Dragons are fine - They've removed the Claw/Claw/Bite element which was backloaded to the heavier damage on the bite. Rend makes for more reliable damage across their multi-attacks and has the added benefit of adding their elemental damage to all of their attacks, rather than just the Bite.
Your 'laser rays' are spellcasting which can be substituted for one of their melee attacks, granting a ranged and sometimes multi-target attack for when their breath weapon is on cooldown.
Many of the Adult and Ancient dragons also get their classic Dragonfear ability as a legendary action, as well as a movement-and-attack Pounce and an additional ability thematic to their typing.
They're fine and you' ought to read the statblocks again.
My dragons have a breath weapon, two claw attacks, a bite attack, and a tail whip attack.My ancient red dragons equivalents are a CR 30, and they causaly snack on my Tarrasque -- and would make short work of the Book one.
Now, why would I tell you about my dragons? Because the book dragons have a reason to be the way they are -- we have a whole new set of adventures coming, and they use these dragons.
Goblins are changed for a reason as well, and they have talked about that having importance down the road.
They didn't make the changes in a vacuum -- they have a rhyme and a reason for them -- and if we don't like something, that's what "homebrew" is for.
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Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
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They have eye beams now? Oh god. It's like ... there must have been a meeting, and the boss must have given the devs a task: How can we make dragons even cooler?
And the best anyone could come up with was eye lazers. Propably they watched an old X-Men movie the night before, and figured 'who's the coolest X-Man? Scott Summers, aka Cyclops!!!' Which is of course 100% totally wrong, there's no way to get it less accurate (since he's by far the least cool) - but then they thought 'but what would make Scott Summers even cooler? If he WAS A DRAGON!'
And no one had the good, common sense to stop them. It would be so funny, if it wasn't such an abject tragedy =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Many of the Adult and Ancient dragons also get their classic Dragonfear ability as a legendary action, as well as a movement-and-attack Pounce and an additional ability thematic to their typing.
They're fine and you' ought to read the statblocks again.
I reread ancient blue and red, nope zero fear.
Perhaps it is because now, in 2024, they are not frightening.
They have eye beams now? Oh god. It's like ... there must have been a meeting, and the boss must have given the devs a task: How can we make dragons even cooler?
And the best anyone could come up with was eye lazers. Propably they watched an old X-Men movie the night before, and figured 'who's the coolest X-Man? Scott Summers, aka Cyclops!!!' Which is of course 100% totally wrong, there's no way to get it less accurate (since he's by far the least cool) - but then they thought 'but what would make Scott Summers even cooler? If he WAS A DRAGON!'
And no one had the good, common sense to stop them. It would be so funny, if it wasn't such an abject tragedy =)
Well, Good news - They don't have eyebeams. They have spells: Blacks get Melf's Acid Arrow Blues get Shatter. Brass and Red get Scorching Ray Bronze and Gold get Guiding Bolt Coppers and Greens get Mind Spike Silvers get Ice Knife.
Once they reach Adult, they can sub out one of their Rend attacks each round for a casting of said spell, and some of them can cast them as one of their 3 (4 if in their lair) legendary actions per round. No eyebeams here, unless you elect to flavor them that way.
Many of the Adult and Ancient dragons also get their classic Dragonfear ability as a legendary action, as well as a movement-and-attack Pounce and an additional ability thematic to their typing.
They're fine and you' ought to read the statblocks again.
I reread ancient blue and red, nope zero fear.
Perhaps it is because now, in 2024, they are not frightening.
Blacks and Whites retain Frightful Presence as a legendary action. If you make the save, you're also pointedly not immune to it and remain susceptible to it in future rounds, where in the '14 versions, it was a one-and-done. If that's particularly upsetting for you, you can just add Fear to their spell list.
Yeah, I'm not.sure where the eyebeams are coming from,.Ancient Red Dragon has Rend (ok, a bit generic and covers bites, claws and tail whips, but you're meant to flavour it as such) and Fiery Breath. It can replace one of the Rends with Scorching Ray, but while that's again an odd name, that's just to reference the spell for mechanics' sake - you should still flavour it as spitting fire etc. None of the mechanics strike me as "eye beams" though - even without flavouring the names.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Well, Good news - They don't have eyebeams. They have spells: Blacks get Melf's Acid Arrow Blues get Shatter. Brass and Red get Scorching Ray Bronze and Gold get Guiding Bolt Coppers and Greens get Mind Spike Silvers get Ice Knife.
