ok so the new one DnD introduces a feature to wizards in the form of two new spells. Modify spell, and create spell: they are important here.
so we all understand that 2 levels of tempest cleric allows you to maximise lightning/thunder damage as part of your channel divinity.
it has probably occurred to most people to use this with metamagic to maximise the fire portion of meteor swarm's damage. always we wanted the full 40d6, but sadly it is split.
remember when doc holiday said in the movie tombstone "I have two guns... one for each of ya" our two guns here are modify spell and transmute spell from the metamagic adept feat, one for each of the 20d6 portions of meteor swarms damage.
with modify spell, or create spell, you can alter the damage of the bludgeoning damage, to be lightning/thunder, and transmute spell can alter the fire damage. we do it this way because transmute spell cant change blugeoning, but alter spell/create spell can.
what you would be left with is a pending roll of 40d6 lightning/thunder, which you replace with channel divinity to max the damage.
the only way to really stop this is if a dm hates fun and only ever wants you to memorize wish. possibly by making you roll it as 20d6 lightning/thunder, and 20d6 lightning/thunder instead of 40d6 lightning/thunder, although this wouldn't make sense since meteor swarm's wording seems to make 1 saving throw, suggesting that you would roll the damage at once, especially if they are already the same damage type.
this is 240 damage.
if you do this on a chronurgist wizard, you can make something fail the saving throw.
if you make it use thunder damage, i'd imagine a dm that loves fun would add deafness to it...
First off modify spell and create spell are play test, we currently do not know whether when the fan point this sort of thing out whether it will make the final release. I am also unsure whether a chronurgy wizard will work with 5e2024 content.
That aside meteor swarm deals a huge amount of damage, doubling it might be nice but it is still a damage dealing spell and that is all it does.
Wish does not produce as much damage as meteor swarm (at least not without great risk). If you want to go to celestial and you do not have a fork tuned to the plane, no problem with wish. Need to talk yourself out of trouble and no-one knows glibness you can cast it via wish. It is this versatility that makes wish the best 9th level spell in 5e2014 and possibly 5e2024.
combat is the biggest pillar of play, most of the rules revolve around it. and damage is the biggest pillar of combat. Therefore you could say having the biggest damage can't really be summed up as "that's all it does" as if it were nothing important.
wish is spending your ninth level slot for situational coverage. which really, you can cover most of with other spells anyway. and every time you use it that way, you're using it sub-optimally. using a 9th level spell slot sub-optimally to cover smaller parts of play, when you could use it optimally to cover the largest part of play is not a strong argument in it's favour, rather the reverse.
it's not like wish is a bad spell, but you also have to consider the drawbacks, such as a 33% chance to be lost forever that requires a crap ton of playing around (which costs a fortune and a lot of time) to avoid, in ways most dm's would disallow. and also basically inviting the DM to screw you over. some DM's even ban wish, but i don't think i've ever heard of one that bans meteor swarm.
meteor swarm actually does something else... damage to objects, which isn't common.
that means you can grind a castle to dust if you like. from a mile away, or destroy an army with 4 80 foot diameter balls of gtfo
nothing else 8th level or lower offers close to that much destructiveness for a single spell slot. so i'd say the scale of the damage outweighs the flexibility of wish.
modify spells actually indirectly nerfs wish in that you can eschew many components with it, so you wouldn't actually need to worry about covering a tuning fork with your 8th level slot.
you don't need to be glib when you have a nuke in your pocket... to add to this, the threat of power has power, so you won't even need to cast meteor swarm often. just knowing you can will effectively be enough to not have to spend the slot... think America after hiroshima and nagasaki. they have nukes but never need to fire them max damage meteor swarm is the dnd equivilent.
wish is spending your ninth level slot for situational coverage. which really, you can cover most of with other spells anyway. and every time you use it that way, you're using it sub-optimally. using a 9th level spell slot sub-optimally to cover smaller parts of play, when you could use it optimally to cover the largest part of play is not a strong argument in it's favour, rather the reverse.
This argument is...reversed.
Meteor Swarm is absolutely awesome...at the one thing it does, which is dealing low to mid amounts of damage (you're at Tier 5 by the time you can cast it) over a massive area. It's great if you're fighting a massive army without worries about collateral damage...but that's about it. For single targets, there are better spells to do damage. For literally any other desire, there are a whole ton of better spells. Meteor Swarm has that one niche that it is awesome at...and nothing else.
Wish on the other hand, grants you the ability to instantly cast literally any L8 or lower spell without cost beyond your spell slot. It doesn't matter if the spell is known by you or if it's even in your class spell list. It just works. It covers literally every effect in the game...it just doesn't go to the same degree as the other L9 spells in their niches. On top of that, you can potentially wish for anything at all...albeit at the risk of losing it for using this aspect.
If you want a wide range of applications and uses, Wish is the ultimate spell, by a massive margin. Second place is over the horizon. Meteor Swarm isn't even second place. It might make top ten. Maybe.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
combat is the biggest pillar of play, most of the rules revolve around it. and damage is the biggest pillar of combat.
