If folks want to believe that it is purely coincidental and not at all a direct response to the Australian amendment, and that it was purely coincidental that they happened to begin putting this new verification check forward, and had it ready to go, the day after the Australian amendment went into effect... and that it's a coincidence that the ~two month soft enforcement limit fits in with said amendments allowance time for suitable action and compliance as spelled out in that amendment... I guess sure? Seems pretty silly to me to insist that this isn't a direct response to it though. Of course it is.
If folk are curious, you can go and read the amendment that was passed, as well as the Australian government's formal statement about which platforms are targeted and which ones aren't. Outside of that direct list, though, there are several factors which mean that DDB here does not qualify as an age-restricted social media platform by the definitions of that particular amendment. Most notably: DDB is a business platform whose primary purpose (legally) is the selling of produces and services. Its forums are a secondary attachment to that, and are not the primary, let alone the sole, function of the site or platform (this is one of the requirements in the amendment). Secondly, simple post-based forums are not included in their definitions in the text of the amendment - your ancient little play-by-post roleplay forum is not going to get slapped with these requirements. The DDB forums fall into this category and are safe from the restrictions.
Regardless of whether they're affected or not, it's most definitely another *opportunity* for DDB to jump on the wagon and gather more data... so if they think they can do it without causing too much monetary backlash from their cash-spending user-base, they will.
On the upside, it's a restriction that is being place on the platforms themselves, not the users in any way... and this mostly applies to other Australian users... but, it means that if you circumvent whatever measures a platform takes... if you cheat the k-ID verification with something as simple as the heroforge mini creator (this is one of the easiest ways to do so), or access 'restricted' platforms without verifying or as a person under 16... that's fine. You're not in the wrong, and you're not breaking any law. You face no legal repercussions at all because you are not doing anything wrong... the onus falls entirely on the platforms, and they are the only ones who stand to get in trouble for failing to keep you out.
Just to clarify, as an air-clear... I know it's easy to interpret the firm tone I used before as anger, but it's not. It's just a statement of relation and consequence... I'm not prepared to give this platform that degree of RL veritable data; I simply will not do so. If they later decide that they must insist that I do to continue using the service I've paid for, or to continue accessing the products I've purchased from them... well, that doesn't change the fact that it's not something I'm going to do, and if the result is that I no longer use their service or purchase their products, then that is the result. No anger, just the terms of my continued business with them.
I do not live in Australia. Australian law has no jurisdiction outside of Australia. Wizbro is not law enforcement anywhere let alone part of a global law enforcement group. This is a sloppy easy way for them to comply, but it is at the expense of the majority. They need to implement a solution that will actually work and not be a defacto data mine for the dark web. Shame on wizbro for even trying such a flawed solution.
I absolutely refuse to provide this information. Especially since I log in through my Google account. My Google account that is older than this site. Purchases that I've made through my PayPal. PayPal, an online banking exchange site. Both of which are evidence of my age. DnDBeyond does not, under any circumstance, require either my age or my location. And to suggest or demand such information is utterly abhorrent to my, and everyone else's privacy. And the day that becomes mandatory is the day I cut my subscription.
Assuming they can access that other information, which they absolutely can't right now and would require a whole thing between them and the other companies to make possible assuming the other companies are allowed to make those channels available and would be inclined to make it possible.
Thing is:The whole consumer data market is so hush hush because all laws are(Deliberately) behind technological growth regarding transparency of such.
So no one really knows anything but companies.
& if you don't think the governments will find a way to over-expand the coverage of laws that trigger this kind of thing beyond alleged limits, let alone not have your data regardless of the laws passed, either you've been not paying attention or don't seem to realize that most companies & governments already have/can access your info if they cared(even if they aren't allowed to) ESPECIALLY intelligence/Military orgs, payment processors & banks, and anybody you affect the stock price of.
