Do they still face the 1/3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again?
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I love the Sear Undead change. The feature felt like a wasted ability in 2014 version, and one of the reasons I rarely played one.
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Do they still face the 1/3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again?
This is the text from the article:
The features of the Wish spell are largely similar in the 2024 Player’s Handbook, so the complications that can result from using it and the toll that it takes on the caster’s body and health really fit the mold of the impact on a mortal Cleric who is fully opening themselves up to the full might of their god’s power. After using Divine Intervention to cast Wish, you'll need to wait 2d4 Long Rests before using the feature again.
As we don't have the new text of the Wish spell I think it's safe to say that we'll have to wait, though it seems fairly clear that there are still going to be potential consequences to casting it and that they are in addition to simply not being able to cast it again for another 2d4 days.
EDIT: I think I misinterpreted the first sentence. We probably don't have to wait, as I now believe it says that Wish is largely unchanged from 2014.
I kinda like the 2014 Divine Intervention from a thematic standpoint, but I understand wanting to make it something more concrete and guaranteed to be useful (and it puts less strain on the DM to figure out the appropriate form of intervention).
Divine Intervention recharging after a single long rest, auto-success, and granting ANY 1-5th level spell without material component cost - is not a good idea.
Although I guess towns no longer need cemeteries since so many Raise Dead spells can now be cast for free... And why avoid death, knowing the Cleric can get a free Raise Dead DAILY.
What happens to existing characters when the new PHB drops?
They will still be there? Is there a more specific question you're trying to ask?
If you're asking about how the functionality of the site will change when the 2024 Core Rulebooks release or if characters that use species and subclasses that are being updated in those book will change automatically, I don't know the answer to that question. I do know it's something people want to know, but I have no insight into that.
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Do they still face the 1/3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again?
It sounds like it does IF you go outside the safe uses (but there are more of those now.) Crawford:
"Finally, at level 20, we have Greater Divine Intervention, which now lets you choose the Wish spell...as the Divine Intervention you're reaching out for, and gives you all the magical flexibility that Wish gives a spellcaster. And the Wish spell has been expanded in the Spells chapter; it has several new built-in options that do not risk you triggering the... (Kenreck: "Monkey's Paw!")... "yeah, the fatigue that Wish can impose on a person. And it has further guidance about what happens to you if you try to mess with gods, or worse, the Lady of Pain."
14:45 in the video. They wouldn't have brought up the safe uses if the whole thing was safe, so it sounds like you have to be as careful with a DI Wish as you do with an arcane one.
Divine Intervention recharging after a single long rest, auto-success, and granting ANY 1-5th level spell without material component cost - is not a good idea.
Although I guess towns no longer need cemeteries since so many Raise Dead spells can now be cast for free... And why avoid death, knowing the Cleric can get a free Raise Dead DAILY.
You’re assuming there’s a lot of level 10 clerics running around. Even then, raising someone won’t cure old age.
I understand that - any spell of the cleric list of 1-5th level, without having to supply the material component. So much for having to improvise because the cleric didn't take the exact spell needed today, they get it guaranteed for free. Need a costly Restoration, Revivify, Raise Dead, etc? No problem, one free casting DAILY. Why take care in combat, the cleric is now guaranteed to be able to bring the entire party back (for free) as long as the cleric survives (Raise Dead each day until entire party is back - for FREE). Murderer on the loose in town, who cares, the local cleric can bring the victim back to life FOR FREE once per day.
Oh look, now the cleric ALWAYS has a banishment ready to go. Not to mention Legend Lore, Planar Binding, Hallow, Dawn, Commune, Death Ward - guaranteed to have the right spell for the job, always at their fingertips (1 per day).
At least the old way had a 7 day cool down if it worked, not this, 1/day.
It's as if they went on a mission to feed muscle milk (in the words of another) to every class in 2024 (as if many of them weren't strong enough). All 5e needed was a few tweaks here and there, they went overboard. Weapon Mastery alone is going to make combat a nightmare and increase the amount of time it takes to resolve (5e already took too long). So much for 1 or 2 PCs holding off a chokepoint unless someone used an action and opposed roll to move them, now any NPC with a weapon can just move them for free.