Combat is not necessarily the biggest pillar of play - plenty of groups are roleplay heavy, plenty are combat heavy. Each group is going to be different, and the rules do not express a preference for one pillar over the other. There are more rules for combat, yes, but that is for fairly obvious design reasons. Roleplay and noncombat checks need to be flexible - a DM needs to be able to react to situations in ways that might not be fully coveted by the rules, and having strict rules limits that possibility by inviting more “but the rules say [illogical outcome] should happen” discussions. Combat, on the other hand, needs strict rules - those rules ensure everyone is on the same page about what should happen, and provide protections for players against their DM.
Frankly, I think both Wish and Meteor Swarm (regardless of how you modify it) are incredibly boring spells. Wish reads “have exactly the tool to solve any problem, no matter what the problem might be,” leasing to unsatisfying gameplay (not to mention potential main character syndrome issues). Meteor Swarm is simply dull - it does damage and nothing else, and, even then, it often isn’t the best option.
You can do this in the current version of the game with Scribe Wizard and Tempest Cleric multiclass. I don't know how you would guarantee a target fails the save without having another player in the party though.
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I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
combat is the biggest pillar of play, most of the rules revolve around it. and damage is the biggest pillar of combat. Therefore you could say having the biggest damage can't really be summed up as "that's all it does" as if it were nothing important.
I would argue that MS isn't really a combat spell. It affects the world on a different scale than D&D combat where the battlefield usually fits entirely within the boundaries a single meteor strike. I think most DMs aren't even going to ask for a damage roll, or if there is one it doesn't really affect their ruling on the result. You destroy the village. You break the siege. No one is deducting 40d6 hit points from 200 soldiers or 30 buildings.
It's nice if someone's running away and you want to send a message with massive collateral damage, but it is designed to work more in the narrative form of the game rather than combat.
ok so the new one DnD introduces a feature to wizards in the form of two new spells. Modify spell, and create spell: they are important here.
so we all understand that 2 levels of tempest cleric allows you to maximise lightning/thunder damage as part of your channel divinity.
it has probably occurred to most people to use this with metamagic to maximise the fire portion of meteor swarm's damage. always we wanted the full 40d6, but sadly it is split.
remember when doc holiday said in the movie tombstone "I have two guns... one for each of ya" our two guns here are modify spell and transmute spell from the metamagic adept feat, one for each of the 20d6 portions of meteor swarms damage.
with modify spell, or create spell, you can alter the damage of the bludgeoning damage, to be lightning/thunder, and transmute spell can alter the fire damage. we do it this way because transmute spell cant change blugeoning, but alter spell/create spell can.
what you would be left with is a pending roll of 40d6 lightning/thunder, which you replace with channel divinity to max the damage.
the only way to really stop this is if a dm hates fun and only ever wants you to memorize wish. possibly by making you roll it as 20d6 lightning/thunder, and 20d6 lightning/thunder instead of 40d6 lightning/thunder, although this wouldn't make sense since meteor swarm's wording seems to make 1 saving throw, suggesting that you would roll the damage at once, especially if they are already the same damage type.
this is 240 damage.
if you do this on a chronurgist wizard, you can make something fail the saving throw.
if you make it use thunder damage, i'd imagine a dm that loves fun would add deafness to it...
that is all :)
Especially with one D&D I would not allow this. Esentially you are trying to play the system by using the wizard's version of metamagic (modify spell) and then stealing the sorceror's version via the feat. While RAW it might be legal it certainly isnt RAI and you would not get the feat in my game. I don't mind a certain amount of power gaming but when you steal a different' classes big trick make something way overloaded its too much.
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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ok so the new one DnD introduces a feature to wizards in the form of two new spells. Modify spell, and create spell: they are important here.
so we all understand that 2 levels of tempest cleric allows you to maximise lightning/thunder damage as part of your channel divinity.
it has probably occurred to most people to use this with metamagic to maximise the fire portion of meteor swarm's damage. always we wanted the full 40d6, but sadly it is split.
remember when doc holiday said in the movie tombstone "I have two guns... one for each of ya" our two guns here are modify spell and transmute spell from the metamagic adept feat, one for each of the 20d6 portions of meteor swarms damage.
with modify spell, or create spell, you can alter the damage of the bludgeoning damage, to be lightning/thunder, and transmute spell can alter the fire damage. we do it this way because transmute spell cant change blugeoning, but alter spell/create spell can.
what you would be left with is a pending roll of 40d6 lightning/thunder, which you replace with channel divinity to max the damage.
the only way to really stop this is if a dm hates fun and only ever wants you to memorize wish. possibly by making you roll it as 20d6 lightning/thunder, and 20d6 lightning/thunder instead of 40d6 lightning/thunder, although this wouldn't make sense since meteor swarm's wording seems to make 1 saving throw, suggesting that you would roll the damage at once, especially if they are already the same damage type.
this is 240 damage.
if you do this on a chronurgist wizard, you can make something fail the saving throw.
if you make it use thunder damage, i'd imagine a dm that loves fun would add deafness to it...
that is all :)
First off modify spell and create spell are play test, we currently do not know whether when the fan point this sort of thing out whether it will make the final release. I am also unsure whether a chronurgy wizard will work with 5e2024 content.
