Along with clarifications on how Hide works, we could use a clarification on how Heavily Obscured works. Because the Rules Glossary heavily implies it's only when trying to see someone who is in the area that you're Blinded (also weakly backed by the Hide rules), but chapter 1 has the rule written in a completely self contradictory way.
Along with clarifications on how Hide works, we could use a clarification on how Heavily Obscured works.
It's kind of impossible to clarify how heavily obscured works, because it's used to represent both darkness and opaque fog, and those should really behave differently.
Along with clarifications on how Hide works, we could use a clarification on how Heavily Obscured works.
It's kind of impossible to clarify how heavily obscured works, because it's used to represent both darkness and opaque fog, and those should really behave differently.
I think it's really 3 cases: 1. something you can see out of but not into (often a buff, except when you trip on things --- basically how mundane darkness should work) 2. something you can see into but not out of 3. something that blocks vision both in and out (opaque fog)
And spliting the rule into 3 different things would require majorly reorganizing the effects and other rules, so they're not gonna do that in SA.
Along with clarifications on how Hide works, we could use a clarification on how Heavily Obscured works.
It's kind of impossible to clarify how heavily obscured works, because it's used to represent both darkness and opaque fog, and those should really behave differently.
It's not impossible at all and it's pretty clearly defined as not being able to see something because it's presence is being blocked from view due to lack of light, deep fog or heavy plant life like the jungles of Vietnam the Black Forests of Germany. @gordonfearman. Although your link is from the old PHB, the new one is defined the same way.
For clarification:Are you talking about this from a scientific, in-game, or inference-based position?
Because I have a proposed test case:Are you Hidden if a Fog Cloud source is moving? You're Heavily Obscured RAW, but when are you hidden when Obscured as such, especially if you're not the caster?
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to turn this into Yet Another how does Darkness work thread. I just wanted to get the question in for if/when the mods use the thread to compile questions to deliver to the designers for future Sage Advices as LaTiaJacquise and Elgate said earlier in the thread.
So why would a spell that is not a spell attack have their dice double when crit says to double the attack dies and then add any applicable relevant modifiers?
Why even have Sage Advice when a DM can just make a ruling?
Rules are a big part of what makes D&D a game, rather than simply improvised storytelling. The game’s rules are meant to help organize, and even inspire, the action of a D&D campaign. The rules are a tool, and we want our tools to be as effective as possible. No matter how good those tools might be, they need a group of players to bring them to life and a DM to guide their use.
The DM is key. Many unexpected things can happen in a D&D campaign, and no set of rules could reasonably account for every contingency. If the rules tried to do so, the game would become unwieldy. An alternative would be for the rules to severely limit what characters can do, which would be counter to the open-endedness of D&D. The direction we took for fifth edition was to lay a foundation of rules that a DM could build on, and we celebrate the DM as the bridge between the things the rules address and the things they don’t.
In a typical D&D session, a DM makes numerous rules decisions—some barely noticeable and others quite obvious. Players also interpret the rules, and the whole group keeps the game running. There are times, though, when the design intent of a rule isn’t clear or when one rule seems to contradict another.
Dealing with those situations is where Sage Advice comes in. It doesn’t replace a DM’s adjudication. Just as the rules do, this FAQ is meant to give DMs, as well as players, tools for tuning the game according to their tastes.
We often approach rules questions from one to three different perspectives: RAW (Rules as Written), RAI (Rules as Intended), and RAF (Rules as Fun). We recommend a mix of RAW, RAI, and RAF!
Please use this space to discuss and ask questions about Sage Advice and Errata. While we do not have a method for players to submit Sage Advice questions at this time, we will be sure to let you know if and/or when that avenue opens.
I see a lot of questions, but nothing from Crawford or the like? Just regular players offering their opinions.
I think sage advice is a great feature. However, the 2024 rules revision introduced several ambiguous rules which just lead to arguments at the table as the DM and one or more players take a different stance on the issue. This is fun for no one and is entirely due to some rules being left in a state that easily allows for different interpretations. It would be beneficial to the community as a whole if Sage Advice would address some of these thorny issues since the rules themselves are not clear.
I'll list a couple of the more egregious ones.
1) Lighting and vision.
- Darkness is treated the same as fog and dense foliage.
"A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the rules glossary) when trying to see something there."
These areas are Opaque which means that you can not see through them. Does this mean that creatures can NOT see through an area of natural darkness to a lit area within it? This would mean that a creature could not see a campfire in the darkness at night because the darkness around the campfire is opaque and blocks vision.
On the other hand, if a creature can see through Darkness to a lit area within it - i.e. Darkness is not opaque and you are only blinded when looking into it. Would this mean that a creature could see through 50' of dense foliage to a clearing in the middle? Or see through a fog cloud to the other side? I house rule this so it works in the way both players and I expect corresponding to the behavior in the "real" world - but as written, the rules lead to unrealistic expectations.
As a corollary - the Darkness spell states that it blocks Darkvision - but it does not state that it blocks normal vision. Can you see through the Darkness spell to objects on the other side or is the Darkness spell considered opaque based on the vision rules which treat normal Darkness and magical Darkness identically?
2) Another area with even greater arguments are the stealth rules.
- hiding requires the creature to be behind 3/4 or full cover. If successful on a DC15 check the creature becomes hidden and has the invisible condition.
