I'm seeing some comments on this so I know I'm not alone but WTF is that new Path of the Carrion Raven in the new player pack from Grim Hollow? You can do all this at level 3:
Regrowing limbs AND 1d12+CON mod HP in 1 action (normally not able to do until the 7th level spell Resurrection)
Deal 6d10 damage or half on save (outshines Inflict Wound's 3d10 which does NOT do half damage. Also this is very likely 1 shots any boss monster at level 3)
Summon an Ankylosaurus
Make a weapon attack, deal an ADDITIONAL 5d6 Necrotic, and then gain Temp HP = to the Necrotic (what even to say to that at such a low level?)
Take a short rest in only 10 minutes AND gain temp HP from it
and more
I dont think these capabilities for a level 3 Barbarian were truly thought all the way through. Don't get me wrong its funny and im sure fun to play but this 1 class at level 3 is going to make the rest of the players in your party wish they picked something else since this Barb will be owning every single encounter essentially solo. IDK, I just dont see how this at all is balanced at this level.
It is third party content meant for a third party setting. Humblewood has the same issue with their subclasses. It should be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time though. These are maneuvers and you only get three of them and six points to spend. Regenerating a limb costs the entire six points and you can do no other maneuver until you have taken a long rest.
Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
I mean i absolutely agree, I never used 3rd party content before it became available on DnDB because I assumed there would be some semblance of balance. This 1 class seems to be wayyyy too cranked compared to the other 3rd party stuff though.
I dont think they are that broken if u take into account that u have to spend the "maneouver points", at level 3 u have 6 points and the maneouvers u mention cost 5-6 or more points so they could theoretically use one of those per long rest and thats it, no more features for them for an entire long rest. Its not broken but cerntainly is strong.
Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
I mean i absolutely agree, I never used 3rd party content before it became available on DnDB because I assumed there would be some semblance of balance. This 1 class seems to be wayyyy too cranked compared to the other 3rd party stuff though.
I am not fond of this particular third party publisher - from what I have seen of their content here on D&D their balance is consistently off, with a whole lot of their subclasses, spells, etc. feeling like mediocre homebrew where they got giddy about all their ideas, then forgot to edit to a more appropriate power level.
People seem to love them - and they certainly offer an aesthetic some players enjoy. Perhaps in a campaign where everyone is using their content, it would be fine - but it very clearly is not balanced to be ported into a homebrew world or world where other players are using the base 5e classes, spells, etc.
It is third party content meant for a third party setting. Humblewood has the same issue with their subclasses. It should be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time though. These are maneuvers and you only get three of them and six points to spend. Regenerating a limb costs the entire six points and you can do no other maneuver until you have taken a long rest.
by that logic every subclass in the Grim Hollow Player Pack should be nuts to butts. However:
College of Requiem is cool flavor and the "free life" with their Bardic Inspiration is great. But underpowered at level 6 minus compared to Eloquence or even Sword.
Blade Breaker is a cool extra choice compared to Battle Master but their maneuvers are incredibly underwhelming compared to Carrion's. Also it relies on your enemies using weapons and armor, almost useless again monsters like Dragons or anything else that has Natural weapons.
Oath of Zeal's Channel Divinity is OK but further abilities are extremely situational. Worst one of the bunch.
Misfortune Bringer: Probably runner up for the 2nd best of the bunch since it gives Rouge more to do. Not incredibly OP tho
Cleric Inquisition: Requires magic using enemies to be used frequently to justify choosing this domain. 6th level ability doesn't even counter spell, it just deal a little bit of damage. Also has Weapon attack abilities but no extra attack?
This is what I mean, the other subclasses are mostly well thought out and balanced but then Carrion overshadow everything else.
It is third party content meant for a third party setting. Humblewood has the same issue with their subclasses. It should be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time though. These are maneuvers and you only get three of them and six points to spend. Regenerating a limb costs the entire six points and you can do no other maneuver until you have taken a long rest.
by that logic every subclass in the Grim Hollow Player Pack should be nuts to butts. However:
College of Requiem is cool flavor and the "free life" with their Bardic Inspiration is great. But underpowered at level 6 minus compared to Eloquence or even Sword.
Blade Breaker is a cool extra choice compared to Battle Master but their maneuvers are incredibly underwhelming compared to Carrion's. Also it relies on your enemies using weapons and armor, almost useless again monsters like Dragons or anything else that has Natural weapons.
