I'd say Tier 2 is the best tier, Tier 3 is okay but usually where the game fizzles out, Tier 4 is still an unbalanced mess and Tier 1 has little to distinguish the classes properly. That said the early levels generally go past quick in most campaigns, if you were in a campaign where you're level 1-3 for a long time then they'll feel bad but most usually don't do that. Level 15+ is where I would say the game gets bad, 8th level spells while martials generally get very little, most getting nothing good since level 11 while casters continue to get more powerful.
What do you think the worst/most boring level is, either to play or DM? I'm going with level 4. The monsters are starting to get tanky, but the party doesn't have any big damage abilities, so it's not particularly fun.
I personally find 4 exciting because it's the first ASI, and therefore the first real opportunity to customize the character. You're also probably hitting 18 in your primary stat here, so you get that feeling of finally being mechanically stronger or smarter or faster etc than you were for the first 3 levels. (Yeah you chose your subclass before that, but most people go into the game knowing what subclass they want, whereas a feat is a choice you can make more organically, even for purely narrative reasons.)
I don't really have a least favorite level, but if I had to identify a low point it's probably 6th level? You're fresh off the high of getting Extra Attack or 3rd level spells, and then 6 is just kinda there. For most classes it's your second subclass feature, which results in a huge degree of variability - sometimes it'll be a thrilling next step down your character's lifelong path, but sometimes it'll be "I already got the truly defining thing at 3rd level so thanks I guess."
Levels 16-20 are the worst. Every fight feels like it is a battle with nuclear hand grenades where each side does so much damage that it simply comes down to which side hits first to determine the outcome.
this is the correct answer. DnD5e is not meant for this level at all. Its the worst for both sides.
Levels 16-20 are the worst. Every fight feels like it is a battle with nuclear hand grenades where each side does so much damage that it simply comes down to which side hits first to determine the outcome.
It might feel that way because of the larger numbers, but if you actually compare damage to hit points, levels 1 and 5 are the most prone to "whoever wins initiative wins the fight". The problem with tier 4 is that you need to be doing OHKO damage to even scare the PCs.
What do you think the worst/most boring level is, either to play or DM? I'm going with level 4. The monsters are starting to get tanky, but the party doesn't have any big damage abilities, so it's not particularly fun.
I personally find 4 exciting because it's the first ASI, and therefore the first real opportunity to customize the character. You're also probably hitting 18 in your primary stat here, so you get that feeling of finally being mechanically stronger or smarter or faster etc than you were for the first 3 levels. (Yeah you chose your subclass before that, but most people go into the game knowing what subclass they want, whereas a feat is a choice you can make more organically, even for purely narrative reasons.)
I don't really have a least favorite level, but if I had to identify a low point it's probably 6th level? You're fresh off the high of getting Extra Attack or 3rd level spells, and then 6 is just kinda there. For most classes it's your second subclass feature, which results in a huge degree of variability - sometimes it'll be a thrilling next step down your character's lifelong path, but sometimes it'll be "I already got the truly defining thing at 3rd level so thanks I guess."
It's pretty exciting if you're a paladin though.
Personally, I find that 6th level is fun because a lot of subclass features that you get at that level are pretty good, although there are some boring ones.
I think starting characters off at level 1 should only be done for newbies. Veterans should start campaigns at least at 3rd level when already have 2nd level features and can walk right in to their subclass.
I've no problem with "tankier" monsters as long as the DM uses the appropriate CR monster from the published books, and not something they homebrewed that ends up being nearly TPK'ing the party. It's supposed to be fun and challenging game, not an "oh god, I hope I don't die" game.
Level 13 because I have never gone higher than that as a player (it's my glass ceiling) and I think it is the beginning stages of where some DMs start to lose confidence.
Level 13 because I have never gone higher than that as a player (it's my glass ceiling) and I think it is the beginning stages of where some DMs start to lose confidence.
Well, it's where you really start running short of published examples, and it does have some distinct trouble spells (most likely to cause the DM headaches: etherealness, plane shift, simulacrum, teleport), but it's not like other levels don't have equally problematic stuff.
Level 13 because I have never gone higher than that as a player (it's my glass ceiling) and I think it is the beginning stages of where some DMs start to lose confidence.
Well, it's where you really start running short of published examples, and it does have some distinct trouble spells (most likely to cause the DM headaches: etherealness, plane shift, simulacrum, teleport), but it's not like other levels don't have equally problematic stuff.
I disagree with the Spells you listed being equally as bad as lower level ones. There's a reason why Acerak specifically names all those spells as spells that do not work in Tomb of annihilation.
Because confined spaces, physical matter, and even entire planes are no longer an obstacle anymore when you can just instantaneously phase through or teleport anywhere. High level characters, unless you have restrictions like in tomb of annihilation, basically should never be dungeon crawling because they have so many options of skipping the entire dungeon.
I disagree with the Spells you listed being equally as bad as lower level ones.
Oh, I'm not saying that they aren't problem spells -- just that there are a pretty significant list of problem spells at lower levels. In terms of spells that make games difficult to run (this is not the same as overpowered), various spells that cause distinct issues:
Find Familiar, Goodberry
Invisibility, Pass Without Trace
Animate Dead, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tiny Hut
Banishment, Polymorph
Passwall, Scrying, Teleportation Circle, Transmute Rock, Wall of Force
Heroes Feast, Magic Jar, Transport Via Plants, Wind Walk.
