If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D. Never cared about the Factions Alignment Basis though, always preferred that sort of thing to be more political in design.
If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D. Never cared about the Factions Alignment Basis though, always preferred that sort of thing to be more political in design.
It really has become a different game. It went from being a game that infuriated fundies to one that looks more and more like a Disney film with every passing year.
There is some Planescape artwork doing the rounds in articles reporting on the release. To their credit one piece I have seen looks incredible. A wonderful depiction of the Lady of Pain that looks suitably alien. But another looks like something from a cartoon.
I will probably take a look at it. Read and watch reviews from reviewers I trust. I hope to be pleasantly surprised. I will buy it if I am. But I think this is highly unlikely.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
I've seen that Lady of Pain picture, I think it might be for the "special" FLGS cover to one of the books, not sure. But did like the strong nod to the original art. Haven't seen much, but yeah I do have concerns that a "world" where you have moral/philosophical concepts "incarnate" and playing out in different ways in the lives of primes ... may become at best something between Time Bandits and Bill and Ted. But I didn't notice the longer books in the product description so maybe there's some acknowledgement there that the setting does need a bit more attention than what happened with Spelljammer.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
With the new style of Spell Jammer, which takes the ships through the Astral instead of remaining on the Prime Material, Planescape was practically combined with Spell Jammer.
If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D.
That's certainly an opinion one can have, but there's been plenty of D&D for which that wasn't the case. There's been D&D in which there was no such thing as chaotic evil. The extraplanar cosmology is setting detail. I'd certainly expect to see it in Planescape, but it's far from mandatory.
Care to confirm that time period for which the Abyss wasn’t Chaotic Evil? I started playing in 1994 and the 1989 PHB and DMG certainly had it that way. Or rather alignment was part of it and the Tannari (sp?) were the physical incarnation thereof.
If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D.
That's certainly an opinion one can have, but there's been plenty of D&D for which that wasn't the case. There's been D&D in which there was no such thing as chaotic evil. The extraplanar cosmology is setting detail. I'd certainly expect to see it in Planescape, but it's far from mandatory.
Care to confirm that time period for which the Abyss wasn’t Chaotic Evil? I started playing in 1994 and the 1989 PHB and DMG certainly had it that way. Or rather alignment was part of it and the Tannari (so?) we’re the physical incarnation thereof.
If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D.
That's certainly an opinion one can have, but there's been plenty of D&D for which that wasn't the case. There's been D&D in which there was no such thing as chaotic evil. The extraplanar cosmology is setting detail. I'd certainly expect to see it in Planescape, but it's far from mandatory.
I think he means there have been times when Chaotic Evil wasn't even an alignment.
There hasn't always been that dual-axis alignment system. The original game had only law, chaos, and neutrality. The Moldvay boxed set returned to this simplification of things. But for the rest of the game's history—to my knowledge—there have been all nine alignments.
But I see your point. If they sanitize things—the Abyss of all things!—it's just further evidence of how the game is increasingly facing Disneyfication.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
4E did drop the two-axis alignment system in favor of something like LG-NG-N-NE-CE iirc, but 4E also met with massive backlash for changes like that, which is why it's back in 5E. Honestly, I'd hope if they get into the Outer Planes, they at least have some optional mechanics for alignment. There's already some material for that in the current DMG. Honestly I think I net out to ambivalent about alignment mechanics on a planar scale; on the one hand it's thematically on point, on the other it can be a pain if most of the group is being affected by it. MotM didn't do anything more dramatic than add a "typically" to all the alignment descriptions (which itself is rather redundant if you're applying it to everything, but that's another matter), so I doubt they're going to do anything dramatic.
BTW, just saw one of your inspirations as Clark Ashton Smith. Solid choice!
Love me some CAS. Solid taste you have there!
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
Descent into Avernus had an optional(?) rule about making some sort of check or save or feel the tug toward LE. Sort of like an exhaustion mechanic, at a certain point of failure a PC could just become LE barring Clerical or other divine intervention. DMG has a few things like Vile Transformation in Hades and Beast Transformation in the Beast Lands as options, I could see those reiterated. Curious whether they're going to mess around with magic like the tables in 2e, but I'm guessing no. It's one thing to prompt a DM to track one potential side effect, a table explaining the varying effects each plane has on the entire spell list is probably too crunchy for 5e's philosophy, so to speak.
