Taking your first level in Rogue nets you 4 choice proficiency's and 2 expertise's. As as added bonus there's also sneak attack. Starting Bard and going to 3 nets you 3 choice proficiency's, 2 expertise's, and JoaT. As an added bonus you get a subclass, of which there are options for every build and Lore gives 3 more choice proficiency's. Then the rest of your levels go to whatever build you actually want.
The major benefit gained by doing that really makes it seem like it's just an inherently better choice for every build, single class and multi class alike. Just figure out whether you want the unlocks from 19 levels or 17 levels (scaled down for characters that wont reach 20) for the rest of your build and take the Rouge 1 or Bard 3 accordingly. As for the notion of not getting a proficiency your main class starts with, not only are there feats for that, but there are rules allowing you to gain proficiency's just by having your character spend time and money learning it.
I am not convinced. In the first place for many characters creating a backstory that would result in a character having some rogue / bard talents would be convoluted at best but I will ignore that and assume you are just working on making the most powerful build you can without considering role play
I would also point out that only a small amount of the game is at your highest level so rather if your campaign will finish at level 10 it isn't what you miss by being only level 9 in your main class but what you lose by always being a level behind the curve up to level 10.
Rogue (why does almost everyone type Rouge which is French for red?)
2 skills promoted to expert from proficient is nice but far from a game changer
Sneak attack only works for finesse weapons and ranged weapons if you are planning on using one of these a level of rogue might be worth while but if you are playing a caster or strength based character it is useless
Without cunning action (hide) you will rarely have advantage on your attacks so will usually be reliant on someone else in your party being in melee range depending on the party depending on your party make and your DM this may limit the value of sneak attack
As you progress 1d6 for sneak attack becomes less and less significant, a similar "level gain is a level 11 fighter's extra attack, a rogue 1 / fighter 10 gets 2 attacks one of which may be a sneak attack for 1d6 extra damage (average of 3.5 * chances to hit * probability that the attack is eligible for sneak attack), a level 11 fighter loses the sneak attack but gains a 3rd attack for 1d8+7 damage (if he has taken dueling style) (average 11.5)
Bard
You get a small improvement to (almost) every skill but the cost is very high for example at level 9 as a caster (other than bard) you will only be able to cast level 3 spells instead of level 5.
Most of the subclass skill will be of very limited use if you don't have high charisma
If you want to play a character in heavy armor and start as a Rogue you will need 2 feats to be able to wear that heavy armor. If you want to use a heavy weapon and start as a Rogue you would need another feat to gain proficiency in those weapons. If you want to use a shield and start as a Rogue you would need another feat for that. Assuming you start as a Variant Human, that would mean you are level 12 before you can pick up a battle axe, shield, and chaimail, or you could start as a Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin and get proficiency in all of that at level 1 and still have a feat available for Great Weapon Master (assumes Variant Human).
If you want to play as a Monk, Sneak Attack will be useless because you cannot use it on your Unarmed Strikes because they are not Finesse Weapons. You would also have to wait an extra level until 3rd level to gain any Ki points for you Martial Arts abilities, which is why one plays Monk in the first place.
If you want to be a spell caster throwing spells all over Sneak Attack is useless because it cannot be applied to Spell Attacks. Slowing down your character progression by taking a useless level in rogue means the other kids are throwing Fireball around and you’re still using Shatter.
There is also the multiclass requirements that may throw off your stats. Artificers, wizards, clerics, druids, and rangers have other stats to focus on besides CHA. Barbarians and paladins have other things to focus on besides DEX.
There are certainly some situations to consider multiclassing, but there is always a cost in doing so to consider.
I love the dip as warlock. Especially as a varient human to get devils sight. Think that has tremendous benefits especially with a wizard casting darkness on you. The spells on short rest are very useful as well.
I am currently playing a rogue scout to lv4 then switching to Ranger Gloomstaker. Like how those skills work together. With urban bounty hunter background.Having fun building all the background.
That gives you a lot of proficiencies for certain, but I'd /never/, ever MC around which proficiencies I can learn.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I assume you are referring to Expertise being absurdly unbalanced in 5th edition (as a Thief player in 2nd and Rogue player in 3rd I still gravitate towards Expertise classes in 5th naturally) there are a couple of other ways to gain Expertise:
Aerini Elf get Expertise as a racial feat (Eberron book, NOT Eberron setting limited). Prodigy feat for Humans and Half Elves/Orcs (Xanathars), Knowledge Cleric (2 of 4 choices). This isn't as flexible, but it will definitely cover most situations where you only want a single skill with expertise.