Oath of Zeal's Channel Divinity is OK but further abilities are extremely situational. Worst one of the bunch.
Misfortune Bringer: Probably runner up for the 2nd best of the bunch since it gives Rouge more to do. Not incredibly OP tho
Cleric Inquisition: Requires magic using enemies to be used frequently to justify choosing this domain. 6th level ability doesn't even counter spell, it just deal a little bit of damage. Also has Weapon attack abilities but no extra attack?
This is what I mean, the other subclasses are mostly well thought out and balanced but then Carrion overshadow everything else.
Not sure what logic you are trying to employ here but being underpowered compared to the eloquence bard says very little, considering it is arguably the most powerful bard subclass depending on what we are defining as 'powerful'. Requiem can buff a party member's attack to deal d6 necrotic damage, which is not nothing at level 3, and a d8 at 5th. Further, you get to prevent unconsciousness due to loss of hitpoints as a reaction. The necromancy cantrips aren't so spectacular, sure, but considering the setting being largely dealing with undead, you have Chill Touch being a deeply valuable cantrip and Toll the Dead is one of the better damage cantrips out there that is not available to the bard normally. Necrotic damage is not often resisted either. Out of over 750 creatures from the three main monster books, only 23 are immune and 28 resist necrotic damage. I have no idea what you are talking about but it is clear you do not value support and buffing features at all. Your swords bard comment is nonsense. The swords bard flourish is practically worthless until you hit level 14 and can just tack on damage for free. Before that, it gobbles up your inspiration just to be a much much worse fighter.
Since you have demonstrated an absolute absence of understanding in what makes bards amazing, I am going to assume the rest of your examples are also leaving much to be desired. Skip.
[REDACTED] all that bard gets is some cantrips but they do get a neat reaction. Which is also assuming the person who goes down has and hasnt expended your Bardic Inspiration and they didnt already use their reaction which also means they now have to:
Not use Inspiration to hit a missed attack because not dying is objectively better
and shouldn't use their reaction for anything for the same reason as before
The point being that this and the other subclasses in this book are lacking heavily compared to Carrion
[REDACTED] all that bard gets is some cantrips but they do get a neat reaction. Which is also assuming the person who goes down has and hasnt expended your Bardic Inspiration and they didnt already use their reaction which also means they now have to:
Not use Inspiration to hit a missed attack because not dying is objectively better
and shouldn't use their reaction for anything for the same reason as before
The point being that this and the other subclasses in this book are lacking heavily compared to Carrion
I'm not sure you are doing your position any favors by mocking me for giving a thoughtful and detailed analysis.
The requiem bards are given powerful cantrips, one of which is specifically overtuned for the setting in which it is given and neither of them are normally available to bards.
Players who have a reaction that gives them either rarely resisted additional damage or the ability to no-sell unconsciousness will have to make decisions on which is more valuable in any given situation. Someone who is one hit away from unconsciousness is less likely to use the extra damage and more likely to hold onto the ability to prevent unconsciousness. Not needing a very powerful use of inspiration does not mean it held no value. At level 3, which this feature is given, the bardic inspiration is amazing and it never really loses value considering how healing is used in live play; many healers wait for someone to drop, which potentially costs someone a turn. This addresses that directly and also unburdens the party healer to do other things, which I am sure is deeply appreciated by healers.
At level 3, there are not many uses for reactions and it is the action economy that gets the least attention throughout any class' level. Besides that, having options for reactions is not a bad thing and it is baffling that you think it is.
The great thing about inspiration is that subclass uses do not prevent normal use. A player holding inspiration can use it how they see fit. The player can use it either to boost attacks, checks, or saving throws as normal, or boost damage or prevent unconsciousness. You may not see value in that, but I think you are alone here and I also think that to say flourish is better is laughable.
I think I think we lost the plot here, none of these abilities from any of these Bard classes are even remotely in the same level as the carrion barbarian. That is the whole point. I was only bringing an examples about The Bard stuff because you made an essay about the one Bard example and ignored everything else.
I do not think a Bard getting two can trips is the same as summoning an Ankylosaurus level 3, if you think those are equivalent then I have no idea what to say to you
I think I think we lost the plot here, none of these abilities from any of these Bard classes are even remotely in the same level as the carrion barbarian. That is the whole point. I was only bringing an examples about The Bard stuff because you made an essay about the one Bard example and ignored everything else.