That aside meteor swarm deals a huge amount of damage, doubling it might be nice but it is still a damage dealing spell and that is all it does.
Wish does not produce as much damage as meteor swarm (at least not without great risk). If you want to go to celestial and you do not have a fork tuned to the plane, no problem with wish. Need to talk yourself out of trouble and no-one knows glibness you can cast it via wish. It is this versatility that makes wish the best 9th level spell in 5e2014 and possibly 5e2024.
combat is the biggest pillar of play, most of the rules revolve around it. and damage is the biggest pillar of combat. Therefore you could say having the biggest damage can't really be summed up as "that's all it does" as if it were nothing important.
wish is spending your ninth level slot for situational coverage. which really, you can cover most of with other spells anyway. and every time you use it that way, you're using it sub-optimally. using a 9th level spell slot sub-optimally to cover smaller parts of play, when you could use it optimally to cover the largest part of play is not a strong argument in it's favour, rather the reverse.
it's not like wish is a bad spell, but you also have to consider the drawbacks, such as a 33% chance to be lost forever that requires a crap ton of playing around (which costs a fortune and a lot of time) to avoid, in ways most dm's would disallow. and also basically inviting the DM to screw you over. some DM's even ban wish, but i don't think i've ever heard of one that bans meteor swarm.
meteor swarm actually does something else... damage to objects, which isn't common.
that means you can grind a castle to dust if you like. from a mile away, or destroy an army with 4 80 foot diameter balls of gtfo
nothing else 8th level or lower offers close to that much destructiveness for a single spell slot. so i'd say the scale of the damage outweighs the flexibility of wish.
modify spells actually indirectly nerfs wish in that you can eschew many components with it, so you wouldn't actually need to worry about covering a tuning fork with your 8th level slot.
you don't need to be glib when you have a nuke in your pocket... to add to this, the threat of power has power, so you won't even need to cast meteor swarm often. just knowing you can will effectively be enough to not have to spend the slot... think America after hiroshima and nagasaki. they have nukes but never need to fire them max damage meteor swarm is the dnd equivilent.
This argument is...reversed.
Meteor Swarm is absolutely awesome...at the one thing it does, which is dealing low to mid amounts of damage (you're at Tier 5 by the time you can cast it) over a massive area. It's great if you're fighting a massive army without worries about collateral damage...but that's about it. For single targets, there are better spells to do damage. For literally any other desire, there are a whole ton of better spells. Meteor Swarm has that one niche that it is awesome at...and nothing else.
Wish on the other hand, grants you the ability to instantly cast literally any L8 or lower spell without cost beyond your spell slot. It doesn't matter if the spell is known by you or if it's even in your class spell list. It just works. It covers literally every effect in the game...it just doesn't go to the same degree as the other L9 spells in their niches. On top of that, you can potentially wish for anything at all...albeit at the risk of losing it for using this aspect.
If you want a wide range of applications and uses, Wish is the ultimate spell, by a massive margin. Second place is over the horizon. Meteor Swarm isn't even second place. It might make top ten. Maybe.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Combat is not necessarily the biggest pillar of play - plenty of groups are roleplay heavy, plenty are combat heavy. Each group is going to be different, and the rules do not express a preference for one pillar over the other. There are more rules for combat, yes, but that is for fairly obvious design reasons. Roleplay and noncombat checks need to be flexible - a DM needs to be able to react to situations in ways that might not be fully coveted by the rules, and having strict rules limits that possibility by inviting more “but the rules say [illogical outcome] should happen” discussions. Combat, on the other hand, needs strict rules - those rules ensure everyone is on the same page about what should happen, and provide protections for players against their DM.
Frankly, I think both Wish and Meteor Swarm (regardless of how you modify it) are incredibly boring spells. Wish reads “have exactly the tool to solve any problem, no matter what the problem might be,” leasing to unsatisfying gameplay (not to mention potential main character syndrome issues). Meteor Swarm is simply dull - it does damage and nothing else, and, even then, it often isn’t the best option.
You can do this in the current version of the game with Scribe Wizard and Tempest Cleric multiclass. I don't know how you would guarantee a target fails the save without having another player in the party though.
I write homebrew and don't publish it. (evil, I know)
I would argue that MS isn't really a combat spell. It affects the world on a different scale than D&D combat where the battlefield usually fits entirely within the boundaries a single meteor strike. I think most DMs aren't even going to ask for a damage roll, or if there is one it doesn't really affect their ruling on the result. You destroy the village. You break the siege. No one is deducting 40d6 hit points from 200 soldiers or 30 buildings.
It's nice if someone's running away and you want to send a message with massive collateral damage, but it is designed to work more in the narrative form of the game rather than combat.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Especially with one D&D I would not allow this. Esentially you are trying to play the system by using the wizard's version of metamagic (modify spell) and then stealing the sorceror's version via the feat. While RAW it might be legal it certainly isnt RAI and you would not get the feat in my game. I don't mind a certain amount of power gaming but when you steal a different' classes big trick make something way overloaded its too much.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.