Does the invisible condition by itself make a creature impossible to see with normal vision? This is what the word "invisible" means but the condition makes no specific mention of it.
Can a creature that succeeds on a stealth check and has the invisible condition walk freely in front of other creatures, wave their hand in front of their face and remain un-noticed? i.e. Does hiding grant the creature some ability to be unseen so that they can move freely without cover and not be noticed? This is what the rules seem to say but it doesn't fit most player's expectations. On the other hand, the invisibility spell provides the creature with the invisible condition also and is treated in exactly the same way. The invisibility spell contains no special text about making a creature become unseen and impossible to be viewed with normal senses.
Some players argue with DMs that their character is invisible after a successful hide (stealth) check and can therefore move through a crowd or a group of guards without being noticed. Is that how it is intended to work?
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There are more. :) ... it would also be nice if there were an address where questions could be submitted.
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Along with clarifications on how Hide works, we could use a clarification on how Heavily Obscured works. Because the Rules Glossary heavily implies it's only when trying to see someone who is in the area that you're Blinded (also weakly backed by the Hide rules), but chapter 1 has the rule written in a completely self contradictory way.
It's kind of impossible to clarify how heavily obscured works, because it's used to represent both darkness and opaque fog, and those should really behave differently.
I think it's really 3 cases:
1. something you can see out of but not into (often a buff, except when you trip on things --- basically how mundane darkness should work)
2. something you can see into but not out of
3. something that blocks vision both in and out (opaque fog)
And spliting the rule into 3 different things would require majorly reorganizing the effects and other rules, so they're not gonna do that in SA.
It's not impossible at all and it's pretty clearly defined as not being able to see something because it's presence is being blocked from view due to lack of light, deep fog or heavy plant life like the jungles of Vietnam the Black Forests of Germany. @gordonfearman. Although your link is from the old PHB, the new one is defined the same way.
You cannot clarify something that works in two different ways.
For clarification:Are you talking about this from a scientific, in-game, or inference-based position?
Because I have a proposed test case:Are you Hidden if a Fog Cloud source is moving? You're Heavily Obscured RAW, but when are you hidden when Obscured as such, especially if you're not the caster?
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
You literally can. You just need to provide clarifications for both functions.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
You need to create additional terminology to make it clear which version of the function any given situation is referring to.
Yes, that would be one way of doing it. Alternatively, you just include some kind of caveat or contextual definition information.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Sorry, I wasn't trying to turn this into Yet Another how does Darkness work thread. I just wanted to get the question in for if/when the mods use the thread to compile questions to deliver to the designers for future Sage Advices as LaTiaJacquise and Elgate said earlier in the thread.
Because Crawford already stated such and is quoted in post #34 of this thread: https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/d-d-beyond-general/general-discussion/219982-sage-advice-returns-official-thread?comment=34
I see a lot of questions, but nothing from Crawford or the like? Just regular players offering their opinions.
Crawford retired.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I think sage advice is a great feature. However, the 2024 rules revision introduced several ambiguous rules which just lead to arguments at the table as the DM and one or more players take a different stance on the issue. This is fun for no one and is entirely due to some rules being left in a state that easily allows for different interpretations. It would be beneficial to the community as a whole if Sage Advice would address some of these thorny issues since the rules themselves are not clear.
I'll list a couple of the more egregious ones.
1) Lighting and vision.
- Darkness is treated the same as fog and dense foliage.
"A Heavily Obscured area—such as an area with Darkness, heavy fog, or dense foliage—is opaque. You have the Blinded condition (see the rules glossary) when trying to see something there."
These areas are Opaque which means that you can not see through them. Does this mean that creatures can NOT see through an area of natural darkness to a lit area within it? This would mean that a creature could not see a campfire in the darkness at night because the darkness around the campfire is opaque and blocks vision.
On the other hand, if a creature can see through Darkness to a lit area within it - i.e. Darkness is not opaque and you are only blinded when looking into it. Would this mean that a creature could see through 50' of dense foliage to a clearing in the middle? Or see through a fog cloud to the other side? I house rule this so it works in the way both players and I expect corresponding to the behavior in the "real" world - but as written, the rules lead to unrealistic expectations.
As a corollary - the Darkness spell states that it blocks Darkvision - but it does not state that it blocks normal vision. Can you see through the Darkness spell to objects on the other side or is the Darkness spell considered opaque based on the vision rules which treat normal Darkness and magical Darkness identically?
2) Another area with even greater arguments are the stealth rules.
- hiding requires the creature to be behind 3/4 or full cover. If successful on a DC15 check the creature becomes hidden and has the invisible condition.
Does the invisible condition by itself make a creature impossible to see with normal vision? This is what the word "invisible" means but the condition makes no specific mention of it.
Can a creature that succeeds on a stealth check and has the invisible condition walk freely in front of other creatures, wave their hand in front of their face and remain un-noticed? i.e. Does hiding grant the creature some ability to be unseen so that they can move freely without cover and not be noticed? This is what the rules seem to say but it doesn't fit most player's expectations. On the other hand, the invisibility spell provides the creature with the invisible condition also and is treated in exactly the same way. The invisibility spell contains no special text about making a creature become unseen and impossible to be viewed with normal senses.
Some players argue with DMs that their character is invisible after a successful hide (stealth) check and can therefore move through a crowd or a group of guards without being noticed. Is that how it is intended to work?
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There are more. :) ... it would also be nice if there were an address where questions could be submitted.