I do not think a Bard getting two can trips is the same as summoning an Ankylosaurus level 3, if you think those are equivalent then I have no idea what to say to you
Two things:
Your reason for including other subclasses in this discussion was to demonstrate that they were wildly underpowered compared to their Core Books counterparts while at the same time, they had overtuned the barbarian subclass. Where it concerns the bard subclass in comparison to the Core Books bard subclasses at least, this is demonstrably false as the subclass is very powerful and even more so in the setting for which it was made. Now that you have been twice proven incorrect, you are moving the goalposts to claim that the other class subclass options are not as powerful as the barbarian subclass. That was never part of my argument and I have no interest in arguing that new point.
The requiem bard gets more than just two cantrips for its third level feature.
People seem to love them - and they certainly offer an aesthetic some players enjoy. Perhaps in a campaign where everyone is using their content, it would be fine - but it very clearly is not balanced to be ported into a homebrew world or world where other players are using the base 5e classes, spells, etc.
From what I understand, this is true. I've not really gotten into Grim Hollow, but my DM was talking about it. The monsters in that setting are really turned up to 11. It's high on horror in general and body horror plays a big role. So the subclasses must be similarly turned up to 11 to survive.
Personally, I think that really makes me wonder the point. If you boost the monsters and the PCs both, it seems like you're just kind of back where you started, in terms of relative power, so if you really want the stuff to be scary, boost the monsters and leave the PCs alone. But, again, I've not actually played it, so I could be misunderstanding the way it works.
I again have no idea what youre going on about, I just know that extra cantrips are not on par with doing 6d10 damage at level 3 lmao. If you disagree I am wildly confused what game youre playing.
I again have no idea what youre going on about, I just know that extra cantrips are not on par with doing 6d10 damage at level 3 lmao. If you disagree I am wildly confused what game youre playing.
You would be less confused if you tried reading the arguments that you are debating against. I already stated I have no interest in comparing a bard to a barbarian and I don't know why you insist on doing so, given the typically diverging roles the two classes assume in play.
Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
Anyway... This remains the most relevant post in the entire thread and is the perfect sendoff post to let this thread fade into obscurity. +1
Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
Anyway... This remains the most relevant post in the entire thread and is the perfect sendoff post to let this thread fade into obscurity. +1
I thought I wasnt in your notifications anymore? Lol
I think an easy way to limit or fix this is that before level 5 or 6 you can’t use any ability that cost 5 or more points at once. After that it would be fine, maybe make the amount of points you have less than the list says. If you do that it fixes a lot of this and it is one of the only barbarians that doesn’t have a passive feature when you rage. You can run out of ammo like the battle master and just be your class without a subclass. Both the level 6 and 10 features don’t really do anything either.
Ehhh, not really. From the other subclasses that came with the Grim Hollow Player's Pack, all of them, except for Carrion Raven and Blade Breaker, range from ok to good in terms of regular 5e subclasses. Carrion Raven and Blade Breaker have so much more stuff to do than any other respective subclass of their class https://100001****/https://1921681254.mx/ .
I'm seeing some comments on this so I know I'm not alone but WTF is that new Path of the Carrion Raven in the new player pack from Grim Hollow? You can do all this at level 3:
I dont think these capabilities for a level 3 Barbarian were truly thought all the way through. Don't get me wrong its funny and im sure fun to play but this 1 class at level 3 is going to make the rest of the players in your party wish they picked something else since this Barb will be owning every single encounter essentially solo. IDK, I just dont see how this at all is balanced at this level.
It is third party content meant for a third party setting. Humblewood has the same issue with their subclasses. It should be noted that you can't do all of that at the same time though. These are maneuvers and you only get three of them and six points to spend. Regenerating a limb costs the entire six points and you can do no other maneuver until you have taken a long rest.
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Congratulations, you've learned why most of us pay WotC for content rather than relying primarily on third parties; a better baseline expectation of balancing and playtesting. Also Sturgeon's Law.
I mean i absolutely agree, I never used 3rd party content before it became available on DnDB because I assumed there would be some semblance of balance. This 1 class seems to be wayyyy too cranked compared to the other 3rd party stuff though.
I dont think they are that broken if u take into account that u have to spend the "maneouver points", at level 3 u have 6 points and the maneouvers u mention cost 5-6 or more points so they could theoretically use one of those per long rest and thats it, no more features for them for an entire long rest. Its not broken but cerntainly is strong.