If you are looking to go Expertise-crazy then you'll end up going Half Elf Lore Bard 10 Scout Rogue 6 Knowledge Cleric 1 build: (If you want to drop or don't use feats you would need to go Warlock 2 to make it back to 18 skills)
Proficiencies 20 out of 18 skills (2 Half Elf, 2 Background, 6 Rogue (4 1st level, 2 extra from Scout at 3rd), 4 Bard (1 multiclassing Bard, 3 Lore at 3rd), 2 Cleric (Knowledge at 1st) 3 skilled feat, 1 prodigy feat.)
Expertise 13 of 18 (6 Rogue (4 Any, Natural, Survival), 4 Bard (4 Any), 2 Cleric (2 from Arcana, History, Religion since Nature must be obtained by Rogue) and 1 Prodigy feat (Any)).
Now, if you don't fancy going Bard or Rogue, then of the other 2 choices you can either be:
Aerini Elf (+2 Dex, +1 Int or Wis depending on High Elf or Wood Elf style)
Human, Half-Orc, Half-Elf (Prodigy feat)
So it is absolutely possible to make the following: (These examples use point buy to reflect the bonuses, rolls may change them by up to +2)
Level 5 Half Orc Barbarian with Prodigy feat for a +9 bonus to Athletics (advantage while raging). That's a fiesty Grappler.
Level 5 Variant Human with Prodigy and Observant feats for a Passive Wisdom score of 24 (Base 10 +5 Observant +6 Expertise +3 Wisdom). Frustrate your DM every time!
Level 5 Variant Human Wizard with Prodigy, Str and Int of 16 and the Haste spell. +9 Athletics to grapple, +9 Sleight of Hand (See Xanathar's guide section 2 for Tying a Knot) to hog tie them up in combat... Sooey!
Level 5 Aerini Woof Elf Ranger. Expert that Survival to track down your foes with +9 Survival bonus, regardless of worrying how to apply your Natural Explorer bonus. Or instead enjoy having a +9 to any animal handling check you need to make.... never fall off your elk again!
Level 5 Variant Human Paladin 1 Ranger 3 Wizard 1 Take Prodigy as your free feat for a +8 Deception and convince your entire party you haven't been reading too much Dan Telfer and make them believe your build isn't a totally crazy mix of awesome. (With point buy you need a 13+ in Str, Dex, Con, Int and Cha to pull this off so your stats are 13/13/10/13/13/13 with +1 to whatever the hell you feel like). Also the Ranger is 3 so you can take Beastmaster and make your giant poisonous snake do all the work anyway!
I am 100% in agreement that Expertise in amazing and fun, but you don't need to be a Bard nor Rogue to enjoy the benefits.
Sorry man, this is similar to an Abserd build. Sure you can everything but you'll suck at all of it too. (don't forget, even with expertise, if you have negative stats you'll still have a low skill).... and why does a single PC need to have EVERY skill? Sure there are skills every PC may want to have -- acrobatics may be useful for the entire party (especially if the DM loves traps), perception is the universal skill of everyone, etc... but even in a group of all CHA users (bard, pally, sorc, warlock -- which I have in one of my groups btw) let each player pick a 'specialization'... Let one player be 'good cop' with persuasion, let another be 'bad cop' with intimidation, let another be sneaky with deception, etc... Especially in social interactions, whether a player is good or bad at RP, it gets uncomfortable and boring when there is only 1 star of the show.
Just like a player shouldn't be the tank AND healer AND damager AND controller (which, if you could, wow), let others do things too
I've been thinking about this too, and I think I agree. If you are focusing on pure "Power" and how to maximize any build, I'd say grab Rogue first, get those 2 extra skills, and grab Barbarian 2nd so you can add Constitution to AC. You focus on Dexterity and Constitution, and you have a build that has high AC, HP, and attack if you give it a light weapon (Rapier) you also have a great chance to hit. The other 18 levels can be spent on whatever you want.
Picking up Rogue at any later level only gives you light armor, thieves tools, and a additional skill.
Picking up Barbarian at any later level gives you Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial weapons, so you can even equip a shield with your Rapier giving you a 22 AC base with no magical items.