This whole shebang merely checks a box to technically comply w/said laws, which can not & will not protect kids, & instead are adults trying to maintain the status quo in favor of the same rich people who push for this kind of thing to Dubai/Riyadh-ify their countries so they & their bloodlines can have slaves do all of the inconvenient things that they were told AI can't do for them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I absolutely refuse to provide this information. Especially since I log in through my Google account. My Google account that is older than this site. Purchases that I've made through my PayPal. PayPal, an online banking exchange site. Both of which are evidence of my age. DnDBeyond does not, under any circumstance, require either my age or my location. And to suggest or demand such information is utterly abhorrent to my, and everyone else's privacy. And the day that becomes mandatory is the day I cut my subscription.
You have this kind of response when you have been using Google for at least a decade? Your Google account, which has harvested and sold every intimate secret of your personal life at bargain prices? It seems weird to me that you are throwing up such a strong response over a date of birth that has no requirement to support with evidence of any kind, while you have been using one of the biggest data miners in history, likely on a daily basis.
I absolutely refuse to provide this information. Especially since I log in through my Google account. My Google account that is older than this site. Purchases that I've made through my PayPal. PayPal, an online banking exchange site. Both of which are evidence of my age. DnDBeyond does not, under any circumstance, require either my age or my location. And to suggest or demand such information is utterly abhorrent to my, and everyone else's privacy. And the day that becomes mandatory is the day I cut my subscription.
You have this kind of response when you have been using Google for at least a decade? Your Google account, which has harvested and sold every intimate secret of your personal life at bargain prices? It seems weird to me that you are throwing up such a strong response over a date of birth that has no requirement to support with evidence of any kind, while you have been using one of the biggest data miners in history, likely on a daily basis.
This argument isn't really very helpful. A person can want stronger data privacy protections and yet still have reasons to use services that hoover up data. You can contribute to a system, be unhappy with all parts of that system, and also realize that your individual action is insufficient to change that system. That's not really a gotcha. That's just life being complicated.
Hey all, popping back in here to clear at least one thing up: this is not in response to Australia's social media ban for under-16s. Putting stuff like this in place takes longer than whatever that news timeframe was. Personally, I wasn't even aware of that until late last month.
A lot of you have already hit the nail on the head with why this is happening now on DDB, which I'll reiterate here: we're joining the many other websites on this great wide internet in age verification to comply with laws that are being rolled out across the world. No one particular part of the world is the cause for this.
Last thing I'll say is that you're allowed to feel how you feel about the wider reasons that things like age verification are now required, but you're still also required to abide by the rules of the site and the forums. I don't want to have to lock the thread, so maybe take a step back, cool down, and keep it civil.
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Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her) You can call me LT. :)
CM Hat On| CM Hat Off Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5]. Thank you for your patience if you message me outside of those hours!
Hey all, popping back in here to clear at least one thing up: this is not in response to Australia's social media ban for under-16s. Putting stuff like this in place takes longer than whatever that news timeframe was. Personally, I wasn't even aware of that until late last month.
A lot of you have already hit the nail on the head with why this is happening now on DDB, which I'll reiterate here: we're joining the many other websites on this great wide internet in age verification to comply with laws that are being rolled out across the world. No one particular part of the world is the cause for this.
Last thing I'll say is that you're allowed to feel how you feel about the wider reasons that things like age verification are now required, but you're still also required to abide by the rules of the site and the forums. I don't want to have to lock the thread, so maybe take a step back, cool down, and keep it civil.
LaTia, I've been a big fan of yours since your were with the folks at Monte Cook Games. I respect you immensely.
However, I cannot be civil about age verification. In order to verify my age for somebody else, I must also verify it for myself. That imposes unacceptable mental anguish on me, as it likely does for all of us who believe that the 90s ended about a decade ago.
Hey all, popping back in here to clear at least one thing up: this is not in response to Australia's social media ban for under-16s. Putting stuff like this in place takes longer than whatever that news timeframe was. Personally, I wasn't even aware of that until late last month.
A lot of you have already hit the nail on the head with why this is happening now on DDB, which I'll reiterate here: we're joining the many other websites on this great wide internet in age verification to comply with laws that are being rolled out across the world. No one particular part of the world is the cause for this.