I am not fond of this particular third party publisher - from what I have seen of their content here on D&D their balance is consistently off, with a whole lot of their subclasses, spells, etc. feeling like mediocre homebrew where they got giddy about all their ideas, then forgot to edit to a more appropriate power level.
People seem to love them - and they certainly offer an aesthetic some players enjoy. Perhaps in a campaign where everyone is using their content, it would be fine - but it very clearly is not balanced to be ported into a homebrew world or world where other players are using the base 5e classes, spells, etc.
by that logic every subclass in the Grim Hollow Player Pack should be nuts to butts. However:
This is what I mean, the other subclasses are mostly well thought out and balanced but then Carrion overshadow everything else.
Not sure what logic you are trying to employ here but being underpowered compared to the eloquence bard says very little, considering it is arguably the most powerful bard subclass depending on what we are defining as 'powerful'. Requiem can buff a party member's attack to deal d6 necrotic damage, which is not nothing at level 3, and a d8 at 5th. Further, you get to prevent unconsciousness due to loss of hitpoints as a reaction. The necromancy cantrips aren't so spectacular, sure, but considering the setting being largely dealing with undead, you have Chill Touch being a deeply valuable cantrip and Toll the Dead is one of the better damage cantrips out there that is not available to the bard normally. Necrotic damage is not often resisted either. Out of over 750 creatures from the three main monster books, only 23 are immune and 28 resist necrotic damage. I have no idea what you are talking about but it is clear you do not value support and buffing features at all. Your swords bard comment is nonsense. The swords bard flourish is practically worthless until you hit level 14 and can just tack on damage for free. Before that, it gobbles up your inspiration just to be a much much worse fighter.
Since you have demonstrated an absolute absence of understanding in what makes bards amazing, I am going to assume the rest of your examples are also leaving much to be desired. Skip.
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[REDACTED] all that bard gets is some cantrips but they do get a neat reaction. Which is also assuming the person who goes down has and hasnt expended your Bardic Inspiration and they didnt already use their reaction which also means they now have to:
The point being that this and the other subclasses in this book are lacking heavily compared to Carrion
I'm not sure you are doing your position any favors by mocking me for giving a thoughtful and detailed analysis.
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I think I think we lost the plot here, none of these abilities from any of these Bard classes are even remotely in the same level as the carrion barbarian. That is the whole point. I was only bringing an examples about The Bard stuff because you made an essay about the one Bard example and ignored everything else.
I do not think a Bard getting two can trips is the same as summoning an Ankylosaurus level 3, if you think those are equivalent then I have no idea what to say to you
Two things:
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From what I understand, this is true. I've not really gotten into Grim Hollow, but my DM was talking about it. The monsters in that setting are really turned up to 11. It's high on horror in general and body horror plays a big role. So the subclasses must be similarly turned up to 11 to survive.
Personally, I think that really makes me wonder the point. If you boost the monsters and the PCs both, it seems like you're just kind of back where you started, in terms of relative power, so if you really want the stuff to be scary, boost the monsters and leave the PCs alone. But, again, I've not actually played it, so I could be misunderstanding the way it works.
I again have no idea what youre going on about, I just know that extra cantrips are not on par with doing 6d10 damage at level 3 lmao. If you disagree I am wildly confused what game youre playing.
You would be less confused if you tried reading the arguments that you are debating against. I already stated I have no interest in comparing a bard to a barbarian and I don't know why you insist on doing so, given the typically diverging roles the two classes assume in play.
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Anyway... This remains the most relevant post in the entire thread and is the perfect sendoff post to let this thread fade into obscurity. +1
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I thought I wasnt in your notifications anymore? Lol
I think an easy way to limit or fix this is that before level 5 or 6 you can’t use any ability that cost 5 or more points at once. After that it would be fine, maybe make the amount of points you have less than the list says. If you do that it fixes a lot of this and it is one of the only barbarians that doesn’t have a passive feature when you rage. You can run out of ammo like the battle master and just be your class without a subclass. Both the level 6 and 10 features don’t really do anything either.
Ehhh, not really. From the other subclasses that came with the Grim Hollow Player's Pack, all of them, except for Carrion Raven and Blade Breaker, range from ok to good in terms of regular 5e subclasses. Carrion Raven and Blade Breaker have so much more stuff to do than any other respective subclass of their class https://100001****/ https://1921681254.mx/ .