For example, I think Staggering Smite would be a really useful and fun spell to use... if RAW didn't make the effects last for only one round. Is there any other spell that you feel falls short because it's missing something?
Honestly, it isn't quite pointless...but it's not far off. Your Action is one of the most precious resources you have. This grants you Advantage on your attack...but costs you your Action. So you're getting, for two Actions, two shots at succeeding your attack. Except, why not just do the attack twice...and then both dice you're rolling has a chance of succeeding? And that's best Cass scenario - it's Concentration, so the Action could easily be wasted by incoming damage.
There is a niche use for it as-is - if you really need a blow to land, say because you have very limited spell slots, then this can boost your chances. That you are forced to delay your attack for a round kind of flies against that sense of urgency to make it even more niche.
I think it would be useful if the Advantage lasted as long as you can maintain the spell and for the duration of the spell (which could be tweaked if a minute is too long). The problem is that would probably make it too powerful for a Cantrip, but as-is, it's kinda pointless since it's very niche and takes up a precious Cantrip slot.
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Silvery Barbs, I would remove the part of it that grants advantage and it would still be a solid 1st-level reaction spell without the negative stigma it has today.
Regarding Staggering Smite, the new version still lasts a round but it's full on Stun now which makes it much more reasonable despite the short duration.
A 5th-level spellslot to make something that lasts less than a day at best. Can't sell the thing without angering the vendor since it'll disappear shortly. Advanced materials that otherwise could be used by smiths/tinkers or by the Fabricate spell won't last long enough to be used in professions. Any artificer who might dream of conjuring up crafting components would have to select commonly available goods for his tinkering to complete before the Creation results evaporate.
I'm unsure how this warrants consuming an otherwise high-powered and limited spellslot.
I think more spells could be ritual spells. You could make them, instead of only taking 10 minutes to cast which some think is too short, make them 10 minutes a level to cast.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
There is nothing stopping you from burning a spell slot to cast a spell. Powerful spells like Leomund's SHOULD be burning a 3rd level slot, as that makes resource management that more interesting, and immersive, and hence, a better game.
Well, I never said there was anything stopping anyone from burning spell slots. Not sure where you’re going with that. As for “Leomund’s,” I presume you mean tiny hut and not secret chest. Is that correct? If so then the hut should have the R tag because it’s often most needed when the party has completely shot its load and hasn’t got the slot to spend. And as for secret chest, that’s a spell I think would get used more often if it had the R tag.
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
I've never had a point where Leomond's Secure Shelter was cast before the party had burned its slots, and Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages are more useful as scrolls you carry around in case you need a single casting than burning a slot.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
There is nothing stopping you from burning a spell slot to cast a spell. Powerful spells like Leomund's SHOULD be burning a 3rd level slot, as that makes resource management that more interesting, and immersive, and hence, a better game.
Well, I never said there was anything stopping anyone from burning spell slots. Not sure where you’re going with that. As for “Leomund’s,” I presume you mean tiny hut and not secret chest. Is that correct? If so then the hut should have the R tag because it’s often most needed when the party has completely shot its load and hasn’t got the slot to spend. And as for secret chest, that’s a spell I think would get used more often if it had the R tag.
I did indeed mean Hut. As for a group that has shot its load, getting rid of the Ritual tag improves every single one of those spells, because it now forces better gameplay and immersion, because resource management becomes more important. Suddenly the Wizard has to consider "Do I burn this last slot on a Fireball, or save it for tonight when we camp in the forest?"
In the old days I would have agreed with you. But the average 5e player apparently loathes resource management according to WotC’s research and countless examples of anecdotal evidence from these and other forums. That’s why apparently the average 5e table usually completely ignores pretty much all of the following:
Material spell component requirements
Food & Water requirements including Rations
Tracking ammunition
Consumable magic items that don’t include the phrase “potion of healing” in their name
Chapter 8 of the PHB
Half each of chapters 5, 6, and 8 of the DMG
And that’s not even a comprehensive list, just the examples that kept to mind. You wanna add more resource management to the game for people to handwave away and ignore? At least with the R tag there’s an in-game, RAW excuse.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
10 minutes is most meaningful, and especially 10 minutes/ level, in a properly run session. Any number of wandering monster/guard rolls can be made. The fact is though that the Ritual tag is an I-win button. Removing the Ritual tag entirely makes a number of spells far more interesting and balanced.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
I still say a bast time of 30 minutes and a Ritual added 20 + 10/level would be good. As to “better” familiars, I dunno. I mean, I don’t know if that’s a good idea for two reasons.