Factions and how they may play does have me curious. Really "ideology" in 5e and most officially published D&D for that matter doesn't get much further than heroes v BBEG. People talk about political games and intrigue, but for the most part that plays out from what I've seen as heroes vs BBEG with a lot of socialization. I guess maybe Out of the Abyss and Descent into Avernus had people dealing with entities they'd classically consider enemies, but that was still about using folks as a conveyance to a fight. Planescape wasn't really about that.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Care to confirm that time period for which the Abyss wasn’t Chaotic Evil? I started playing in 1994 and the 1989 PHB and DMG certainly had it that way. Or rather alignment was part of it and the Tannari (so?) we’re the physical incarnation thereof.
If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D.
That's certainly an opinion one can have, but there's been plenty of D&D for which that wasn't the case. There's been D&D in which there was no such thing as chaotic evil. The extraplanar cosmology is setting detail. I'd certainly expect to see it in Planescape, but it's far from mandatory.
As mentioned, Chaotic Evil hasn't always been a thing. (Basic set, etc.)
The Abyss hasn't always been a thing. (Before the 1st edition DMG.)
It's a setting detail. Does Dragonlance have it? Eberron? Exandria? The MtG settings almost certainly don't; it doesn't fit the cosmology. Homebrews aren't required to have it to be D&D.
Since Planescape was built around the alignment wheel of planes, I'd expect it to still be there, but it's possible they're going to change it, because it doesn't really make sense. (This can mostly be fixed by removing the gods from the aligned outer planes, and giving them their own planes sorted by pantheon, so you don't have, for instance, all the LE gods hanging out together in the Nine Hells, but somehow not being involved in all the stuff going on with the devils.)
As mentioned, Chaotic Evil hasn't always been a thing. (Basic set, etc.)
The Abyss hasn't always been a thing. (Before the 1st edition DMG.)
It's a setting detail. Does Dragonlance have it? Eberron? Exandria? The MtG settings almost certainly don't; it doesn't fit the cosmology. Homebrews aren't required to have it to be D&D.
Since Planescape was built around the alignment wheel of planes, I'd expect it to still be there, but it's possible they're going to change it, because it doesn't really make sense. (This can mostly be fixed by removing the gods from the aligned outer planes, and giving them their own planes sorted by pantheon, so you don't have, for instance, all the LE gods hanging out together in the Nine Hells, but somehow not being involved in all the stuff going on with the devils.)
He asked if you could name a time when the Abyss wasn't Chaotic Evil. Not whether the Abyss has always been a part of D&D. Or whether Chaotic Evil has. Or whether it's been a part of other campaign settings. Or if without using it a game of D&D is still D&D. You are misreading and misunderstanding his point when he says if they change it it won't be D&D.
Many of us think changing and sanitizing things like this is an insult to the legacy of the game and to our intelligence. You needn't agree. That's your prerogative. But we don't need a history lesson from you in some bizarre effort to convince us we are wrong.
I started playing when I was a child in the eighties. Have been playing ever since. Exposure to demons and devils and what was a grittier game at the time and the idea of inherently wicked planes of existence didn't scare me then and it doesn't scare me now.
If they change and sanitize things and this makes the game feel less and less like D&D to many of us then it is what it is. It's why 4e was such a catastrophe. It was a like video game trying to be D&D.
5e is a good game. But the company's treatment in recent years of classic campaign settings has been bloody dire. I don't even think the artwork these days looks and feels like D&D.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
Dragonlance has it (Takhisis) and Exandria does too (PC’s haven’t traveled there yet but it’s solidly in the lore). I’m not sure about Eberron (just don’t play the setting) but it’s true it’s not in Dark Sun (but neither are any of the Planes). As far as making sense, it’s made sense for 30+ years and has basis in our own RL world, just like Hell does. What makes no sense is removing it.
He asked if you could name a time when the Abyss wasn't Chaotic Evil. Not whether the Abyss has always been a part of D&D
The original was "Home of all Chaotic Evil". Which is most certainly not true in any setting that doesn't have the Abyss, and really isn't true in any setting because every setting has included chaotic evil that wasn't particularly associated with the Abyss.
