i pay for a subscription just for the character sheets. I bought books I already own on here for use with said character sheets. If I can't use the 2014 ruleset, I have no use for any of it.
Nowhere on the item listing for any of the books does the word “rental” appear. So, from where are you getting this word? This is not a question about your opinion. I’d like you to give me a link where the term “rental” as opposed to “purchase” appears.If you can’t do that, then do the honorable thing and acknowledge that your opinion has no actual support for it in the marketplace - ANYWHERE in the item purchase workflow.
At the point of purchase it does not say you are "renting" the content. It says your purchase grants you access to the content. And not just in the compendium. Had they not reversed their earlier decision to just remove 2014 content from the character sheet and replace it with 2024 content they would have lost many many a subscriber at best. Many have cancelled their subscriptions or are withholding renewing them because they are still not satisfied with how things are working here since the introduction of the new ruleset into the platform. Would you rather D&D Beyond just die than have the humility not just not defend Wizards for once? There was every possibility that in jurisdictions like the EU they would have been facing a lawsuit. I will never understand those who just defend the every decision of a multibillion dollar corporation. Just because that corporation provides for you a product you enjoy does not mean they are infallible.
You both are being pedantic. You are both welcome to show where it says in this very legal notice where you were told you own a static version of what you have given money for:
2.1. License. Subject to your compliance with these Terms, Wizards provides you a limited, personal, non-exclusive, nontransferable, non-assignable, fully revocable license to use the Websites and Services solely for your individual and non-commercial use. Wizards may terminate or suspend any or all portions or features of the Websites, Games, or Services at any time and for any reason or for no reason with no liability to you. This license does not give you any ownership rights in the Websites, Games, or Services. Any rights you do acquire in the aforementioned will forever be owned by and inure to the benefit of Wizards, and as applicable, its successors and assigns.
EDIT for the EU friend:
7.8.European Union residents. Subject to the terms of any applicable device/platform via which you access Wizards' Games, you have the right to withdraw from a purchase of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items within 14 days of your purchase, without giving a reason. You hereby expressly acknowledge that you lose your right of withdrawal once the performance of our service has begun and your account is provided with access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items. You agree that the supply of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items and the performance of services begins immediately after you complete your purchase. Therefore, once access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items has been enabled on your account, the contract has been fully performed by us.
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'll post the part concerning EU law again since you failed to see it somehow:
7.8.European Union residents. Subject to the terms of any applicable device/platform via which you access Wizards' Games, you have the right to withdraw from a purchase of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items within 14 days of your purchase, without giving a reason. You hereby expressly acknowledge that you lose your right of withdrawal once the performance of our service has begun and your account is provided with access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items. You agree that the supply of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items and the performance of services begins immediately after you complete your purchase. Therefore, once access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items has been enabled on your account, the contract has been fully performed by us.
So yeah, you can wail and gnash about books or cars or whatever, but those are physical products and not digital services. This is a digital service and the terms are all easily available and rather clear.
I mean, they put it in all caps for you too.
7.5.Limited License. Your right to use any Virtual Items or Virtual Currency that you obtain is limited: you have a limited, non-exclusive, non-assignable, nontransferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use such Virtual Items and Virtual Currency solely for your personal entertainment and noncommercial use in connection with Games or Services. We, in our sole discretion, have the absolute right to manage, modify, substitute, replace, suspend, delete, or cancel, Virtual Currency and Virtual Items without any notice or liability to you, including deletion upon termination of your Account.