In one campaign I play in, our low level (2-3rd level) characters entered and cleared a thieves' guild of 20 rogues (home at the time). That was an incredibly difficult series of fights, and we lost 1 character who got swarmed and we couldn't get to them in time. Now imagine that same fight were all 20 rogues have Weapon Mastery.
Some campaigns fight more NPCs than monsters, and with the power boosts given to every class in 2024, that's going to be far more difficult (and time consuming) to resolve - because all of those cool abilities will be used against the characters as well.
Yeah I have to agree divine intervention is going to be busted for a lot of stuff including the mundane of what do I spend my gp on now (no seriously what?)
its not exciting me
anyway the greater question I have is does it work in antimagic? or is it still like the UA playtest and it’s you as the cleric taking the magic action to cast a spell, which by RAW does not work in antimagic fields as spells cannot be cast in antimagic even if the casting of the spell does not use a spell slot. Before it was your divinity doing something, now it’s you casting a spell and if that now works in antimagic fields then all cleric spells work in antimagic fields.
I understand that - any spell of the cleric list of 1-5th level, without having to supply the material component. So much for having to improvise because the cleric didn't take the exact spell needed today, they get it guaranteed for free. Need a costly Restoration, Revivify, Raise Dead, etc? No problem, one free casting DAILY. Why take care in combat, the cleric is now guaranteed to be able to bring the entire party back (for free) as long as the cleric survives (Raise Dead each day until entire party is back - for FREE). Murderer on the loose in town, who cares, the local cleric can bring the victim back to life FOR FREE once per day.
Oh look, now the cleric ALWAYS has a banishment ready to go. Not to mention Legend Lore, Planar Binding, Hallow, Dawn, Commune, Death Ward - guaranteed to have the right spell for the job, always at their fingertips (1 per day).
At least the old way had a 7 day cool down if it worked, not this, 1/day.
It's as if they went on a mission to feed muscle milk (in the words of another) to every class in 2024 (as if many of them weren't strong enough). All 5e needed was a few tweaks here and there, they went overboard. Weapon Mastery alone is going to make combat a nightmare and increase the amount of time it takes to resolve (5e already took too long). So much for 1 or 2 PCs holding off a chokepoint unless someone used an action and opposed roll to move them, now any NPC with a weapon can just move them for free.
In one campaign I play in, our low level (2-3rd level) characters entered and cleared a thieves' guild of 20 rogues (home at the time). That was an incredibly difficult series of fights, and we lost 1 character who got swarmed and we couldn't get to them in time. Now imagine that same fight were all 20 rogues have Weapon Mastery.
Some campaigns fight more NPCs than monsters, and with the power boosts given to every class in 2024, that's going to be far more difficult (and time consuming) to resolve - because all of those cool abilities will be used against the characters as well.
Did your entire campaign collapse when your party first gained access to level 5 spells?
I understand that - any spell of the cleric list of 1-5th level, without having to supply the material component. So much for having to improvise because the cleric didn't take the exact spell needed today, they get it guaranteed for free. Need a costly Restoration, Revivify, Raise Dead, etc? No problem, one free casting DAILY. Why take care in combat, the cleric is now guaranteed to be able to bring the entire party back (for free) as long as the cleric survives (Raise Dead each day until entire party is back - for FREE). Murderer on the loose in town, who cares, the local cleric can bring the victim back to life FOR FREE once per day.
Oh look, now the cleric ALWAYS has a banishment ready to go. Not to mention Legend Lore, Planar Binding, Hallow, Dawn, Commune, Death Ward - guaranteed to have the right spell for the job, always at their fingertips (1 per day).
At least the old way had a 7 day cool down if it worked, not this, 1/day.
It's as if they went on a mission to feed muscle milk (in the words of another) to every class in 2024 (as if many of them weren't strong enough). All 5e needed was a few tweaks here and there, they went overboard. Weapon Mastery alone is going to make combat a nightmare and increase the amount of time it takes to resolve (5e already took too long). So much for 1 or 2 PCs holding off a chokepoint unless someone used an action and opposed roll to move them, now any NPC with a weapon can just move them for free.