That said, as far as I know every setting that has included the Abyss has made it CE -- it's CE in the World Tree and World Axis, not just Great Wheel.
I am not worried about what is going to be in it; I am pretty satisfied with the quality of content Wizards puts out. I would like to see products that are dark and adult oriented, but that is probably best left to third parties. Wizards should focus on attracting new players and expanding the market instead.
What I am worried about is the quantity of content. Even at 256 pages, that is plain awful. Charge me more if you have to, because 160 pages of source book material is not a lot to work with. The PHB alone is 316 pages. I would not mind paying another $60 if it means I can get another 96 pages of setting information.
I am not a huge adventure book fan, so I am personally fine with 96 pages of it, but I do not think that is satisfactory for those who really like adventures. For reference, KFTGV is the shortest adventure book I own physically, and that is 208 pages long. TLMOP and DOSI from the starter sets are each 48 pages long, so an adventure book being literally two booklets bound in hard cover just seems silly to me.
The original was "Home of all Chaotic Evil". Which is most certainly not true in any setting that doesn't have the Abyss, and really isn't true in any setting because every setting has included chaotic evil that wasn't particularly associated with the Abyss.
That said, as far as I know every setting that has included the Abyss has made it CE -- it's CE in the World Tree and World Axis, not just Great Wheel.
Again this is straying from the actual point being made. A point I reiterated but that you cut out of your quote.
What is or is not true of any other given setting is beside the point. If that was their original conception of the Abyss and it wasn't a problem then why would it be one now?
This opinion that it "doesn't make sense" seems to be stemming from the belief that every game at every table set in any given setting and every story ever told and every little thing about D&D must be unified.
You don't find that weird?
It's a hobby that is a mighty fun way to tell stories. One that for decades has provided different settings and supplements to help us do so. It's not the end of the world if a setting even does conflict with another. How many of us DM campaigns in worlds of our making that "don't make sense" in the broader context of what is canon? Who cares? And most of us back in the day strictly played one published setting or another one at a time. We didn't sit around worrying about whether what made sense in Dragonlance made sense in Dark Sun. We played both. And we enjoyed them. You don't have to buy it or run it if you think it "doesn't make sense." It's not like you can't homebrew things so it does make sense for you and your players. For a long time there has been the implication the different worlds with the occasional exception share a common multiverse. These are worlds of magic and myth. Anything is possible. Treating the hobby like it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe and sitting around trying to compute how everything could possibly go together and growing anxious because this or that setting does things differently is wasted time better spent playing.
In the time it took me to type this some deity in someone else's game has probably died. That deity may live on in your yours and mine. It's crazy I know. But that doesn't "break the game" in any way. Not if it made for great storytelling.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
What is or is not true of any other given setting is beside the point. If that was their original conception of the Abyss and it wasn't a problem then why would it be one now?
Lots of original ideas are bad when you look back at them, but even if they get rid of alignment completely (which I'm not really expecting), that just means they wouldn't use the formal alignment names, not that the Abyss wouldn't still be a place full of chaos and evil.
Lots of original ideas are bad when you look back at them, but even if they get rid of alignment completely (which I'm not really expecting), that just means they wouldn't use the formal alignment names, not that the Abyss wouldn't still be a place full of chaos and evil.
Lots of original ideas are bad when you look back at them. History is full of examples of this. But no one has quite articulated why this particular idea is bad.
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INSPIRATIONS:Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
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If they got rid of the Abyss being the home of all Chaotic Evil (etc.), this would no longer be D&D. Never cared about the Factions Alignment Basis though, always preferred that sort of thing to be more political in design.
It really has become a different game. It went from being a game that infuriated fundies to one that looks more and more like a Disney film with every passing year.
There is some Planescape artwork doing the rounds in articles reporting on the release. To their credit one piece I have seen looks incredible. A wonderful depiction of the Lady of Pain that looks suitably alien. But another looks like something from a cartoon.