The only time you shouldn't grab these two levels first is if your trying to get some specific ability that is at level 19 or 20 with a class, but 95% of your playtime with a class is probably going to be with the lower levels, and just being mathematically good at combat is probably going to be more handy than a ability you can use once a day or combat.
I would really love to be proven wrong about this, but the value of Stats in 5e are extremely unbalanced.
Strength has little or no use and is effectively the equivalent of Dexterity, only it does not help your AC like Dex does and unless your using the variant carrying capacity rules provides little other benefits. I know you can wear heavier armors, but those come later, and there are easier ways to kick your AC that high, not to mention if you have a class that simply is not proficient with those armors. I don't even really consider the movement penalty to be worth much of note if you have a Strength of 15 or less while wearing heavier armors, as 20 feet is usually enough to get you into the battle.
Dex is King, as it helps you to hit, evade hits, improves your damage, and is one of the more important saves as well as boosting initiative and many skills use dex.
Con is for HP, which is handy, but will only really help you survive longer. though tying it to AC with the Barbarian makes it the best survival stat.
Int, Wis, and Cha are all basically only for casters depending on your flavor. ya there is a little room for Charisma to get a bump over the other two if you wanna do social things and make social checks. Though Wisdom has the same argument with Perception, and a few other skills, and Intelligence for the know it all. A lot of skills are tied to these 3 stats, and are actually rather comparable to each other, but none help you survive the same way Dex and Con does.
Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but generally speaking, this is how the game works.I know there are fringe classes (like the blade singer who add Int to AC and Attack and Damage, but that really only further proves my point, as in that case, you focus on Dex and Int instead of Con.) so don't post those. I'd like to see a honest and general argument for why getting 2 extra skills is worse than say the Monk, and getting to Add Wisdom to AC and having 1d6 punches, or Paladin, or Fighter.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I kind of hope I get proven wrong here.
Taking your first level in Rogue nets you 4 choice proficiency's and 2 expertise's. As as added bonus there's also sneak attack.
Starting Bard and going to 3 nets you 3 choice proficiency's, 2 expertise's, and JoaT. As an added bonus you get a subclass, of which there are options for every build and Lore gives 3 more choice proficiency's.
Then the rest of your levels go to whatever build you actually want.
The major benefit gained by doing that really makes it seem like it's just an inherently better choice for every build, single class and multi class alike.
Just figure out whether you want the unlocks from 19 levels or 17 levels (scaled down for characters that wont reach 20) for the rest of your build and take the Rouge 1 or Bard 3 accordingly.
As for the notion of not getting a proficiency your main class starts with, not only are there feats for that, but there are rules allowing you to gain proficiency's just by having your character spend time and money learning it.
I am not convinced. In the first place for many characters creating a backstory that would result in a character having some rogue / bard talents would be convoluted at best but I will ignore that and assume you are just working on making the most powerful build you can without considering role play
I would also point out that only a small amount of the game is at your highest level so rather if your campaign will finish at level 10 it isn't what you miss by being only level 9 in your main class but what you lose by always being a level behind the curve up to level 10.
Rogue (why does almost everyone type Rouge which is French for red?)
Bard
If you want to play a character in heavy armor and start as a Rogue you will need 2 feats to be able to wear that heavy armor. If you want to use a heavy weapon and start as a Rogue you would need another feat to gain proficiency in those weapons. If you want to use a shield and start as a Rogue you would need another feat for that. Assuming you start as a Variant Human, that would mean you are level 12 before you can pick up a battle axe, shield, and chaimail, or you could start as a Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin and get proficiency in all of that at level 1 and still have a feat available for Great Weapon Master (assumes Variant Human).
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If you want to play as a Monk, Sneak Attack will be useless because you cannot use it on your Unarmed Strikes because they are not Finesse Weapons. You would also have to wait an extra level until 3rd level to gain any Ki points for you Martial Arts abilities, which is why one plays Monk in the first place.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
If you want to be a spell caster throwing spells all over Sneak Attack is useless because it cannot be applied to Spell Attacks. Slowing down your character progression by taking a useless level in rogue means the other kids are throwing Fireball around and you’re still using Shatter.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I would think taking 2 levels of warlock for the invocations would be beneficial, devils sight, fiendish vigor are great abilities to have.
There is also the multiclass requirements that may throw off your stats. Artificers, wizards, clerics, druids, and rangers have other stats to focus on besides CHA. Barbarians and paladins have other things to focus on besides DEX.