YOU ACKNOLWEDGE AND AGREE, NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, THAT YOU WILL HAVE NO CLAIM, RIGHT, TITLE, OWNERSHIP, OR PROPRIETARY INTEREST IN VIRTUAL CURRENCY OR VIRTUAL ITEMS TO WHICH YOU AQUIRE ACCESS REGARDLESS OF ANY CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE AND THAT WIZARDS WILL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY MANNER FOR THE DESTRUCTION, IMPAIRMENT, MODIFICAITON, OR OTHER DAMAGE OR LOSS OF ANY KIND CAUSED TO THE AFOREMENTIONED, INCLUDING THEIR DELETION UPON THE TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
Leaving aside your odd understanding of physical media ownership, while I have been sharing relevant parts of the TOS here, I have yet to see anyone share actual relevant EU laws concerning it that is in conflict. You can't just say "EU laws man!" and hope it makes sense. You can either trust that the company you are purchasing from (WotC) has done its due diligence concerning government regulations, or you can show which regulations they have violated and sue in a court of law to address the issue. Otherwise, you are just sorta pissing in the wind about what you think words mean.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
So far no one seems to have challenged this in an EU court so who knows but at the present time it doesn't change that you never bought a book on D&D Beyond, according to T&Cs you agreed to when you gave them your money and which have been repeatedly quoted here you only bought a license to access, not anything permanent
Oh, and as you brought up books the same applies to eBooks and Kindle purchases. Go read Amazon's terms and conditions
Interestingly, California are introducing a law to ban digital storefronts using terms like "buy" and "purchase". The legislation will force digital storefronts to tell customers they’re just getting a license to use the digital media, rather than suggesting they actually own it. There would be no need to bring in such legislation if you actually owned a digital product from a store. Physical products are one thing, but you do not own digital products like those provided via D&DBeyond.
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'll post the part concerning EU law again since you failed to see it somehow:
7.8.European Union residents. Subject to the terms of any applicable device/platform via which you access Wizards' Games, you have the right to withdraw from a purchase of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items within 14 days of your purchase, without giving a reason. You hereby expressly acknowledge that you lose your right of withdrawal once the performance of our service has begun and your account is provided with access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items. You agree that the supply of Virtual Currency or Virtual Items and the performance of services begins immediately after you complete your purchase. Therefore, once access to the Virtual Currency or Virtual Items has been enabled on your account, the contract has been fully performed by us.
So yeah, you can wail and gnash about books or cars or whatever, but those are physical products and not digital services. This is a digital service and the terms are all easily available and rather clear.
I mean, they put it in all caps for you too.
7.5.Limited License. Your right to use any Virtual Items or Virtual Currency that you obtain is limited: you have a limited, non-exclusive, non-assignable, nontransferable, non-sublicensable, revocable license to use such Virtual Items and Virtual Currency solely for your personal entertainment and noncommercial use in connection with Games or Services. We, in our sole discretion, have the absolute right to manage, modify, substitute, replace, suspend, delete, or cancel, Virtual Currency and Virtual Items without any notice or liability to you, including deletion upon termination of your Account.
YOU ACKNOLWEDGE AND AGREE, NOTWITHSTANDING ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY HEREIN, THAT YOU WILL HAVE NO CLAIM, RIGHT, TITLE, OWNERSHIP, OR PROPRIETARY INTEREST IN VIRTUAL CURRENCY OR VIRTUAL ITEMS TO WHICH YOU AQUIRE ACCESS REGARDLESS OF ANY CONSIDERATION OFFERED OR PAID IN EXCHANGE AND THAT WIZARDS WILL NOT BE LIABLE IN ANY MANNER FOR THE DESTRUCTION, IMPAIRMENT, MODIFICAITON, OR OTHER DAMAGE OR LOSS OF ANY KIND CAUSED TO THE AFOREMENTIONED, INCLUDING THEIR DELETION UPON THE TERMINATION OF YOUR ACCOUNT.
Did you not even bother to read what I said?
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content.
I said nothing about cars or books.
And nothing in what you are quoting goes anywhere towards addressing EU law that protects consumers when being sold online content .
Your first quote is completely irrelevant to this point.
Your next one would have a hard time holding up in a European court.
Why do you figure Wizards reversed its decision when they had initially decided they were just going to dump all the 2014 content into the compendium? Even though the very day prior to the release of the new PHB a purchase of the old one guaranteed access to its contents in the toolkit?
The day before they were going to take away that access they were selling that access.
In a European court their disclaimer would not hold up to allow them to just lie and take someone's money a day before the utility that person had purchased would be taken away from them.
Many subscribers here were demanding refunds. Wizards knew if it had gone to court in Europe they would not have just wiped the floor with their customers. Because Europe isn't the US where corporations or anyone with money enough can just do what they want. It's extraordinary to me how people consider themselves to be oh-so-radical in their views. Only to show that really their views mirror those of every other champion defender of capitalism at its most crass and gross.
