The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
There is nothing stopping you from burning a spell slot to cast a spell. Powerful spells like Leomund's SHOULD be burning a 3rd level slot, as that makes resource management that more interesting, and immersive, and hence, a better game.
Well, I never said there was anything stopping anyone from burning spell slots. Not sure where you’re going with that. As for “Leomund’s,” I presume you mean tiny hut and not secret chest. Is that correct? If so then the hut should have the R tag because it’s often most needed when the party has completely shot its load and hasn’t got the slot to spend. And as for secret chest, that’s a spell I think would get used more often if it had the R tag.
I did indeed mean Hut. As for a group that has shot its load, getting rid of the Ritual tag improves every single one of those spells, because it now forces better gameplay and immersion, because resource management becomes more important. Suddenly the Wizard has to consider "Do I burn this last slot on a Fireball, or save it for tonight when we camp in the forest?"
In the old days I would have agreed with you. But the average 5e player apparently loathes resource management according to WotC’s research and countless examples of anecdotal evidence from these and other forums. That’s why apparently the average 5e table usually completely ignores pretty much all of the following:
Material spell component requirements
Food & Water requirements including Rations
Tracking ammunition
Consumable magic items that don’t include the phrase “potion of healing” in their name
Chapter 8 of the PHB
Half each of chapters 5, 6, and 8 of the DMG
And that’s not even a comprehensive list, just the examples that kept to mind. You wanna add more resource management to the game for people to handwave away and ignore? At least with the R tag there’s an in-game, RAW excuse.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
There is nothing stopping you from burning a spell slot to cast a spell. Powerful spells like Leomund's SHOULD be burning a 3rd level slot, as that makes resource management that more interesting, and immersive, and hence, a better game.
Well, I never said there was anything stopping anyone from burning spell slots. Not sure where you’re going with that. As for “Leomund’s,” I presume you mean tiny hut and not secret chest. Is that correct? If so then the hut should have the R tag because it’s often most needed when the party has completely shot its load and hasn’t got the slot to spend. And as for secret chest, that’s a spell I think would get used more often if it had the R tag.
I did indeed mean Hut. As for a group that has shot its load, getting rid of the Ritual tag improves every single one of those spells, because it now forces better gameplay and immersion, because resource management becomes more important. Suddenly the Wizard has to consider "Do I burn this last slot on a Fireball, or save it for tonight when we camp in the forest?"
In the old days I would have agreed with you. But the average 5e player apparently loathes resource management according to WotC’s research and countless examples of anecdotal evidence from these and other forums. That’s why apparently the average 5e table usually completely ignores pretty much all of the following:
Material spell component requirements
Food & Water requirements including Rations
Tracking ammunition
Consumable magic items that don’t include the phrase “potion of healing” in their name
Chapter 8 of the PHB
Half each of chapters 5, 6, and 8 of the DMG
And that’s not even a comprehensive list, just the examples that kept to mind. You wanna add more resource management to the game for people to handwave away and ignore? At least with the R tag there’s an in-game, RAW excuse.
I have a very hard time believing that most of the 5e customer base wants that. Or perhaps, they have not been exposed to how much more enjoyable a game it is when all the things you listed are actually included. If a party tracks HP, then they can manage spell slots, and removing the Ritual tab makes for a better game.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
I still say a bast time of 30 minutes and a Ritual added 20 + 10/level would be good. As to “better” familiars, I dunno. I mean, I don’t know if that’s a good idea for two reasons.
CR is pretty much a measure of supposed combat effectiveness, and familiars can’t attack, so I don’t know if it’s a valuable metric in this case.
Find familiar is already a really good spell, so good in fact that it’s prohibited at some tables. (Admittedly the only tables I ever heard of banning it were ones that also ignored Material component costs. Changing a familiar from one form to another is supposed to cost 10gp worth of specific Materials every time. If that gets handwaved, or if you just go by gp without actually tracking the specific components a PC could run out of, the spell can be pretty abusable.)
Actually quite the opposite. Nobody was low enough on HP or resource to need a rest.
I just can not see how removing the ritual tag makes hings better or even easier.
It doesn't. JustaFarmer has a very idiosyncratic play style that he thinks everyone should be following.
Where ritual spells really shine is highly conditional utility. Comprehend Languages is a great example. Unless you know you need it, you never, ever prep it. You probably wouldn't even learn it in the first place without the ritual tag. You get only so many spells to learn, and have to prep an even smaller subset, and things that are more often useful are going to win out. (There are games where this isn't the case, but they're unusual.)