Once they reach Adult, they can sub out one of their Rend attacks each round for a casting of said spell, and some of them can cast them as one of their 3 (4 if in their lair) legendary actions per round. No eyebeams here, unless you elect to flavor them that way.
Oh! But the guy said ...?! I even checked online, but I guess I didn't find an official page that confirmed it.
Regardless: Despite the fact that my premise is completely wrong, I still stand by the conclusion. I was mostly trying to be funny anyways - in a ranty sort of way - but this came up just after another rant about lizardmen. Guess I got carried away =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Unfortunately, it is REALLY sad to see how the game designers, I don't know why, simplified the game in such a way that the dragons, the game's greatest symbols, are now reduced to something that is barely recognizable in relation to their more classic versions. An adult dragon in the 2nd edition of AD&D had a natural variety of attacks, such as the use of breath, dragon fear based in its presence and ferocity (since the age of young adult), spells, its bite, claws and tail. Now, dragons only scratch with their claws and use its breath weapon. Really, really sad.
Unfortunately, it is REALLY sad to see how the game designers, I don't know why, simplified the game in such a way that the dragons, the game's greatest symbols, are now reduced to something that is barely recognizable in relation to their more classic versions. An adult dragon in the 2nd edition of AD&D had a natural variety of attacks, such as the use of breath, dragon fear based in its presence and ferocity (since the age of young adult), spells, its bite, claws and tail. Now, dragons only scratch with their claws and use its breath weapon. Really, really sad.
That's just the combat stuff, there's a couple of out of comber things. They're not just going to scratch and do breath attacks.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Compare with the classic AD&D 2nd ed. A Young Black Dragon could do A LOT more than nowadays. Dumb over simplification. A young black dragon only rend, use breath weapon and fly. Bite? Nope. Tail sweep or slap? No. Dragon fear? What?
It´s really sad. Sad and boring.
Rend is rend. Bite is bite. Dragons in MM 2025 don´t bite anymore. Dragon fear is now a spell? That´s stupid! In an anti-magic zone, isn't a dragon a terrifying creature, capable of making mortals cower in terror from its ferocity and presence?
Rend is rend. Bite is bite. Dragons in MM 2025 don´t bite anymore.
Stat blocks are purely DM facing and "rend" just means "to tear something to pieces" which can be done with either teeth or claws. Dragons don't need identical actions where the only difference is one says "bite" and the other says "claws" to be able to attack with either a bite or their claws. Having a +6 to hit attack that does 2d10 + 4 piercing damage called "bite" and a +6 to hit attack that does 2d10 + 4 slashing damage called "claw" was just a waste of space on the stat block.
On the one hand, sometimes it was silly having multiple attacks spelt out when they were almost identical. Even when there were times where one was to hit +11/15 average damage while another attack was +13/13 damage, the difference was not really meaningful enough at the table to worry about it being different types of attacks. I seem to remember some where one was strictly inferior to another, which was stupid - and in those cases bound me as DM because if I wanted to do a varied attack, I'd have to accept worse stats and go easy on the party. Having one attack that is simply flavoured is a better format in those cases (where attacks are just very similar).
However, there is also a real loss in both mechanics and flavour where they've condensed quite different attacks as well. Case in point - the Adult Black Dragon '14 can beat its wings which is AoE with a Dex Save. The Adult Black Dragon '24 no longer can. That does reduce both flavour and tactical options in a meaningful way.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
For dragons outside of their lair, there's generally more flavor in 2024 than there was in 2014 -- dragons typically have three meaningful legendary actions (vs two in 2014) and often three meaningful on-turn actions (vs two in 2014), and several of those options are dragon type specific. However, counting in lair actions (where each dragon type had three special actions in 2014) it's a net loss.
To be fair, the effective performance can still be about the same. The Legacy Adult Red Dragon lair actions had a 5ft radius AoE for 6d6 damage (about equal to Scorching Ray), a wide AoE prone effect, and a mid AoE incapacitate until end of turn effect (Command can simulate both). The number of creatures affected at a time can be lower on the prone/incapacitate, but two creatures can be targeted every round in addition to the Scorching Ray as opposed to one effect per round, so you’re likely to net about the same affected units over the course of an encounter. And since it’s not on a fixed initiative beat, the effects can be used more tactically.
