I think Amazon has reclassified D&D -- the 2024 PHB doesn't show up in the Books section (including the best sellers list), but does show up in the Toys and Games section (I cannot figure out which subsection). If people relying on Amazon statistics haven't adjusted, they would get nonsensically low sales numbers.
I pointed this out on a post earlier, and got told I didn't know what I was talking about. Glad someone else noticed that Amazon did this
So bookscan only take sales froM dedicated bookshops, hobby/game shops do not report sales to it, so that 4000 copies ignores all hobby shops and game shops. In addition it does not take into account sales made direct from the wizards website or here on DnD beyond. For instance 3000 copies where sold at gencon alone.
“The English language version of the 2024 Player’s Handbook alone achieved in just one month what took nearly two years for the 2014 edition across all language versions available in that timeframe,” she said in a recent video interview. Suffice it to say, therefore, that the new rules are plenty popular, so much so that Wizards has already ordered a second printing.
“This is a huge, kind of unprecedented print run for us,” she added. “I felt that we had aggressively planned for player demand, and the player demand has exceeded it.”
Nevertheless, stock remains in good supply. Polygon called about a dozen retailers in Illinois, Wisconsin, Arizona, California, Georgia, and Washington. All reported having the new book in decent quantities for their customers on Tuesday. Only two stores in one state, hurricane-ravaged Florida, said they were currently out of stock.
But while that initial print run has kept shelves full at local retailers — and on Amazon — big-box stores like Walmart and Target won’t see their copies until later this year or early 2025. Localizations of Player’s Handbook (2024) will also begin to reach those markets in the same time frame, with copies in French, Italian, German, and Spanish all currently in production.
Lanzillo said that based on demand for the Player’s Handbook (2024), her team at Wizards has already ordered a second batch of the Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024) as well. That book won’t hit shelves until Oct. 29, when a special collectible version becomes available at local retailers first.
Every single store that I know (and I know many!) tell me they are selling more D&D 2024 books than any before. Digital sales are through the roof. Folks seem to be zealously strange about needing attention when they talk about this stuff, wow, just wow. It's crazy the amount of folks who want attention and don't get their facts straight, or just do the most bare level of search.
To echo this, I spend my weekends at Barnes and Noble reading. About a month ago, they finally got enough PHBs on the shelf that the shelf doesn't look like swiss cheese after a few days of people scooping them up. I have never seen this store have to restock books so much. Even Sarah Maas books don't fly off the shelf like these have been here. When it first was released, the 2024 PHB was sold out a lot. And here at least, it isn't only new, young players picking it up. Most of the people I have seen swipe one of these books [Redacted] was old enough to look like my dad.
Sales don't mean much in a hobby in which only one person need own the rules for others to play. It could be 2024 is unprecedentedly popular and will be played at more tables than 2014 ever was! It could be copies of the books outsell the previous edition and even earlier editions but that these were more often played with only one person owning a copy of the rules and sales then give no indication of their comparable popularity. It could just be more and more people are buying the books. Buying does not equate to playing. That requires others to play with. Look at all the people who collect minis and rulebooks and supplementary rulebooks for Warhammer without their having ever played a game of Warhammer! Many are now buying two copies for themselves or even three if they are buying a copy of the books with the regular covers then a copy of the books with the alternative covers then a digital copy ... and this trend gives us little indication of how popular the game is. Many in the hobby have shelves upon shelves of game books that never see time at a table. Sales tell us how well something is selling. Little else. We aren't clairvoyants capable of seeing what every group is playing but the next best thing is going to be seeing how 2024 competes with 2014 or even other games at conventions and at game stores.