CR is pretty much a measure of supposed combat effectiveness, and familiars can’t attack, so I don’t know if it’s a valuable metric in this case.
Find familiar is already a really good spell, so good in fact that it’s prohibited at some tables. (Admittedly the only tables I ever heard of banning it were ones that also ignored Material component costs. Changing a familiar from one form to another is supposed to cost 10gp worth of specific Materials every time. If that gets handwaved, or if you just go by gp without actually tracking the specific components a PC could run out of, the spell can be pretty abusable.)
Actually quite the opposite. Nobody was low enough on HP or resource to need a rest.
I just can not see how removing the ritual tag makes hings better or even easier.
It doesn't. JustaFarmer has a very idiosyncratic play style that he thinks everyone should be following.
Where ritual spells really shine is highly conditional utility. Comprehend Languages is a great example. Unless you know you need it, you never, ever prep it. You probably wouldn't even learn it in the first place without the ritual tag. You get only so many spells to learn, and have to prep an even smaller subset, and things that are more often useful are going to win out. (There are games where this isn't the case, but they're unusual.)
You are going to say these are useless spells if they cost a spell slot?
Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
He said "any". I provided 3. You increased that to 4. Identify is a spell that is not that important, until suddenly it is very important. If a DM actually plays within the Encumbrance rules, Floating Disk is a big big deal when hauling coin out of a dungeon, or an unconscious party member. And I have had at least 3 different players that I can remember in the past 2 or 3 years have their PC's cast Alarm as a Ritual. At low levels, it is an incredibly useful spell, and 2 sessions ago it would saved the party a whole bunch of grief from a nasty wandering monster in the middle of the night.
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
For example, I think Staggering Smite would be a really useful and fun spell to use... if RAW didn't make the effects last for only one round. Is there any other spell that you feel falls short because it's missing something?
True Strike.
Honestly, it isn't quite pointless...but it's not far off. Your Action is one of the most precious resources you have. This grants you Advantage on your attack...but costs you your Action. So you're getting, for two Actions, two shots at succeeding your attack. Except, why not just do the attack twice...and then both dice you're rolling has a chance of succeeding? And that's best Cass scenario - it's Concentration, so the Action could easily be wasted by incoming damage.
There is a niche use for it as-is - if you really need a blow to land, say because you have very limited spell slots, then this can boost your chances. That you are forced to delay your attack for a round kind of flies against that sense of urgency to make it even more niche.
I think it would be useful if the Advantage lasted as long as you can maintain the spell and for the duration of the spell (which could be tweaked if a minute is too long). The problem is that would probably make it too powerful for a Cantrip, but as-is, it's kinda pointless since it's very niche and takes up a precious Cantrip slot.
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Magic Weapon/Elemental Weapon. Both would be viable choices if they didn't require concentration.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Tenser’s floating disk / floating disk. The restrictions on are ju-ust a little too tight to make it nearly as useful as it deserves to be.
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Silvery Barbs, I would remove the part of it that grants advantage and it would still be a solid 1st-level reaction spell without the negative stigma it has today.
Regarding Staggering Smite, the new version still lasts a round but it's full on Stun now which makes it much more reasonable despite the short duration.
Creation.
A 5th-level spellslot to make something that lasts less than a day at best. Can't sell the thing without angering the vendor since it'll disappear shortly. Advanced materials that otherwise could be used by smiths/tinkers or by the Fabricate spell won't last long enough to be used in professions. Any artificer who might dream of conjuring up crafting components would have to select commonly available goods for his tinkering to complete before the Creation results evaporate.
I'm unsure how this warrants consuming an otherwise high-powered and limited spellslot.
I agree with a 5th-level spellslot.
Tutuapp
I think more spells could be ritual spells.
You could make them, instead of only taking 10 minutes to cast which some think is too short, make them 10 minutes a level to cast.