Last thing I'll say is that you're allowed to feel how you feel about the wider reasons that things like age verification are now required, but you're still also required to abide by the rules of the site and the forums. I don't want to have to lock the thread, so maybe take a step back, cool down, and keep it civil.
LaTia, I've been a big fan of yours since your were with the folks at Monte Cook Games. I respect you immensely.
However, I cannot be civil about age verification. In order to verify my age for somebody else, I must also verify it for myself. That imposes unacceptable mental anguish on me, as it likely does for all of us who believe that the 90s ended about a decade ago.
Thank you, I really appreciate that! However, I am a poor judge of sarcasm across the internet, but your reply sounds silly, so I am giving a silly answer. If I'm wrong, mea culpa:
I cannot remember how old I am on a good day, and I still suspect I'm younger than a good number of y'all. I don't wanna be confronted with my own mortality and the unfair passage of time any more than you do!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her) You can call me LT. :)
CM Hat On| CM Hat Off Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5]. Thank you for your patience if you message me outside of those hours!
I absolutely refuse to provide this information. Especially since I log in through my Google account. My Google account that is older than this site. Purchases that I've made through my PayPal. PayPal, an online banking exchange site. Both of which are evidence of my age. DnDBeyond does not, under any circumstance, require either my age or my location. And to suggest or demand such information is utterly abhorrent to my, and everyone else's privacy. And the day that becomes mandatory is the day I cut my subscription.
While either Google or PayPal could choose to run their own ID verification service, as could a number of other businesses D&D Beyond works with, such as credit card companies, as far as I can tell they don't... and you probably don't want them to, either. Without that, D&D Beyond either needs to collect the information themselves, or find a third party that does offer that service, and they chose the latter.
Thanks for the update, LaTia. I did a quick look but I didn't find anything - what are the disruptions for folks who don't want to enter the info (or I guess folks who took a computer cleanse and don't plan to log back on until sometime in February)? Will they lose access to all of DDB? Just the forums? Something else? Apologies if I missed this somewhere and there's already a link to clarify those questions.
Thanks for the update, LaTia. I did a quick look but I didn't find anything - what are the disruptions for folks who don't want to enter the info (or I guess folks who took a computer cleanse and don't plan to log back on until sometime in February)? Will they lose access to all of DDB? Just the forums? Something else? Apologies if I missed this somewhere and there's already a link to clarify those questions.
Let me ask the team in charge of this rollout and get back to you! Monday at the earliest; obviously everyone's not available over the weekend. Thanks for understanding!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her) You can call me LT. :)
CM Hat On| CM Hat Off Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5]. Thank you for your patience if you message me outside of those hours!
The post you quoted is an observation, they don't seem to be "bent out of shape", also I don't remember the last time I was carded for a drink especially at a place I have frequented for years.
So we have entered the "show me your papers" era, guess we know what comes next. Anyone else feel like it's 1984?
Do you get this bent out of shape every time you get carded for a drink?
This exchange is like a microcosm of the internet. One is hyperbole. The other is a cheap shot devoid of anything substantive.
Not that anybody cares, but the difference between being carded and what we're dealing with online is that a typical bouncer at a bar isn't a meaningful data security threat. Any online platform has the potential to be breached, in which case stored PII can fall into the hands of bad actors. Is it likely to be a serious issue in this case? No, but I don't know your threat model.
The post you quoted is an observation, they don't seem to be "bent out of shape", also I don't remember the last time I was carded for a drink especially at a place I have frequented for years.
Are you really this obtuse, or just haven't read "1984" to not see they are being alarmist when this is really no different than carding for alcohol.
If folks want to believe that it is purely coincidental and not at all a direct response to the Australian amendment, and that it was purely coincidental that they happened to begin putting this new verification check forward, and had it ready to go, the day after the Australian amendment went into effect... and that it's a coincidence that the ~two month soft enforcement limit fits in with said amendments allowance time for suitable action and compliance as spelled out in that amendment... I guess sure? Seems pretty silly to me to insist that this isn't a direct response to it though. Of course it is.