In one campaign I play in, our low level (2-3rd level) characters entered and cleared a thieves' guild of 20 rogues (home at the time). That was an incredibly difficult series of fights, and we lost 1 character who got swarmed and we couldn't get to them in time. Now imagine that same fight were all 20 rogues have Weapon Mastery.
Some campaigns fight more NPCs than monsters, and with the power boosts given to every class in 2024, that's going to be far more difficult (and time consuming) to resolve - because all of those cool abilities will be used against the characters as well.
Clerics getting an extra 5th level spell each day isn't a big deal. Any sorcerer or wizard of that level can do that too.
Bypassing the casting time can be concerning - but they should fix the individual spells for that (like Hallow) rather than remove that functionality, because things like Raise Dead do need to be an option for a feature like this.
Divine Intervention, going by the article, just seems to effectively be a 5th level slot that doesn't need material components. Very nice, but I don't see it as game breaking?
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Divine Intervention, going by the article, just seems to effectively be a 5th level slot that doesn't need material components. Very nice, but I don't see it as game breaking?
The only potentially broken thing is that it takes an action no matter the original casting time of the spell. So spells like Hallow and Restoration and Raise Dead become usable in combat. Again though, most long-casting-time spells on the Cleric list aren't that bad as an action, so they should focus on nerfing the ones that aren't (again, like Hallow.)
I understand that - any spell of the cleric list of 1-5th level, without having to supply the material component. So much for having to improvise because the cleric didn't take the exact spell needed today, they get it guaranteed for free. Need a costly Restoration, Revivify, Raise Dead, etc? No problem, one free casting DAILY. Why take care in combat, the cleric is now guaranteed to be able to bring the entire party back (for free) as long as the cleric survives (Raise Dead each day until entire party is back - for FREE). Murderer on the loose in town, who cares, the local cleric can bring the victim back to life FOR FREE once per day.
Oh look, now the cleric ALWAYS has a banishment ready to go. Not to mention Legend Lore, Planar Binding, Hallow, Dawn, Commune, Death Ward - guaranteed to have the right spell for the job, always at their fingertips (1 per day).
At least the old way had a 7 day cool down if it worked, not this, 1/day.
It's as if they went on a mission to feed muscle milk (in the words of another) to every class in 2024 (as if many of them weren't strong enough). All 5e needed was a few tweaks here and there, they went overboard. Weapon Mastery alone is going to make combat a nightmare and increase the amount of time it takes to resolve (5e already took too long). So much for 1 or 2 PCs holding off a chokepoint unless someone used an action and opposed roll to move them, now any NPC with a weapon can just move them for free.
In one campaign I play in, our low level (2-3rd level) characters entered and cleared a thieves' guild of 20 rogues (home at the time). That was an incredibly difficult series of fights, and we lost 1 character who got swarmed and we couldn't get to them in time. Now imagine that same fight were all 20 rogues have Weapon Mastery.
Some campaigns fight more NPCs than monsters, and with the power boosts given to every class in 2024, that's going to be far more difficult (and time consuming) to resolve - because all of those cool abilities will be used against the characters as well.
So a few things here.
One, these are all player abilities. Yes, monsters and npcs might get access to some of them but they won't get access to them by default unless your DM does that.
Two, this combat seems awful. In lots of ways. Mainly that the DM gave the NPCs player levels, which is generally a no when building combatants.
Three, 5e combat is pretty quick by design. Some summon spells in the current iteration suck but by and large most things are "I do X, and it affects the thing by Y". The biggest piece of combat at any table is player speed. If you're saying that your table is slow at combat, that's a table issue and not a 5e issue.
I do think the Cleric got a huge power bump in general for what was probably the strongest class in 5e. I do think Divine Intervention as it is now is very strong on an already strong class. That said, I'm still ok with the change. As a DM, if you know you're going up against a very powerful Cleric, you know you have to bait that ability out. Enemies at level 10 aren't dumb and they typically have an idea of what a party is capable of because of the fame the party has acquired in its adventuring life. 5th tier casters are threats and you take out casters, but being fair now that all Clerics of any flavor could potentially be wearing heavy armor, that's also harder.
