REDACTED]
I don’t think they owe anyone anything as I bought it knowing at some point it “might” go away like the 4e online thing went away. I bought my books and master tier to be able to share with the group as well as buying the fantasy grounds and physical copy of most of it. Would I be bummed if it did, slightly for the convenience it offers but I’d get over it.
I'm not making a "********" argument, because it is both legally and morally right for a company to do something that they have explicitly communicated it is their right to do. If you did not read the Terms of Service or any information about products you bought before you spent your money on them, then A) I'm sorry because that's not a good idea and can lead to potential harm and B) You had the chance to be educated before purchasing, so it seems a bit unfair to complain about not knowing something that you could have easily learned.
D&D Beyond has always and likely will always only give you access to viewing and using material from books, they do not let you own it. If you want access to your books forever, then either find another Online resource to give you that, or buy physical books from places like your local game store. There are other alternatives, but when you buy from this website, you agree to the terms and conditions here.
If a company makes it clear that they have every right to do something and you agree to them potentially doing it, then both legally and morally, it is fair for them to do what you have explicitly authorized and consented to.
Ultimately however, we do not know how Wizards of the Coast and D&D Beyond will handle the situation and what they will do here. All people are doing is complaining about how bad a decision that hasn't, and possibly won't ever, be made. To me at least, I find it quite frustrating that you managed to accuse me of lying or being intentionally deceitful and swear at me 3 times in 1 sentence. Though you may dislike what I'm saying, please at a minimum remember to be civil and respectful.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.The conflation of legal and moral in this thread is making my eye twitch.
I think you harbor a misunderstanding of what a "whale" or even a "collector" is. Whales are people who have no problem spending money for status or convenience and who are quite used to doing so in a cyclical way. Do you think whales just stop spending money when their mobile wifu gacha game shuts down and the company opens a new shiny game with more new shiny wifus to collect? No, the whales just move to new feeding grounds and continue to spend on the things they like because their enjoyment of the product outweighs their value of the money. "Collectors" on the other hand, aren't dumb enough to waste their time on ephemeral material that can disappear at any time. Collectors, in this sense, are buying physical books and other paraphernalia that they can keep and display, and aren't beholden to the whims of a company or server malfunction. If collectors are using this service at all, they are using it for its intended purpose; to make referencing content and managing characters convenient. If the content goes away, they will either move to the next iteration or go back to their more permanent collections, sacrificing ease for stability.
So yeah, WotC will continue to have the whales they have hooked and the collectors that like the service. What they may lose are people who don't understand what they purchased and are mad that they didn't value the service properly with their limited funds. But then, probably only briefly because convenience is still pretty king.
I would note that the reason for "access, but not own" is not generally "so the company can take it away", it's to prevent certain types of claims you could make if you did own it. These are not valueless (for example, if you buy a book and no longer want it you can sell it to a used book store, you can't legally do that with your purchases on DDB), but they rarely come up in normal usage.
When a company says "We may do X, you agree to this by doing Y", it seems morally fair for them to do X, and the people who willingly and knowingly gave permission for DD&B to revoke access to their books by purchasing the right to view those products really aren't able to fairly complain about what they consented to happening.
If an individual or corporation clearly communicates that they might do something and if you agree to it, then in my book at least, it's perfectly moral for them to do something you authorized.
BoringBard's long and tedious posts somehow manage to enrapture audiences. How? Because he used Charm Person, the #1 bard spell!
He/him pronouns. Call me Bard. PROUD NERD!
Ever wanted to talk about your parties' worst mistakes? Do so HERE. What's your favorite class, why? Share & explain
HERE.