If folk are curious, you can go and read the amendment that was passed, as well as the Australian government's formal statement about which platforms are targeted and which ones aren't. Outside of that direct list, though, there are several factors which mean that DDB here does not qualify as an age-restricted social media platform by the definitions of that particular amendment. Most notably: DDB is a business platform whose primary purpose (legally) is the selling of produces and services. Its forums are a secondary attachment to that, and are not the primary, let alone the sole, function of the site or platform (this is one of the requirements in the amendment). Secondly, simple post-based forums are not included in their definitions in the text of the amendment - your ancient little play-by-post roleplay forum is not going to get slapped with these requirements. The DDB forums fall into this category and are safe from the restrictions.
Regardless of whether they're affected or not, it's most definitely another *opportunity* for DDB to jump on the wagon and gather more data... so if they think they can do it without causing too much monetary backlash from their cash-spending user-base, they will.
On the upside, it's a restriction that is being place on the platforms themselves, not the users in any way... and this mostly applies to other Australian users... but, it means that if you circumvent whatever measures a platform takes... if you cheat the k-ID verification with something as simple as the heroforge mini creator (this is one of the easiest ways to do so), or access 'restricted' platforms without verifying or as a person under 16... that's fine. You're not in the wrong, and you're not breaking any law. You face no legal repercussions at all because you are not doing anything wrong... the onus falls entirely on the platforms, and they are the only ones who stand to get in trouble for failing to keep you out.
Just to clarify, as an air-clear... I know it's easy to interpret the firm tone I used before as anger, but it's not. It's just a statement of relation and consequence... I'm not prepared to give this platform that degree of RL veritable data; I simply will not do so. If they later decide that they must insist that I do to continue using the service I've paid for, or to continue accessing the products I've purchased from them... well, that doesn't change the fact that it's not something I'm going to do, and if the result is that I no longer use their service or purchase their products, then that is the result. No anger, just the terms of my continued business with them.
I do not live in Australia. Australian law has no jurisdiction outside of Australia. Wizbro is not law enforcement anywhere let alone part of a global law enforcement group. This is a sloppy easy way for them to comply, but it is at the expense of the majority. They need to implement a solution that will actually work and not be a defacto data mine for the dark web. Shame on wizbro for even trying such a flawed solution.
I absolutely refuse to provide this information. Especially since I log in through my Google account. My Google account that is older than this site. Purchases that I've made through my PayPal. PayPal, an online banking exchange site. Both of which are evidence of my age. DnDBeyond does not, under any circumstance, require either my age or my location. And to suggest or demand such information is utterly abhorrent to my, and everyone else's privacy. And the day that becomes mandatory is the day I cut my subscription.
Assuming they can access that other information, which they absolutely can't right now and would require a whole thing between them and the other companies to make possible assuming the other companies are allowed to make those channels available and would be inclined to make it possible.
Thing is:The whole consumer data market is so hush hush because all laws are(Deliberately) behind technological growth regarding transparency of such.
So no one really knows anything but companies.
& if you don't think the governments will find a way to over-expand the coverage of laws that trigger this kind of thing beyond alleged limits, let alone not have your data regardless of the laws passed, either you've been not paying attention or don't seem to realize that most companies & governments already have/can access your info if they cared(even if they aren't allowed to) ESPECIALLY intelligence/Military orgs, payment processors & banks, and anybody you affect the stock price of.
This whole shebang merely checks a box to technically comply w/said laws, which can not & will not protect kids, & instead are adults trying to maintain the status quo in favor of the same rich people who push for this kind of thing to Dubai/Riyadh-ify their countries so they & their bloodlines can have slaves do all of the inconvenient things that they were told AI can't do for them.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
You have this kind of response when you have been using Google for at least a decade? Your Google account, which has harvested and sold every intimate secret of your personal life at bargain prices? It seems weird to me that you are throwing up such a strong response over a date of birth that has no requirement to support with evidence of any kind, while you have been using one of the biggest data miners in history, likely on a daily basis.