Divine Intervention, going by the article, just seems to effectively be a 5th level slot that doesn't need material components. Very nice, but I don't see it as game breaking?
I think on a small scale, being able to cast Prayer of Healing as an action - which now grants the benefits of a short rest - can be a bit cheesy. Hallow can significantly impact encounters.
On a larger scale, having every 10th level cleric in the world get a free Hallow/Raise Dead every day means:
1. Every graveyard is warded so the dead cannot be raised.
2. All entrances to walled towns/cities/castles will be hallowed, most likely with the tongues effect, with all the benefits and impact that may have. Walls and sewers are monitored more closely for anyone that circumvents the wards.
3. How do people's behavior change; how do laws change; how does the value of a life change when a bit of goodwill from the right person is all it takes to bring someone back to life?
4. How does war and siege tactics change when you can create fields of permanent energy vulnerability or silence? Fire vulnerability or silence in front of every wall out to fireball range?
Do they still face the 1/3 chance of never being able to cast Wish again?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I love the Sear Undead change. The feature felt like a wasted ability in 2014 version, and one of the reasons I rarely played one.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
This is the text from the article:
As we don't have the new text of the Wish spell I think it's safe to say that we'll have to wait, though it seems fairly clear that there are still going to be potential consequences to casting it and that they are in addition to simply not being able to cast it again for another 2d4 days.
EDIT: I think I misinterpreted the first sentence. We probably don't have to wait, as I now believe it says that Wish is largely unchanged from 2014.
I kinda like the 2014 Divine Intervention from a thematic standpoint, but I understand wanting to make it something more concrete and guaranteed to be useful (and it puts less strain on the DM to figure out the appropriate form of intervention).
Divine Intervention recharging after a single long rest, auto-success, and granting ANY 1-5th level spell without material component cost - is not a good idea.
Although I guess towns no longer need cemeteries since so many Raise Dead spells can now be cast for free... And why avoid death, knowing the Cleric can get a free Raise Dead DAILY.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
What makes you believe that?
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What happens to existing characters when the new PHB drops?
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D&D StaffThey will still be there? Is there a more specific question you're trying to ask?
If you're asking about how the functionality of the site will change when the 2024 Core Rulebooks release or if characters that use species and subclasses that are being updated in those book will change automatically, I don't know the answer to that question. I do know it's something people want to know, but I have no insight into that.
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It sounds like it does IF you go outside the safe uses (but there are more of those now.) Crawford:
"Finally, at level 20, we have Greater Divine Intervention, which now lets you choose the Wish spell...as the Divine Intervention you're reaching out for, and gives you all the magical flexibility that Wish gives a spellcaster. And the Wish spell has been expanded in the Spells chapter; it has several new built-in options that do not risk you triggering the... (Kenreck: "Monkey's Paw!")... "yeah, the fatigue that Wish can impose on a person. And it has further guidance about what happens to you if you try to mess with gods, or worse, the Lady of Pain."
14:45 in the video. They wouldn't have brought up the safe uses if the whole thing was safe, so it sounds like you have to be as careful with a DI Wish as you do with an arcane one.
You’re assuming there’s a lot of level 10 clerics running around.
Even then, raising someone won’t cure old age.
Right?! I swear it feels like the dev team was like "These are the changes that will make Lia want to play a cleric of pretty much any domain."
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It's any spell from the Cleric spell list. That was stated in the video. It's not any spell on any list.
I understand that - any spell of the cleric list of 1-5th level, without having to supply the material component. So much for having to improvise because the cleric didn't take the exact spell needed today, they get it guaranteed for free. Need a costly Restoration, Revivify, Raise Dead, etc? No problem, one free casting DAILY. Why take care in combat, the cleric is now guaranteed to be able to bring the entire party back (for free) as long as the cleric survives (Raise Dead each day until entire party is back - for FREE). Murderer on the loose in town, who cares, the local cleric can bring the victim back to life FOR FREE once per day.
Oh look, now the cleric ALWAYS has a banishment ready to go. Not to mention Legend Lore, Planar Binding, Hallow, Dawn, Commune, Death Ward - guaranteed to have the right spell for the job, always at their fingertips (1 per day).