Research was done back in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s that showed that about 33% of the population were vocal conservatives. That is they were slow to change and vocal about not wanting to change. About 16% were vocal “liberals”. That is they welcomed change, were quick to move into new things and were vocal about the new benefits etc. I found the same to be true when I worked as a technology coordinator. About 1/3 of the folks were very reluctant to work with any new tech until it was well tested and weren’t too happy even then. About 1/6 of the folks were either the among the first to try things or had already tried them on their own. Once that initial sixth had worked out the kinks they were happy to pass it down to the middle 51% who were now willing to learn at least the basics. Only once they were proficient would the conservatives third allow themselves to be dragged into the new stuff. I suspect this is much the same.. in the days before the 2025 stuff started coming out the noise where was roughly 2:1 against - exactly what I expected. Now that we have had time to work with it I’m not surprised that many/most folks are picking up copies and starting to play with it. Like any other piece of software it has a few kinks but once you get used to them it’s fine. For those coming into the game it’s easy enough to use and really every player should have the PHB. The MM and DMG are really for the DM so I would expect smaller sales figures there. I know at my table I was an early bird and, because I’m one of the DMs, I made shared the digital copy to the table. Now other folks at the table are picking up their own digital or hard copies.
You are kind of making my point for me: more and more people are buying books they technically don't need. Not every player requires his or her own copy of the PHB. Many if not even most tables back in the day had the one copy between them. I have played in a number of 2014 games since 2014 and am even now playing in a 2024 one; I own neither PHB. It remains doable for a DM to run a game for others and for those others to never have to even pick up a copy of it. I played in a 5E game that started during COVID run by someone who wanted at least one veteran player at the table when he introduced the other two to the hobby and neither of them ever needed to even open up a copy of the PHB in what was a campaign that lasted three and a half years. A DM versed enough in the rules can manage quite easily without his or her players having read the rules. Or even having the rules at hand. Some DMs won't even have a copy of the rules at their table. Favoring rulings as they do over having to look up every little thing to make sure something is done 'right.' Countless are the videos on this very subject in which DMs talk about what they bring with them to run a game and often the rules are not among what they bring. Their notes. The adventure/module if it's a published one. Maybe a supplement of some sort. Something with random tables. Many leave the rules at home. I have used multiple game systems for running term-long campaigns for school children of various grades and would never have expected each and every student to read the rules and only ever had a copy of the rules should I have felt I needed to consult them.
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Indeed. If you go by convention tables, the most popular games in the world right now are Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu and Blades in the Dark. I find that...both interesting and kind of shocking. I mean, Shadowdark I can kind get, its the new shiny. Call of Cthulhu has this big convention following for several years now and I'm always taken back by it, it's such a niche thing, yet so popular. The big mystery is Blades in the Dark. I mean its a cool game, but seeing so many tables dedicated to it is surprising. Talk about extremely niche.
D&D is also very popular, but only at select conventions. The most interesting thing about it is what people are running. The most common thing you see at conventions is still the starter kits. Essentials Kit, Mines and the Stranger Things one.
But D&D is the "icebreaker ship" creating a new path. Thanks this the hobby is known by more people and later some players may dare to try other titles.
I live in a relatively small city with only one comic-shop, and the owner wants to retire. If the shop is closed then I will can't buy in other place. There are players of Magic: the Gathering and other card games and wargames but I am afraid I'm the only fan in town and nobody else has bought a TTRPG book but me.
Hasbro doesn't worry so much about to sell more TTRPGs but to sell D&D products, and they aren't the same thing. Now Hasbro seems to be more focused into selling "premium mode" toys, because children would rather cheaper toys or videogames. The franchise is earning brand power but it needs time (let's remember before the Marvel cinematic universe the action-live productions were a bomb until trilogy of Blade the vampire-hunter).
On top of all the sales figures, the fact that we have a conveyor of new books being announced well up to the end of the year, says that sales have been good enough that they're going to keep rolling instead of re-evaluating the situation.
My favorite part of reading back through this thread is that it started with "Sales are bad so 2024 is a failure!" and now it is, "Just because it is selling well doesn't mean people are playing it!".