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
The day before the 2024 PHB dropped on this site purchasing the old PHB guaranteed you access to its contents in the toolkit.
You are deluded if you honestly believe Wizards would have had a case in Europe having to prove the disclaimers alone permit them to sell something and take it away the very next day.
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
Leaving aside your odd understanding of physical media ownership, while I have been sharing relevant parts of the TOS here, I have yet to see anyone share actual relevant EU laws concerning it that is in conflict. You can't just say "EU laws man!" and hope it makes sense. You can either trust that the company you are purchasing from (WotC) has done its due diligence concerning government regulations, or you can show which regulations they have violated and sue in a court of law to address the issue. Otherwise, you are just sorta pissing in the wind about what you think words mean.
Answer honestly:
If Wizards decided Beyond was just not profitable enough and ultimately decided to shut it down and you were not in any way going to be compensated for all that had you spent here you would believe that is perfectly acceptable?
So just going to keep intoning the terms of service as a mantra without trying to understand how highly illegal it would it be in the EU to take someone's money one day and literally the very next day take away from them what they had just paid for.
I think someone a lot smarter and more talented than me, (ok, im just lazy) should homebrew all the 2014 content and label it "legacy". Then we can enable homebrew content and select the legacy domains, feats and spells :)
Or Beyond can just make a toggle like they have for Critical Role, Drakkenheim, Humblewood, Grim Hollow, Kobold Press, MCDM, Minecraft, Rick and Morty
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
Leaving aside your odd understanding of physical media ownership, while I have been sharing relevant parts of the TOS here, I have yet to see anyone share actual relevant EU laws concerning it that is in conflict. You can't just say "EU laws man!" and hope it makes sense. You can either trust that the company you are purchasing from (WotC) has done its due diligence concerning government regulations, or you can show which regulations they have violated and sue in a court of law to address the issue. Otherwise, you are just sorta pissing in the wind about what you think words mean.
Answer honestly:
If Wizards decided Beyond was just not profitable enough and ultimately decided to shut it down and you were not in any way going to be compensated for all that had you spent here you would believe that is perfectly acceptable?
As this is not my first rodeo with paying for WotC-run digital services that got mothballed.....yes. I know what I have paid for and if it all went away tomorrow I would have gotten my money's worth out of the service over the time I have used it.
It is 2024. If you are adult enough to make online purchases, you are are also adult enough to know what you are buying and are able to make the judgement that it is worth it or not if the digital service vanishes.
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
The day before the 2024 PHB dropped on this site purchasing the old PHB guaranteed you access to its contents in the toolkit.
You are deluded if you honestly believe Wizards would have had a case in Europe having to prove the disclaimers alone permit them to sell something and take it away the very next day.
I never said there wouldn't be a case to be made in Europe, I simply said that no one has tried it yet and until they do we're living in a reality where we don't own the stuff we purchase on most websites. Law is after all based on precedent and if there's no precedent set by the EU courts then we're at the mercy of what US lawyers decide. I genuinely do look forward to someone taking (probably Amazon or Apple) to court over ownership of digital assets but until it happens I'm not going to stamp my foot and pretend I live in a world where the law already protects me and instead be resigned to the fact my D&D Beyond books are at the whim of WotC
EDIT: You also don't have to work very hard to imagine the defences that will be used and sound reasonable. "We can't afford servers forever so sooner or later we need the option to turn things off", "We need to be able to issue software updates or errata without asking every single person every time" are just two. Don't forget that any discussion around this in court wouldn't just be D&D Beyond, it would be the entire total of eBooks ever sold, computer games and MMOs, apps on phones, and dozens of other online services that blur the border between ownership and licensing
As this is not my first rodeo with paying for WotC-run digital services that got mothballed.....yes. I know what I have paid for and if it all went away tomorrow I would have gotten my money's worth out of the service over the time I have used it.
It is 2024. If you are adult enough to make online purchases, you are are also adult enough to know what you are buying and are able to make the judgement that it is worth it or not if the digital service vanishes.