At least the old way had a 7 day cool down if it worked, not this, 1/day.
It's as if they went on a mission to feed muscle milk (in the words of another) to every class in 2024 (as if many of them weren't strong enough). All 5e needed was a few tweaks here and there, they went overboard. Weapon Mastery alone is going to make combat a nightmare and increase the amount of time it takes to resolve (5e already took too long). So much for 1 or 2 PCs holding off a chokepoint unless someone used an action and opposed roll to move them, now any NPC with a weapon can just move them for free.
In one campaign I play in, our low level (2-3rd level) characters entered and cleared a thieves' guild of 20 rogues (home at the time). That was an incredibly difficult series of fights, and we lost 1 character who got swarmed and we couldn't get to them in time. Now imagine that same fight were all 20 rogues have Weapon Mastery.
Some campaigns fight more NPCs than monsters, and with the power boosts given to every class in 2024, that's going to be far more difficult (and time consuming) to resolve - because all of those cool abilities will be used against the characters as well.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Yeah I have to agree divine intervention is going to be busted for a lot of stuff including the mundane of what do I spend my gp on now (no seriously what?)
its not exciting me
anyway the greater question I have is does it work in antimagic? or is it still like the UA playtest and it’s you as the cleric taking the magic action to cast a spell, which by RAW does not work in antimagic fields as spells cannot be cast in antimagic even if the casting of the spell does not use a spell slot. Before it was your divinity doing something, now it’s you casting a spell and if that now works in antimagic fields then all cleric spells work in antimagic fields.
show us the wording WotC
Did your entire campaign collapse when your party first gained access to level 5 spells?
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Clerics getting an extra 5th level spell each day isn't a big deal. Any sorcerer or wizard of that level can do that too.
Bypassing the casting time can be concerning - but they should fix the individual spells for that (like Hallow) rather than remove that functionality, because things like Raise Dead do need to be an option for a feature like this.
Divine Intervention, going by the article, just seems to effectively be a 5th level slot that doesn't need material components. Very nice, but I don't see it as game breaking?
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
The only potentially broken thing is that it takes an action no matter the original casting time of the spell. So spells like Hallow and Restoration and Raise Dead become usable in combat. Again though, most long-casting-time spells on the Cleric list aren't that bad as an action, so they should focus on nerfing the ones that aren't (again, like Hallow.)
So a few things here.
One, these are all player abilities. Yes, monsters and npcs might get access to some of them but they won't get access to them by default unless your DM does that.
Two, this combat seems awful. In lots of ways. Mainly that the DM gave the NPCs player levels, which is generally a no when building combatants.
Three, 5e combat is pretty quick by design. Some summon spells in the current iteration suck but by and large most things are "I do X, and it affects the thing by Y". The biggest piece of combat at any table is player speed. If you're saying that your table is slow at combat, that's a table issue and not a 5e issue.
I do think the Cleric got a huge power bump in general for what was probably the strongest class in 5e. I do think Divine Intervention as it is now is very strong on an already strong class. That said, I'm still ok with the change. As a DM, if you know you're going up against a very powerful Cleric, you know you have to bait that ability out. Enemies at level 10 aren't dumb and they typically have an idea of what a party is capable of because of the fame the party has acquired in its adventuring life. 5th tier casters are threats and you take out casters, but being fair now that all Clerics of any flavor could potentially be wearing heavy armor, that's also harder.
I think on a small scale, being able to cast Prayer of Healing as an action - which now grants the benefits of a short rest - can be a bit cheesy. Hallow can significantly impact encounters.
On a larger scale, having every 10th level cleric in the world get a free Hallow/Raise Dead every day means:
1. Every graveyard is warded so the dead cannot be raised.
2. All entrances to walled towns/cities/castles will be hallowed, most likely with the tongues effect, with all the benefits and impact that may have. Walls and sewers are monitored more closely for anyone that circumvents the wards.
3. How do people's behavior change; how do laws change; how does the value of a life change when a bit of goodwill from the right person is all it takes to bring someone back to life?
4. How does war and siege tactics change when you can create fields of permanent energy vulnerability or silence? Fire vulnerability or silence in front of every wall out to fireball range?