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Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Indeed. If you go by convention tables, the most popular games in the world right now are Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu and Blades in the Dark. I find that...both interesting and kind of shocking. I mean, Shadowdark I can kind get, its the new shiny. Call of Cthulhu has this big convention following for several years now and I'm always taken back by it, it's such a niche thing, yet so popular. The big mystery is Blades in the Dark. I mean its a cool game, but seeing so many tables dedicated to it is surprising. Talk about extremely niche.
D&D is also very popular, but only at select conventions. The most interesting thing about it is what people are running. The most common thing you see at conventions is still the starter kits. Essentials Kit, Mines and the Stranger Things one.
I think there is a correlation between these: shadowdark and Call of Cthulhu are far more lethal, and work for that reason likely better in convention scenarios. Blades in the Dark, i have no real reference, but i think it is also well suited for episodic play? So, all of them are suited for short term play, one shots. And this also explains why the starter kits are there, they are short.
Meanwhile, most people who want to play D&D are looking for a long term campaign to build character story, more so than a quick one-shot for the pure gameplay part.
This means, these convention plays are not about popularity in home games, but about how popular they are to play at a convention.
Like the difference between eating at a sport game stadium watching with a lot of strangers, and cooking at home to watch some sports with friends.
My favorite part of reading back through this thread is that it started with "Sales are bad so 2024 is a failure!" and now it is, "Just because it is selling well doesn't mean people are playing it!".
I never once in this thread suggested sales were 'bad.' Some might have. But please don't lump everyone in together who is now making the point that how many books are sold gives little indication of how many people are playing it.
And no one has suggested no one is playing it. People obviously are. I even said:
It could be 2024 is unprecedentedly popular and will be played at more tables than 2014 ever was!
That is hardly questioning whether or not anyone is playing it.
My main points simply are if you have bought 2 x or 3 x copies of the books—any combination of physical with regular covers, physical with alternative covers, or a digital copy—that can give the false impression that is more than one person playing and if more people than ever are buying the books when in the past tables often shared a copy between them there is no telling if its just consumer trends or increased popularity when comparing these things.
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Indeed. If you go by convention tables, the most popular games in the world right now are Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu and Blades in the Dark. I find that...both interesting and kind of shocking. I mean, Shadowdark I can kind get, its the new shiny. Call of Cthulhu has this big convention following for several years now and I'm always taken back by it, it's such a niche thing, yet so popular. The big mystery is Blades in the Dark. I mean its a cool game, but seeing so many tables dedicated to it is surprising. Talk about extremely niche.
Conventions are very receptive to the local scene. If the local scene plays shadowdark, there'll be shadowdark.
I tried to check my local convention's past schedules, but they're not up anymore. Nonetheless, they have an entire track for D&D Adventurer's League. (And not a lot of D&D outside that.) Meanwhile, in the regular RPG track, I believe the biggest grouping is Powered by the Apocalypse games. Pretty sure I've never seen Shadowdark, and few, if any, OSR games at all. You're more likely to see 1e, which usually has a slot or two.
As for Blades in the Dark, it's pretty successful. It can't really be called the new hotness in its part of the RPG universe, since it's 8 years old, but it's clearly got an audience. (It even got optioned for development into a TV series, although, like most options, likely nothing will come of it.) Is it more popular than Shadowdark? Could well be, but there's no way to tell. (And also eight years of growth vs recent release would make comparisons weak even if one actually had numbers.) It's also a good con game -- you can get players up to speed very quickly, and the heist structure works well for one-offs.
Niche? Perhaps, but so is Shadowdark. Indeed, almost all non D&D games are niche. (Pathfinder and Vampire are likely the only ones that might not be.)
On top of all the sales figures, the fact that we have a conveyor of new books being announced well up to the end of the year, says that sales have been good enough that they're going to keep rolling instead of re-evaluating the situation.
It doesn't say much, really. They'll have had those books planned and worked on from before the release. It would have taken a truly abysmal performance for them to abandon those plans. Even then, given they'd already done part of the investment and the compatibility, they'd probably just go ahead anyway.