I will probably take a look at it. Read and watch reviews from reviewers I trust. I hope to be pleasantly surprised. I will buy it if I am. But I think this is highly unlikely.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
I've seen that Lady of Pain picture, I think it might be for the "special" FLGS cover to one of the books, not sure. But did like the strong nod to the original art. Haven't seen much, but yeah I do have concerns that a "world" where you have moral/philosophical concepts "incarnate" and playing out in different ways in the lives of primes ... may become at best something between Time Bandits and Bill and Ted. But I didn't notice the longer books in the product description so maybe there's some acknowledgement there that the setting does need a bit more attention than what happened with Spelljammer.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
With the new style of Spell Jammer, which takes the ships through the Astral instead of remaining on the Prime Material, Planescape was practically combined with Spell Jammer.
I just hope they do Sigil justice, but I’m not holding my breath.
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That's certainly an opinion one can have, but there's been plenty of D&D for which that wasn't the case. There's been D&D in which there was no such thing as chaotic evil. The extraplanar cosmology is setting detail. I'd certainly expect to see it in Planescape, but it's far from mandatory.
Care to confirm that time period for which the Abyss wasn’t Chaotic Evil? I started playing in 1994 and the 1989 PHB and DMG certainly had it that way. Or rather alignment was part of it and the Tannari (sp?) were the physical incarnation thereof.
I think he means there have been times when Chaotic Evil wasn't even an alignment.
There hasn't always been that dual-axis alignment system. The original game had only law, chaos, and neutrality. The Moldvay boxed set returned to this simplification of things. But for the rest of the game's history—to my knowledge—there have been all nine alignments.
But I see your point. If they sanitize things—the Abyss of all things!—it's just further evidence of how the game is increasingly facing Disneyfication.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
BTW, just saw one of your inspirations as Clark Ashton Smith. Solid choice!
4E did drop the two-axis alignment system in favor of something like LG-NG-N-NE-CE iirc, but 4E also met with massive backlash for changes like that, which is why it's back in 5E. Honestly, I'd hope if they get into the Outer Planes, they at least have some optional mechanics for alignment. There's already some material for that in the current DMG. Honestly I think I net out to ambivalent about alignment mechanics on a planar scale; on the one hand it's thematically on point, on the other it can be a pain if most of the group is being affected by it. MotM didn't do anything more dramatic than add a "typically" to all the alignment descriptions (which itself is rather redundant if you're applying it to everything, but that's another matter), so I doubt they're going to do anything dramatic.
Love me some CAS. Solid taste you have there!
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
Descent into Avernus had an optional(?) rule about making some sort of check or save or feel the tug toward LE. Sort of like an exhaustion mechanic, at a certain point of failure a PC could just become LE barring Clerical or other divine intervention. DMG has a few things like Vile Transformation in Hades and Beast Transformation in the Beast Lands as options, I could see those reiterated. Curious whether they're going to mess around with magic like the tables in 2e, but I'm guessing no. It's one thing to prompt a DM to track one potential side effect, a table explaining the varying effects each plane has on the entire spell list is probably too crunchy for 5e's philosophy, so to speak.
Factions and how they may play does have me curious. Really "ideology" in 5e and most officially published D&D for that matter doesn't get much further than heroes v BBEG. People talk about political games and intrigue, but for the most part that plays out from what I've seen as heroes vs BBEG with a lot of socialization. I guess maybe Out of the Abyss and Descent into Avernus had people dealing with entities they'd classically consider enemies, but that was still about using folks as a conveyance to a fight. Planescape wasn't really about that.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
As mentioned, Chaotic Evil hasn't always been a thing. (Basic set, etc.)
The Abyss hasn't always been a thing. (Before the 1st edition DMG.)
It's a setting detail. Does Dragonlance have it? Eberron? Exandria? The MtG settings almost certainly don't; it doesn't fit the cosmology. Homebrews aren't required to have it to be D&D.
Since Planescape was built around the alignment wheel of planes, I'd expect it to still be there, but it's possible they're going to change it, because it doesn't really make sense. (This can mostly be fixed by removing the gods from the aligned outer planes, and giving them their own planes sorted by pantheon, so you don't have, for instance, all the LE gods hanging out together in the Nine Hells, but somehow not being involved in all the stuff going on with the devils.)
He asked if you could name a time when the Abyss wasn't Chaotic Evil. Not whether the Abyss has always been a part of D&D. Or whether Chaotic Evil has. Or whether it's been a part of other campaign settings. Or if without using it a game of D&D is still D&D. You are misreading and misunderstanding his point when he says if they change it it won't be D&D.