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I am reading the 2024 Ancient Red Dragon and I feel sad.
We lost the iconic dragon fear that was been in stories and dnd editions for 50 years?
Gone
We lost the dragon bite that always did the most damage?
Gone
We have generic word "Rend" and laser rays instead?
I don't understand what happened, how this could possibly get through.
I understand messing up Goblins, giving them extra damage with Advantage, but no way to create advantage.
But butchering the dragons???
Dragons are fine - They've removed the Claw/Claw/Bite element which was backloaded to the heavier damage on the bite.
Rend makes for more reliable damage across their multi-attacks and has the added benefit of adding their elemental damage to all of their attacks, rather than just the Bite.
Your 'laser rays' are spellcasting which can be substituted for one of their melee attacks, granting a ranged and sometimes multi-target attack for when their breath weapon is on cooldown.
Many of the Adult and Ancient dragons also get their classic Dragonfear ability as a legendary action, as well as a movement-and-attack Pounce and an additional ability thematic to their typing.
They're fine and you' ought to read the statblocks again.
My dragons still instill fear.
My dragons have a breath weapon, two claw attacks, a bite attack, and a tail whip attack.My ancient red dragons equivalents are a CR 30, and they causaly snack on my Tarrasque -- and would make short work of the Book one.
Now, why would I tell you about my dragons? Because the book dragons have a reason to be the way they are -- we have a whole new set of adventures coming, and they use these dragons.
Goblins are changed for a reason as well, and they have talked about that having importance down the road.
They didn't make the changes in a vacuum -- they have a rhyme and a reason for them -- and if we don't like something, that's what "homebrew" is for.
Only a DM since 1980 (3000+ Sessions) / PhD, MS, MA / Mixed, Bi, Trans, Woman / No longer welcome in the US, apparently
Wyrlde: Adventures in the Seven Cities
.-=] Lore Book | Patreon | Wyrlde YT [=-.
An original Setting for 5e, a whole solar system of adventure. Ongoing updates, exclusies, more.
Not Talking About It / Dubbed The Oracle in the Cult of Mythology Nerds
They have eye beams now? Oh god. It's like ... there must have been a meeting, and the boss must have given the devs a task: How can we make dragons even cooler?
And the best anyone could come up with was eye lazers. Propably they watched an old X-Men movie the night before, and figured 'who's the coolest X-Man? Scott Summers, aka Cyclops!!!' Which is of course 100% totally wrong, there's no way to get it less accurate (since he's by far the least cool) - but then they thought 'but what would make Scott Summers even cooler? If he WAS A DRAGON!'
And no one had the good, common sense to stop them. It would be so funny, if it wasn't such an abject tragedy =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I reread ancient blue and red, nope zero fear.
Perhaps it is because now, in 2024, they are not frightening.
Well, Good news - They don't have eyebeams. They have spells:
Blacks get Melf's Acid Arrow
Blues get Shatter.
Brass and Red get Scorching Ray
Bronze and Gold get Guiding Bolt
Coppers and Greens get Mind Spike
Silvers get Ice Knife.
Once they reach Adult, they can sub out one of their Rend attacks each round for a casting of said spell, and some of them can cast them as one of their 3 (4 if in their lair) legendary actions per round. No eyebeams here, unless you elect to flavor them that way.
Blacks and Whites retain Frightful Presence as a legendary action. If you make the save, you're also pointedly not immune to it and remain susceptible to it in future rounds, where in the '14 versions, it was a one-and-done. If that's particularly upsetting for you, you can just add Fear to their spell list.
Yeah, I'm not.sure where the eyebeams are coming from,.Ancient Red Dragon has Rend (ok, a bit generic and covers bites, claws and tail whips, but you're meant to flavour it as such) and Fiery Breath. It can replace one of the Rends with Scorching Ray, but while that's again an odd name, that's just to reference the spell for mechanics' sake - you should still flavour it as spitting fire etc. None of the mechanics strike me as "eye beams" though - even without flavouring the names.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Oh! But the guy said ...?! I even checked online, but I guess I didn't find an official page that confirmed it.