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
He said "any". I provided 3. You increased that to 4. Identify is a spell that is not that important, until suddenly it is very important. If a DM actually plays within the Encumbrance rules, Floating Disk is a big big deal when hauling coin out of a dungeon, or an unconscious party member. And I have had at least 3 different players that I can remember in the past 2 or 3 years have their PC's cast Alarm as a Ritual. At low levels, it is an incredibly useful spell, and 2 sessions ago it would saved the party a whole bunch of grief from a nasty wandering monster in the middle of the night.
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
He said "any". I provided 3. You increased that to 4. Identify is a spell that is not that important, until suddenly it is very important. If a DM actually plays within the Encumbrance rules, Floating Disk is a big big deal when hauling coin out of a dungeon, or an unconscious party member. And I have had at least 3 different players that I can remember in the past 2 or 3 years have their PC's cast Alarm as a Ritual. At low levels, it is an incredibly useful spell, and 2 sessions ago it would saved the party a whole bunch of grief from a nasty wandering monster in the middle of the night.
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
You and I pretty much agree on the mechanics. But what you see as a bad thing, I see as a good thing. A 5th level Mu with an 18 Int can memorize 9 spells. I love the fact that without the Ritual Tag that means some serious thought and planning has to go into spell memorization selection. And if Identify is not chosen, then so be it, and trying to figure out what magic items are which found in a troll lair has to wait for a day, and that adds more tension into the game.
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
He said "any". I provided 3. You increased that to 4. Identify is a spell that is not that important, until suddenly it is very important. If a DM actually plays within the Encumbrance rules, Floating Disk is a big big deal when hauling coin out of a dungeon, or an unconscious party member. And I have had at least 3 different players that I can remember in the past 2 or 3 years have their PC's cast Alarm as a Ritual. At low levels, it is an incredibly useful spell, and 2 sessions ago it would saved the party a whole bunch of grief from a nasty wandering monster in the middle of the night.
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
You and I pretty much agree on the mechanics. But what you see as a bad thing, I see as a good thing. A 5th level Mu with an 18 Int can memorize 9 spells. I love the fact that without the Ritual Tag that means some serious thought and planning has to go into spell memorization selection. And if Identify is not chosen, then so be it, and trying to figure out what magic items are which found in a troll lair has to wait for a day, and that adds more tension into the game.
Cool. I’m just not only considering my own preference in these matters, but instead the preferences of the greater D&D playing community, and the overwhelming majority of them disagree with you.
This thread has gotten off topic. This is not about whether Ritual Casting is good or not. This is a thought experiment to encourage ideas, not a 2+ page debate. If you want to debate a potential change, take it to a new thread.
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In the old days I would have agreed with you. But the average 5e player apparently loathes resource management according to WotC’s research and countless examples of anecdotal evidence from these and other forums. That’s why apparently the average 5e table usually completely ignores pretty much all of the following:
And that’s not even a comprehensive list, just the examples that kept to mind. You wanna add more resource management to the game for people to handwave away and ignore? At least with the R tag there’s an in-game, RAW excuse.
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What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
I have a very hard time believing that most of the 5e customer base wants that. Or perhaps, they have not been exposed to how much more enjoyable a game it is when all the things you listed are actually included. If a party tracks HP, then they can manage spell slots, and removing the Ritual tab makes for a better game.
I still say a bast time of 30 minutes and a Ritual added 20 + 10/level would be good. As to “better” familiars, I dunno. I mean, I don’t know if that’s a good idea for two reasons.
Actually quite the opposite. Nobody was low enough on HP or resource to need a rest.
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I just can not see how removing the ritual tag makes hings better or even easier.
Easier is not better. Removing the Ritual tag makes the game harder, and better.
It doesn't. JustaFarmer has a very idiosyncratic play style that he thinks everyone should be following.
Where ritual spells really shine is highly conditional utility. Comprehend Languages is a great example. Unless you know you need it, you never, ever prep it. You probably wouldn't even learn it in the first place without the ritual tag. You get only so many spells to learn, and have to prep an even smaller subset, and things that are more often useful are going to win out. (There are games where this isn't the case, but they're unusual.)
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
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You and I pretty much agree on the mechanics. But what you see as a bad thing, I see as a good thing. A 5th level Mu with an 18 Int can memorize 9 spells. I love the fact that without the Ritual Tag that means some serious thought and planning has to go into spell memorization selection. And if Identify is not chosen, then so be it, and trying to figure out what magic items are which found in a troll lair has to wait for a day, and that adds more tension into the game.
Cool. I’m just not only considering my own preference in these matters, but instead the preferences of the greater D&D playing community, and the overwhelming majority of them disagree with you.
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ModeratorThis thread has gotten off topic. This is not about whether Ritual Casting is good or not. This is a thought experiment to encourage ideas, not a 2+ page debate. If you want to debate a potential change, take it to a new thread.
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