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This argument isn't really very helpful. A person can want stronger data privacy protections and yet still have reasons to use services that hoover up data. You can contribute to a system, be unhappy with all parts of that system, and also realize that your individual action is insufficient to change that system. That's not really a gotcha. That's just life being complicated.
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D&D StaffHey all, popping back in here to clear at least one thing up: this is not in response to Australia's social media ban for under-16s. Putting stuff like this in place takes longer than whatever that news timeframe was. Personally, I wasn't even aware of that until late last month.
A lot of you have already hit the nail on the head with why this is happening now on DDB, which I'll reiterate here: we're joining the many other websites on this great wide internet in age verification to comply with laws that are being rolled out across the world. No one particular part of the world is the cause for this.
Last thing I'll say is that you're allowed to feel how you feel about the wider reasons that things like age verification are now required, but you're still also required to abide by the rules of the site and the forums. I don't want to have to lock the thread, so maybe take a step back, cool down, and keep it civil.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her)
You can call me LT. :)
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Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5].
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LaTia, I've been a big fan of yours since your were with the folks at Monte Cook Games. I respect you immensely.
However, I cannot be civil about age verification. In order to verify my age for somebody else, I must also verify it for myself. That imposes unacceptable mental anguish on me, as it likely does for all of us who believe that the 90s ended about a decade ago.
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D&D StaffThank you, I really appreciate that! However, I am a poor judge of sarcasm across the internet, but your reply sounds silly, so I am giving a silly answer. If I'm wrong, mea culpa:
I cannot remember how old I am on a good day, and I still suspect I'm younger than a good number of y'all. I don't wanna be confronted with my own mortality and the unfair passage of time any more than you do!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her)
You can call me LT. :)
CM Hat On | CM Hat Off
Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5].
Thank you for your patience if you message me outside of those hours!
Useful Links: Site Rules & Guidelines | D&D Educator Resources | Change Your Nickname | Submit a Support Ticket
While either Google or PayPal could choose to run their own ID verification service, as could a number of other businesses D&D Beyond works with, such as credit card companies, as far as I can tell they don't... and you probably don't want them to, either. Without that, D&D Beyond either needs to collect the information themselves, or find a third party that does offer that service, and they chose the latter.
Thanks for the update, LaTia. I did a quick look but I didn't find anything - what are the disruptions for folks who don't want to enter the info (or I guess folks who took a computer cleanse and don't plan to log back on until sometime in February)? Will they lose access to all of DDB? Just the forums? Something else? Apologies if I missed this somewhere and there's already a link to clarify those questions.
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D&D StaffLet me ask the team in charge of this rollout and get back to you! Monday at the earliest; obviously everyone's not available over the weekend. Thanks for understanding!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Community Manager (she/her)
You can call me LT. :)
CM Hat On | CM Hat Off
Generally active from 9am - 6pm CDT [GMT-5].
Thank you for your patience if you message me outside of those hours!
Useful Links: Site Rules & Guidelines | D&D Educator Resources | Change Your Nickname | Submit a Support Ticket
As someone who is glad to relax because it's not his weekend to be on call I 100% understand. Thanks, LaTia!
So we have entered the "show me your papers" era, guess we know what comes next. Anyone else feel like it's 1984?
Do you get this bent out of shape every time you get carded for a drink?
The post you quoted is an observation, they don't seem to be "bent out of shape", also I don't remember the last time I was carded for a drink especially at a place I have frequented for years.
This exchange is like a microcosm of the internet. One is hyperbole. The other is a cheap shot devoid of anything substantive.
Not that anybody cares, but the difference between being carded and what we're dealing with online is that a typical bouncer at a bar isn't a meaningful data security threat. Any online platform has the potential to be breached, in which case stored PII can fall into the hands of bad actors. Is it likely to be a serious issue in this case? No, but I don't know your threat model.
Drinking establishments do not keep a database of every customer's date of birth.
Are you really this obtuse, or just haven't read "1984" to not see they are being alarmist when this is really no different than carding for alcohol.
They've sent out an email about it now as well.