Many of us think changing and sanitizing things like this is an insult to the legacy of the game and to our intelligence. You needn't agree. That's your prerogative. But we don't need a history lesson from you in some bizarre effort to convince us we are wrong.
I started playing when I was a child in the eighties. Have been playing ever since. Exposure to demons and devils and what was a grittier game at the time and the idea of inherently wicked planes of existence didn't scare me then and it doesn't scare me now.
If they change and sanitize things and this makes the game feel less and less like D&D to many of us then it is what it is. It's why 4e was such a catastrophe. It was a like video game trying to be D&D.
5e is a good game. But the company's treatment in recent years of classic campaign settings has been bloody dire. I don't even think the artwork these days looks and feels like D&D.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
Dragonlance has it (Takhisis) and Exandria does too (PC’s haven’t traveled there yet but it’s solidly in the lore). I’m not sure about Eberron (just don’t play the setting) but it’s true it’s not in Dark Sun (but neither are any of the Planes). As far as making sense, it’s made sense for 30+ years and has basis in our own RL world, just like Hell does. What makes no sense is removing it.
The original was "Home of all Chaotic Evil". Which is most certainly not true in any setting that doesn't have the Abyss, and really isn't true in any setting because every setting has included chaotic evil that wasn't particularly associated with the Abyss.
That said, as far as I know every setting that has included the Abyss has made it CE -- it's CE in the World Tree and World Axis, not just Great Wheel.
I am not worried about what is going to be in it; I am pretty satisfied with the quality of content Wizards puts out. I would like to see products that are dark and adult oriented, but that is probably best left to third parties. Wizards should focus on attracting new players and expanding the market instead.
What I am worried about is the quantity of content. Even at 256 pages, that is plain awful. Charge me more if you have to, because 160 pages of source book material is not a lot to work with. The PHB alone is 316 pages. I would not mind paying another $60 if it means I can get another 96 pages of setting information.
I am not a huge adventure book fan, so I am personally fine with 96 pages of it, but I do not think that is satisfactory for those who really like adventures. For reference, KFTGV is the shortest adventure book I own physically, and that is 208 pages long. TLMOP and DOSI from the starter sets are each 48 pages long, so an adventure book being literally two booklets bound in hard cover just seems silly to me.
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Again this is straying from the actual point being made. A point I reiterated but that you cut out of your quote.
What is or is not true of any other given setting is beside the point. If that was their original conception of the Abyss and it wasn't a problem then why would it be one now?
This opinion that it "doesn't make sense" seems to be stemming from the belief that every game at every table set in any given setting and every story ever told and every little thing about D&D must be unified.
You don't find that weird?
It's a hobby that is a mighty fun way to tell stories. One that for decades has provided different settings and supplements to help us do so. It's not the end of the world if a setting even does conflict with another. How many of us DM campaigns in worlds of our making that "don't make sense" in the broader context of what is canon? Who cares? And most of us back in the day strictly played one published setting or another one at a time. We didn't sit around worrying about whether what made sense in Dragonlance made sense in Dark Sun. We played both. And we enjoyed them. You don't have to buy it or run it if you think it "doesn't make sense." It's not like you can't homebrew things so it does make sense for you and your players. For a long time there has been the implication the different worlds with the occasional exception share a common multiverse. These are worlds of magic and myth. Anything is possible. Treating the hobby like it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe and sitting around trying to compute how everything could possibly go together and growing anxious because this or that setting does things differently is wasted time better spent playing.
In the time it took me to type this some deity in someone else's game has probably died. That deity may live on in your yours and mine. It's crazy I know. But that doesn't "break the game" in any way. Not if it made for great storytelling.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.
Lots of original ideas are bad when you look back at them, but even if they get rid of alignment completely (which I'm not really expecting), that just means they wouldn't use the formal alignment names, not that the Abyss wouldn't still be a place full of chaos and evil.
Lots of original ideas are bad when you look back at them. History is full of examples of this. But no one has quite articulated why this particular idea is bad.
INSPIRATIONS: Clark Ashton Smith, Mervyn Peake, Jack Vance, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Leiber, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, Steven Brust, Terry Pratchett, China Miéville.
SYSTEMS: ShadowDark, C&C, AD&D.
GEAR: pencils, graph paper, dice.