Well we are all adults here. But some of us still can't quite fathom how in Europe you would not get away with selling an online service to someone then taking it away literally the very next day. Also: I have my doubts you'd simply shrug off this site's demise. Wizards' constant defenders seem to spend half their waking hours here. And most of them defending Wizards and not even bloody well playing the game.
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
The day before the 2024 PHB dropped on this site purchasing the old PHB guaranteed you access to its contents in the toolkit.
You are deluded if you honestly believe Wizards would have had a case in Europe having to prove the disclaimers alone permit them to sell something and take it away the very next day.
I never said there wouldn't be a case to be made in Europe, I simply said that no one has tried it yet and until they do we're living in a reality where we don't own the stuff we purchase on most websites. Law is after all based on precedent and if there's no precedent set by the EU courts then we're at the mercy of what US lawyers decide. I genuinely do look forward to someone taking (probably Amazon or Apple) to court over ownership of digital assets but until it happens I'm not going to stamp my foot and pretend I live in a world where the law already protects me and instead be resigned to the fact my D&D Beyond books are at the whim of WotC
Only time will tell. But I would not have wanted to be Wizards had they not changed course and had found themselves up against the Digital Services Act and particularly where it concerns consumer/user rights when it comes to online marketplaces.
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i pay for a subscription just for the character sheets. I bought books I already own on here for use with said character sheets. If I can't use the 2014 ruleset, I have no use for any of it.
EDIT for the EU friend:
I think you need to go and look up the definition of a license to use a product because Mongoose has literally just shown you the terms and conditions that says you didn't purchase a copy, you don't own anything on this site and they can take away or change your access at any time. And it's nothing like your rather stupid porche analogy, you actually own a car, what it is exactly like is buying acces to an online computer game where a few years later they decide you can no longer play unless you install the new update. Both that computer game and D&D Beyond only ever sold you access, not an actual product. You're more than welcome to throw your toys out your pram and refuse to ever use the site again but that's exactly what you signed up for when you ticked the "I've read the terms and conditions" box without actually reading the terms and conditions
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content. I ain't throwing toys out of a pram. That behavior more accurately describes those who see Wizards as infallible and who spend half their waking hours defending their every decision no matter how many of their subscribers or those in the broader table-top community they tick off because you can't begin to fathom a multibillion dollar corporation that provides you a product you are tethered to ain't saints.
I'll post the part concerning EU law again since you failed to see it somehow:
So yeah, you can wail and gnash about books or cars or whatever, but those are physical products and not digital services. This is a digital service and the terms are all easily available and rather clear.
I mean, they put it in all caps for you too.
I'm not defending anything, I'm simply pointing out the reality of what we purchased; a license to use certain online assets on the D&D Beyond site and app and not ownership of those assets or a guarantee of those assets remaining unchanging. Whether I like it or not is irrelevant, I read the T&Cs and clicked the button saying that's what I agreed to, and over the years I've experienced far too many online products either change or simply stop all together to be under any illusions that WotC are alone or even unusual in these practices
When you buy a hard copy book, you are similarly not buying ownership of the words in that book. We are not discussing an MMO here, or even any online single player game.
How far the license functions should WotC simply decide to shut down all services is unclear, but their wording and what the EU regs actually say applies in reality are not necessarily the same.
Leaving aside your odd understanding of physical media ownership, while I have been sharing relevant parts of the TOS here, I have yet to see anyone share actual relevant EU laws concerning it that is in conflict. You can't just say "EU laws man!" and hope it makes sense. You can either trust that the company you are purchasing from (WotC) has done its due diligence concerning government regulations, or you can show which regulations they have violated and sue in a court of law to address the issue. Otherwise, you are just sorta pissing in the wind about what you think words mean.
So far no one seems to have challenged this in an EU court so who knows but at the present time it doesn't change that you never bought a book on D&D Beyond, according to T&Cs you agreed to when you gave them your money and which have been repeatedly quoted here you only bought a license to access, not anything permanent
Oh, and as you brought up books the same applies to eBooks and Kindle purchases. Go read Amazon's terms and conditions
Interestingly, California are introducing a law to ban digital storefronts using terms like "buy" and "purchase". The legislation will force digital storefronts to tell customers they’re just getting a license to use the digital media, rather than suggesting they actually own it. There would be no need to bring in such legislation if you actually owned a digital product from a store. Physical products are one thing, but you do not own digital products like those provided via D&DBeyond.