If they cancelled them, then I'd really be freaking.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Indeed. If you go by convention tables, the most popular games in the world right now are Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu and Blades in the Dark. I find that...both interesting and kind of shocking. I mean, Shadowdark I can kind get, its the new shiny. Call of Cthulhu has this big convention following for several years now and I'm always taken back by it, it's such a niche thing, yet so popular. The big mystery is Blades in the Dark. I mean its a cool game, but seeing so many tables dedicated to it is surprising. Talk about extremely niche.
D&D is also very popular, but only at select conventions. The most interesting thing about it is what people are running. The most common thing you see at conventions is still the starter kits. Essentials Kit, Mines and the Stranger Things one.
I think there is a correlation between these: shadowdark and Call of Cthulhu are far more lethal, and work for that reason likely better in convention scenarios. Blades in the Dark, i have no real reference, but i think it is also well suited for episodic play? So, all of them are suited for short term play, one shots. And this also explains why the starter kits are there, they are short.
Meanwhile, most people who want to play D&D are looking for a long term campaign to build character story, more so than a quick one-shot for the pure gameplay part.
This means, these convention plays are not about popularity in home games, but about how popular they are to play at a convention.
Like the difference between eating at a sport game stadium watching with a lot of strangers, and cooking at home to watch some sports with friends.
Great points. On top of that, many people who are wanting to play D&D probably (hopefully) are already playing D&D, and while more D&D can be good, some people might want to experience other games they are unlikely to convince their friends to play. At GenCon last year my partner and I didn't even look at the D&D games because we already have two campaigns going on at home, and there were others we wanted to try (Vampire the Masquerade, Call of Cthulhu, Daggerheart) so we looked for those games instead.
Shoutout to our Call of Cthulhu GM (I don't recall his name), who took us through a fantastic WW2 one-shot based on the village his family was from. Just a fantastic experience.
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I pointed this out on a post earlier, and got told I didn't know what I was talking about. Glad someone else noticed that Amazon did this
So bookscan only take sales froM dedicated bookshops, hobby/game shops do not report sales to it, so that 4000 copies ignores all hobby shops and game shops. In addition it does not take into account sales made direct from the wizards website or here on DnD beyond. For instance 3000 copies where sold at gencon alone.
www.polygon.com dnd players-handbook sold out
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Every single store that I know (and I know many!) tell me they are selling more D&D 2024 books than any before. Digital sales are through the roof. Folks seem to be zealously strange about needing attention when they talk about this stuff, wow, just wow. It's crazy the amount of folks who want attention and don't get their facts straight, or just do the most bare level of search.
To echo this, I spend my weekends at Barnes and Noble reading. About a month ago, they finally got enough PHBs on the shelf that the shelf doesn't look like swiss cheese after a few days of people scooping them up. I have never seen this store have to restock books so much. Even Sarah Maas books don't fly off the shelf like these have been here. When it first was released, the 2024 PHB was sold out a lot. And here at least, it isn't only new, young players picking it up. Most of the people I have seen swipe one of these books [Redacted] was old enough to look like my dad.
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Thanks Soong, for echoing that.
Sales don't mean much in a hobby in which only one person need own the rules for others to play. It could be 2024 is unprecedentedly popular and will be played at more tables than 2014 ever was! It could be copies of the books outsell the previous edition and even earlier editions but that these were more often played with only one person owning a copy of the rules and sales then give no indication of their comparable popularity. It could just be more and more people are buying the books. Buying does not equate to playing. That requires others to play with. Look at all the people who collect minis and rulebooks and supplementary rulebooks for Warhammer without their having ever played a game of Warhammer! Many are now buying two copies for themselves or even three if they are buying a copy of the books with the regular covers then a copy of the books with the alternative covers then a digital copy ... and this trend gives us little indication of how popular the game is. Many in the hobby have shelves upon shelves of game books that never see time at a table. Sales tell us how well something is selling. Little else. We aren't clairvoyants capable of seeing what every group is playing but the next best thing is going to be seeing how 2024 competes with 2014 or even other games at conventions and at game stores.