Regardless: Despite the fact that my premise is completely wrong, I still stand by the conclusion. I was mostly trying to be funny anyways - in a ranty sort of way - but this came up just after another rant about lizardmen. Guess I got carried away =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Unfortunately, it is REALLY sad to see how the game designers, I don't know why, simplified the game in such a way that the dragons, the game's greatest symbols, are now reduced to something that is barely recognizable in relation to their more classic versions.
An adult dragon in the 2nd edition of AD&D had a natural variety of attacks, such as the use of breath, dragon fear based in its presence and ferocity (since the age of young adult), spells, its bite, claws and tail. Now, dragons only scratch with their claws and use its breath weapon.
Really, really sad.
Young dragons are not adult dragons and adult dragons do a lot more than scratch and use breath weapon.
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While 2024 dragons are fairly boring... it's not like 2014 dragons were all that interesting either. I customize all my boss monsters quite a bit.
Looking at the Adult Black Dragon, it can:
- Rend, which while admittedly bland, does cover physical attacks.
- Do an Acid Breath attack.
- Cast Fear.
- Cast Vitriolic Sphere.
- Cast Melf's Acid Arrow.
- Do a Cloud of Insects attack.
That's just the combat stuff, there's a couple of out of comber things. They're not just going to scratch and do breath attacks.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
Compare with the classic AD&D 2nd ed. A Young Black Dragon could do A LOT more than nowadays.
Dumb over simplification.
A young black dragon only rend, use breath weapon and fly.
Bite? Nope.
Tail sweep or slap? No.
Dragon fear? What?
It´s really sad. Sad and boring.
Rend is rend. Bite is bite.
Dragons in MM 2025 don´t bite anymore.
Dragon fear is now a spell? That´s stupid!
In an anti-magic zone, isn't a dragon a terrifying creature, capable of making mortals cower in terror from its ferocity and presence?
Stat blocks are purely DM facing and "rend" just means "to tear something to pieces" which can be done with either teeth or claws. Dragons don't need identical actions where the only difference is one says "bite" and the other says "claws" to be able to attack with either a bite or their claws. Having a +6 to hit attack that does 2d10 + 4 piercing damage called "bite" and a +6 to hit attack that does 2d10 + 4 slashing damage called "claw" was just a waste of space on the stat block.
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The position is in between those.
On the one hand, sometimes it was silly having multiple attacks spelt out when they were almost identical. Even when there were times where one was to hit +11/15 average damage while another attack was +13/13 damage, the difference was not really meaningful enough at the table to worry about it being different types of attacks. I seem to remember some where one was strictly inferior to another, which was stupid - and in those cases bound me as DM because if I wanted to do a varied attack, I'd have to accept worse stats and go easy on the party. Having one attack that is simply flavoured is a better format in those cases (where attacks are just very similar).
However, there is also a real loss in both mechanics and flavour where they've condensed quite different attacks as well. Case in point - the Adult Black Dragon '14 can beat its wings which is AoE with a Dex Save. The Adult Black Dragon '24 no longer can. That does reduce both flavour and tactical options in a meaningful way.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
So if you were talking about young dragons, why did you bring up adult dragons?
DM mostly, Player occasionally | Session 0 form | He/Him/They/Them
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Doctor/Published Scholar/Science and Healthcare Advocate/Critter/Trekkie/Gandalf with a Glock
Try DDB free: Free Rules (2024), premade PCs, adventures, one shots, encounters, SC, homebrew, more
Answers: physical books, purchases, and subbing.
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For dragons outside of their lair, there's generally more flavor in 2024 than there was in 2014 -- dragons typically have three meaningful legendary actions (vs two in 2014) and often three meaningful on-turn actions (vs two in 2014), and several of those options are dragon type specific. However, counting in lair actions (where each dragon type had three special actions in 2014) it's a net loss.
To be fair, the effective performance can still be about the same. The Legacy Adult Red Dragon lair actions had a 5ft radius AoE for 6d6 damage (about equal to Scorching Ray), a wide AoE prone effect, and a mid AoE incapacitate until end of turn effect (Command can simulate both). The number of creatures affected at a time can be lower on the prone/incapacitate, but two creatures can be targeted every round in addition to the Scorching Ray as opposed to one effect per round, so you’re likely to net about the same affected units over the course of an encounter. And since it’s not on a fixed initiative beat, the effects can be used more tactically.