Did you not even bother to read what I said?
I think Mongoose needs to go and read European law which aggressively favors consumers when it comes to their making purchases that provide them access to online content.
I said nothing about cars or books.
And nothing in what you are quoting goes anywhere towards addressing EU law that protects consumers when being sold online content .
Your first quote is completely irrelevant to this point.
Your next one would have a hard time holding up in a European court.
Why do you figure Wizards reversed its decision when they had initially decided they were just going to dump all the 2014 content into the compendium? Even though the very day prior to the release of the new PHB a purchase of the old one guaranteed access to its contents in the toolkit?
The day before they were going to take away that access they were selling that access.
In a European court their disclaimer would not hold up to allow them to just lie and take someone's money a day before the utility that person had purchased would be taken away from them.
Many subscribers here were demanding refunds. Wizards knew if it had gone to court in Europe they would not have just wiped the floor with their customers. Because Europe isn't the US where corporations or anyone with money enough can just do what they want. It's extraordinary to me how people consider themselves to be oh-so-radical in their views. Only to show that really their views mirror those of every other champion defender of capitalism at its most crass and gross.
So.....pissing in the wind then? Fair enough.
The day before the 2024 PHB dropped on this site purchasing the old PHB guaranteed you access to its contents in the toolkit.
You are deluded if you honestly believe Wizards would have had a case in Europe having to prove the disclaimers alone permit them to sell something and take it away the very next day.
Answer honestly:
If Wizards decided Beyond was just not profitable enough and ultimately decided to shut it down and you were not in any way going to be compensated for all that had you spent here you would believe that is perfectly acceptable?
So just going to keep intoning the terms of service as a mantra without trying to understand how highly illegal it would it be in the EU to take someone's money one day and literally the very next day take away from them what they had just paid for.
I think someone a lot smarter and more talented than me, (ok, im just lazy) should homebrew all the 2014 content and label it "legacy". Then we can enable homebrew content and select the legacy domains, feats and spells :)
Or Beyond can just make a toggle like they have for Critical Role, Drakkenheim, Humblewood, Grim Hollow, Kobold Press, MCDM, Minecraft, Rick and Morty
As this is not my first rodeo with paying for WotC-run digital services that got mothballed.....yes. I know what I have paid for and if it all went away tomorrow I would have gotten my money's worth out of the service over the time I have used it.
It is 2024. If you are adult enough to make online purchases, you are are also adult enough to know what you are buying and are able to make the judgement that it is worth it or not if the digital service vanishes.
I never said there wouldn't be a case to be made in Europe, I simply said that no one has tried it yet and until they do we're living in a reality where we don't own the stuff we purchase on most websites. Law is after all based on precedent and if there's no precedent set by the EU courts then we're at the mercy of what US lawyers decide. I genuinely do look forward to someone taking (probably Amazon or Apple) to court over ownership of digital assets but until it happens I'm not going to stamp my foot and pretend I live in a world where the law already protects me and instead be resigned to the fact my D&D Beyond books are at the whim of WotC
EDIT: You also don't have to work very hard to imagine the defences that will be used and sound reasonable. "We can't afford servers forever so sooner or later we need the option to turn things off", "We need to be able to issue software updates or errata without asking every single person every time" are just two. Don't forget that any discussion around this in court wouldn't just be D&D Beyond, it would be the entire total of eBooks ever sold, computer games and MMOs, apps on phones, and dozens of other online services that blur the border between ownership and licensing
Well we are all adults here. But some of us still can't quite fathom how in Europe you would not get away with selling an online service to someone then taking it away literally the very next day. Also: I have my doubts you'd simply shrug off this site's demise. Wizards' constant defenders seem to spend half their waking hours here. And most of them defending Wizards and not even bloody well playing the game.
Only time will tell. But I would not have wanted to be Wizards had they not changed course and had found themselves up against the Digital Services Act and particularly where it concerns consumer/user rights when it comes to online marketplaces.