The amount of time a ritual spell takes to cast is largely irrelevant. Change it to ten minutes per level of the spell would not actually cause a meaningful difference. Also, there's the matter of why is ten minutes (plus the spell's normal casting time) too short?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I have to disagree, I think dropping the Ritual tag is a bad idea. A 10-11 minute pause is not a problem for the most part, but if it were more like 20-mins+10/spell level (minimum of adding 30 minutes to the casting time for a 1st-level spell), then it starts to be a real decision to make l, especially once you start talking about 3rd-level spells or higher. At least it would be in most of the games I’ve been in and all the ones I run at any rate.
I mean, I had to beg for 3 sessions for the 70 minutes I needed to find myself a familiar, couldn’t get it until this past weekend when the monk needed an hour to dedicate a magic longsword we found, the artificer wanted to really dig through a room full of tools we found, and the rogue wanted to pick a particularly difficult lock from a few rooms back. If it wasn’t for the fact that everyone else also needed around an hour(ish) to do something my Wiz still wouldn’t have his familiar. If Ritual casting added 30-80 minutes onto the casting time for a spell, that would no longer be such a no-brainer. (And at that point they could drop the standard casting time for find familiar down to 30 minutes as a bonus boon.)
But if the Ritual tag went away completely that would leave some spells that already see limited use completely ignored by many tables. Niche spells like identify and Tenser’s floating disk for example, and that would be a shame.
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I can't think of any Ritual spell that would be worth taking if it stopped being a ritual.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Well, I never said there was anything stopping anyone from burning spell slots. Not sure where you’re going with that. As for “Leomund’s,” I presume you mean tiny hut and not secret chest. Is that correct? If so then the hut should have the R tag because it’s often most needed when the party has completely shot its load and hasn’t got the slot to spend. And as for secret chest, that’s a spell I think would get used more often if it had the R tag.
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Those three and find familiar are probably the only ones in the whole game that are worth a spell slot most of the time. Name three more. If you can find them that is.
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I've never had a point where Leomond's Secure Shelter was cast before the party had burned its slots, and Detect Magic and Comprehend Languages are more useful as scrolls you carry around in case you need a single casting than burning a slot.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
In the old days I would have agreed with you. But the average 5e player apparently loathes resource management according to WotC’s research and countless examples of anecdotal evidence from these and other forums. That’s why apparently the average 5e table usually completely ignores pretty much all of the following:
And that’s not even a comprehensive list, just the examples that kept to mind. You wanna add more resource management to the game for people to handwave away and ignore? At least with the R tag there’s an in-game, RAW excuse.
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What if FF could be cast in a base10 minutes(ritual ad 10minutes) and upcast to gain a better CR familiar? Go by tiers.
I am sorry about the group your in. It must have been a running battle to keep you from taking even a short rest. But those things happen.
I still say a bast time of 30 minutes and a Ritual added 20 + 10/level would be good. As to “better” familiars, I dunno. I mean, I don’t know if that’s a good idea for two reasons.
Actually quite the opposite. Nobody was low enough on HP or resource to need a rest.
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I just can not see how removing the ritual tag makes hings better or even easier.
It doesn't. JustaFarmer has a very idiosyncratic play style that he thinks everyone should be following.
Where ritual spells really shine is highly conditional utility. Comprehend Languages is a great example. Unless you know you need it, you never, ever prep it. You probably wouldn't even learn it in the first place without the ritual tag. You get only so many spells to learn, and have to prep an even smaller subset, and things that are more often useful are going to win out. (There are games where this isn't the case, but they're unusual.)
Oh, I am well aware of the value that spells like identify, anlarm, and floating disk can provide. In one campaign I’m DMing, the wizard cast alarm as a ritual last long rest, and when the party went hunting (because I do track food and water, ammo, components, all that stuff), they nabbed a 360 pound gator and if they had floating disk, getting it back to camp would’ve been much simpler for them.
But casters that learn their spells don’t ever learn them because they only get so many, therefore spells with niche applications get passed over. And most casters that prepare their spells only actually bother to do so when they expect to need them. But wizards on the other hand can learn every available spell potentially, so they’re more inclined to, especially if they get them on a scroll. And since they can cast them as Rituals without prepping them, they end up used more often. Without the R tag though… not so much.
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