The thing about tier 3 and 4 is that you really need to embrace the over the top nature of things. Also, expect dungeons to be littered with countermeasures -- readily available effects for dealing with many of those spells are private sanctum, hallow, and forbiddance.
I say 1st and 2nd level, they're just so lacking in features for most classes. I usually start the game at 3rd unless I've got a bunch of new players in the game who haven't learned the mechanics yet.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I disagree with the Spells you listed being equally as bad as lower level ones.
Oh, I'm not saying that they aren't problem spells -- just that there are a pretty significant list of problem spells at lower levels. In terms of spells that make games difficult to run (this is not the same as overpowered), various spells that cause distinct issues:
Find Familiar, Goodberry
Invisibility, Pass Without Trace
Animate Dead, Fly, Gaseous Form, Tiny Hut
Banishment, Polymorph
Passwall, Scrying, Teleportation Circle, Transmute Rock, Wall of Force
Heroes Feast, Magic Jar, Transport Via Plants, Wind Walk.
The thing about tier 3 and 4 is that you really need to embrace the over the top nature of things. Also, expect dungeons to be littered with countermeasures -- readily available effects for dealing with many of those spells are private sanctum, hallow, and forbiddance.
How dare you leave out Rope Trick! For the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot, the entire party gets an almost completely safe short rest, in any scenario!
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I'd say Tier 2 is the best tier, Tier 3 is okay but usually where the game fizzles out, Tier 4 is still an unbalanced mess and Tier 1 has little to distinguish the classes properly. That said the early levels generally go past quick in most campaigns, if you were in a campaign where you're level 1-3 for a long time then they'll feel bad but most usually don't do that. Level 15+ is where I would say the game gets bad, 8th level spells while martials generally get very little, most getting nothing good since level 11 while casters continue to get more powerful.
1-4 because most spell based classes aren't very fun/strong untill you get third level spells
I personally find 4 exciting because it's the first ASI, and therefore the first real opportunity to customize the character. You're also probably hitting 18 in your primary stat here, so you get that feeling of finally being mechanically stronger or smarter or faster etc than you were for the first 3 levels. (Yeah you chose your subclass before that, but most people go into the game knowing what subclass they want, whereas a feat is a choice you can make more organically, even for purely narrative reasons.)
I don't really have a least favorite level, but if I had to identify a low point it's probably 6th level? You're fresh off the high of getting Extra Attack or 3rd level spells, and then 6 is just kinda there. For most classes it's your second subclass feature, which results in a huge degree of variability - sometimes it'll be a thrilling next step down your character's lifelong path, but sometimes it'll be "I already got the truly defining thing at 3rd level so thanks I guess."
It's pretty exciting if you're a paladin though.
this is the correct answer. DnD5e is not meant for this level at all. Its the worst for both sides.
It might feel that way because of the larger numbers, but if you actually compare damage to hit points, levels 1 and 5 are the most prone to "whoever wins initiative wins the fight". The problem with tier 4 is that you need to be doing OHKO damage to even scare the PCs.
Personally, I find that 6th level is fun because a lot of subclass features that you get at that level are pretty good, although there are some boring ones.
I think starting characters off at level 1 should only be done for newbies. Veterans should start campaigns at least at 3rd level when already have 2nd level features and can walk right in to their subclass.
I've no problem with "tankier" monsters as long as the DM uses the appropriate CR monster from the published books, and not something they homebrewed that ends up being nearly TPK'ing the party. It's supposed to be fun and challenging game, not an "oh god, I hope I don't die" game.
Level 13 because I have never gone higher than that as a player (it's my glass ceiling) and I think it is the beginning stages of where some DMs start to lose confidence.
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Well, it's where you really start running short of published examples, and it does have some distinct trouble spells (most likely to cause the DM headaches: etherealness, plane shift, simulacrum, teleport), but it's not like other levels don't have equally problematic stuff.
I disagree with the Spells you listed being equally as bad as lower level ones. There's a reason why Acerak specifically names all those spells as spells that do not work in Tomb of annihilation.
Because confined spaces, physical matter, and even entire planes are no longer an obstacle anymore when you can just instantaneously phase through or teleport anywhere. High level characters, unless you have restrictions like in tomb of annihilation, basically should never be dungeon crawling because they have so many options of skipping the entire dungeon.
Oh, I'm not saying that they aren't problem spells -- just that there are a pretty significant list of problem spells at lower levels. In terms of spells that make games difficult to run (this is not the same as overpowered), various spells that cause distinct issues:
The thing about tier 3 and 4 is that you really need to embrace the over the top nature of things. Also, expect dungeons to be littered with countermeasures -- readily available effects for dealing with many of those spells are private sanctum, hallow, and forbiddance.
I say 1st and 2nd level, they're just so lacking in features for most classes. I usually start the game at 3rd unless I've got a bunch of new players in the game who haven't learned the mechanics yet.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
How dare you leave out Rope Trick! For the cost of a 2nd-level spell slot, the entire party gets an almost completely safe short rest, in any scenario!