Research was done back in the late 1960’s/early 1970’s that showed that about 33% of the population were vocal conservatives. That is they were slow to change and vocal about not wanting to change. About 16% were vocal “liberals”. That is they welcomed change, were quick to move into new things and were vocal about the new benefits etc. I found the same to be true when I worked as a technology coordinator. About 1/3 of the folks were very reluctant to work with any new tech until it was well tested and weren’t too happy even then. About 1/6 of the folks were either the among the first to try things or had already tried them on their own. Once that initial sixth had worked out the kinks they were happy to pass it down to the middle 51% who were now willing to learn at least the basics. Only once they were proficient would the conservatives third allow themselves to be dragged into the new stuff. I suspect this is much the same.. in the days before the 2025 stuff started coming out the noise where was roughly 2:1 against - exactly what I expected. Now that we have had time to work with it I’m not surprised that many/most folks are picking up copies and starting to play with it. Like any other piece of software it has a few kinks but once you get used to them it’s fine. For those coming into the game it’s easy enough to use and really every player should have the PHB. The MM and DMG are really for the DM so I would expect smaller sales figures there. I know at my table I was an early bird and, because I’m one of the DMs, I made shared the digital copy to the table. Now other folks at the table are picking up their own digital or hard copies.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You are kind of making my point for me: more and more people are buying books they technically don't need. Not every player requires his or her own copy of the PHB. Many if not even most tables back in the day had the one copy between them. I have played in a number of 2014 games since 2014 and am even now playing in a 2024 one; I own neither PHB. It remains doable for a DM to run a game for others and for those others to never have to even pick up a copy of it. I played in a 5E game that started during COVID run by someone who wanted at least one veteran player at the table when he introduced the other two to the hobby and neither of them ever needed to even open up a copy of the PHB in what was a campaign that lasted three and a half years. A DM versed enough in the rules can manage quite easily without his or her players having read the rules. Or even having the rules at hand. Some DMs won't even have a copy of the rules at their table. Favoring rulings as they do over having to look up every little thing to make sure something is done 'right.' Countless are the videos on this very subject in which DMs talk about what they bring with them to run a game and often the rules are not among what they bring. Their notes. The adventure/module if it's a published one. Maybe a supplement of some sort. Something with random tables. Many leave the rules at home. I have used multiple game systems for running term-long campaigns for school children of various grades and would never have expected each and every student to read the rules and only ever had a copy of the rules should I have felt I needed to consult them.
Sales figures tell us how well something is selling. They give no real indication of how many people are playing. 2024's presence and performance at future conventions might.
Indeed. If you go by convention tables, the most popular games in the world right now are Shadowdark, Call of Cthulhu and Blades in the Dark. I find that...both interesting and kind of shocking. I mean, Shadowdark I can kind get, its the new shiny. Call of Cthulhu has this big convention following for several years now and I'm always taken back by it, it's such a niche thing, yet so popular. The big mystery is Blades in the Dark. I mean its a cool game, but seeing so many tables dedicated to it is surprising. Talk about extremely niche.
D&D is also very popular, but only at select conventions. The most interesting thing about it is what people are running. The most common thing you see at conventions is still the starter kits. Essentials Kit, Mines and the Stranger Things one.
But D&D is the "icebreaker ship" creating a new path. Thanks this the hobby is known by more people and later some players may dare to try other titles.
I live in a relatively small city with only one comic-shop, and the owner wants to retire. If the shop is closed then I will can't buy in other place. There are players of Magic: the Gathering and other card games and wargames but I am afraid I'm the only fan in town and nobody else has bought a TTRPG book but me.
Hasbro doesn't worry so much about to sell more TTRPGs but to sell D&D products, and they aren't the same thing. Now Hasbro seems to be more focused into selling "premium mode" toys, because children would rather cheaper toys or videogames. The franchise is earning brand power but it needs time (let's remember before the Marvel cinematic universe the action-live productions were a bomb until trilogy of Blade the vampire-hunter).
On top of all the sales figures, the fact that we have a conveyor of new books being announced well up to the end of the year, says that sales have been good enough that they're going to keep rolling instead of re-evaluating the situation.
Super curious about this as I'm about to retire and have lots and lots of free time on my hands. What do find appealing about this?
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My favorite part of reading back through this thread is that it started with "Sales are bad so 2024 is a failure!" and now it is, "Just because it is selling well doesn't mean people are playing it!".
Mother and Cat Herder. Playing TTRPGs since 1989 (She/Her)
I think there is a correlation between these: shadowdark and Call of Cthulhu are far more lethal, and work for that reason likely better in convention scenarios. Blades in the Dark, i have no real reference, but i think it is also well suited for episodic play? So, all of them are suited for short term play, one shots. And this also explains why the starter kits are there, they are short.
Meanwhile, most people who want to play D&D are looking for a long term campaign to build character story, more so than a quick one-shot for the pure gameplay part.
This means, these convention plays are not about popularity in home games, but about how popular they are to play at a convention.
Like the difference between eating at a sport game stadium watching with a lot of strangers, and cooking at home to watch some sports with friends.
I never once in this thread suggested sales were 'bad.' Some might have. But please don't lump everyone in together who is now making the point that how many books are sold gives little indication of how many people are playing it.
And no one has suggested no one is playing it. People obviously are. I even said:
It could be 2024 is unprecedentedly popular and will be played at more tables than 2014 ever was!
That is hardly questioning whether or not anyone is playing it.
My main points simply are if you have bought 2 x or 3 x copies of the books—any combination of physical with regular covers, physical with alternative covers, or a digital copy—that can give the false impression that is more than one person playing and if more people than ever are buying the books when in the past tables often shared a copy between them there is no telling if its just consumer trends or increased popularity when comparing these things.
Conventions are very receptive to the local scene. If the local scene plays shadowdark, there'll be shadowdark.
I tried to check my local convention's past schedules, but they're not up anymore. Nonetheless, they have an entire track for D&D Adventurer's League. (And not a lot of D&D outside that.) Meanwhile, in the regular RPG track, I believe the biggest grouping is Powered by the Apocalypse games. Pretty sure I've never seen Shadowdark, and few, if any, OSR games at all. You're more likely to see 1e, which usually has a slot or two.
As for Blades in the Dark, it's pretty successful. It can't really be called the new hotness in its part of the RPG universe, since it's 8 years old, but it's clearly got an audience. (It even got optioned for development into a TV series, although, like most options, likely nothing will come of it.) Is it more popular than Shadowdark? Could well be, but there's no way to tell. (And also eight years of growth vs recent release would make comparisons weak even if one actually had numbers.) It's also a good con game -- you can get players up to speed very quickly, and the heist structure works well for one-offs.
Niche? Perhaps, but so is Shadowdark. Indeed, almost all non D&D games are niche. (Pathfinder and Vampire are likely the only ones that might not be.)
It doesn't say much, really. They'll have had those books planned and worked on from before the release. It would have taken a truly abysmal performance for them to abandon those plans. Even then, given they'd already done part of the investment and the compatibility, they'd probably just go ahead anyway.
If they cancelled them, then I'd really be freaking.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
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This is meant only as humor
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Great points. On top of that, many people who are wanting to play D&D probably (hopefully) are already playing D&D, and while more D&D can be good, some people might want to experience other games they are unlikely to convince their friends to play. At GenCon last year my partner and I didn't even look at the D&D games because we already have two campaigns going on at home, and there were others we wanted to try (Vampire the Masquerade, Call of Cthulhu, Daggerheart) so we looked for those games instead.
Shoutout to our Call of Cthulhu GM (I don't recall his name), who took us through a fantastic WW2 one-shot based on the village his family was from. Just a fantastic experience.