There are certainly some situations to consider multiclassing, but there is always a cost in doing so to consider.
I love the dip as warlock. Especially as a varient human to get devils sight. Think that has tremendous benefits especially with a wizard casting darkness on you. The spells on short rest are very useful as well.
I am currently playing a rogue scout to lv4 then switching to Ranger Gloomstaker. Like how those skills work together. With urban bounty hunter background.Having fun building all the background.
That gives you a lot of proficiencies for certain, but I'd /never/, ever MC around which proficiencies I can learn.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I assume you are referring to Expertise being absurdly unbalanced in 5th edition (as a Thief player in 2nd and Rogue player in 3rd I still gravitate towards Expertise classes in 5th naturally) there are a couple of other ways to gain Expertise:
Aerini Elf get Expertise as a racial feat (Eberron book, NOT Eberron setting limited). Prodigy feat for Humans and Half Elves/Orcs (Xanathars), Knowledge Cleric (2 of 4 choices). This isn't as flexible, but it will definitely cover most situations where you only want a single skill with expertise.
If you are looking to go Expertise-crazy then you'll end up going Half Elf Lore Bard 10 Scout Rogue 6 Knowledge Cleric 1 build: (If you want to drop or don't use feats you would need to go Warlock 2 to make it back to 18 skills)
Proficiencies 20 out of 18 skills (2 Half Elf, 2 Background, 6 Rogue (4 1st level, 2 extra from Scout at 3rd), 4 Bard (1 multiclassing Bard, 3 Lore at 3rd), 2 Cleric (Knowledge at 1st) 3 skilled feat, 1 prodigy feat.)
Expertise 13 of 18 (6 Rogue (4 Any, Natural, Survival), 4 Bard (4 Any), 2 Cleric (2 from Arcana, History, Religion since Nature must be obtained by Rogue) and 1 Prodigy feat (Any)).
Now, if you don't fancy going Bard or Rogue, then of the other 2 choices you can either be:
Aerini Elf (+2 Dex, +1 Int or Wis depending on High Elf or Wood Elf style)
Human, Half-Orc, Half-Elf (Prodigy feat)
So it is absolutely possible to make the following: (These examples use point buy to reflect the bonuses, rolls may change them by up to +2)
Level 5 Half Orc Barbarian with Prodigy feat for a +9 bonus to Athletics (advantage while raging). That's a fiesty Grappler.
Level 5 Variant Human with Prodigy and Observant feats for a Passive Wisdom score of 24 (Base 10 +5 Observant +6 Expertise +3 Wisdom). Frustrate your DM every time!
Level 5 Variant Human Wizard with Prodigy, Str and Int of 16 and the Haste spell. +9 Athletics to grapple, +9 Sleight of Hand (See Xanathar's guide section 2 for Tying a Knot) to hog tie them up in combat... Sooey!
Level 5 Aerini Woof Elf Ranger. Expert that Survival to track down your foes with +9 Survival bonus, regardless of worrying how to apply your Natural Explorer bonus. Or instead enjoy having a +9 to any animal handling check you need to make.... never fall off your elk again!
Level 5 Variant Human Paladin 1 Ranger 3 Wizard 1 Take Prodigy as your free feat for a +8 Deception and convince your entire party you haven't been reading too much Dan Telfer and make them believe your build isn't a totally crazy mix of awesome. (With point buy you need a 13+ in Str, Dex, Con, Int and Cha to pull this off so your stats are 13/13/10/13/13/13 with +1 to whatever the hell you feel like). Also the Ranger is 3 so you can take Beastmaster and make your giant poisonous snake do all the work anyway!
I am 100% in agreement that Expertise in amazing and fun, but you don't need to be a Bard nor Rogue to enjoy the benefits.
see this person gets it, but also knows about stuff I don't own and therefor can't read about (here on dndbeyond)
although tbh I was focusing less on how good expertise is and more on how good having "all the skills" is
Sorry man, this is similar to an Abserd build. Sure you can everything but you'll suck at all of it too. (don't forget, even with expertise, if you have negative stats you'll still have a low skill).... and why does a single PC need to have EVERY skill? Sure there are skills every PC may want to have -- acrobatics may be useful for the entire party (especially if the DM loves traps), perception is the universal skill of everyone, etc... but even in a group of all CHA users (bard, pally, sorc, warlock -- which I have in one of my groups btw) let each player pick a 'specialization'... Let one player be 'good cop' with persuasion, let another be 'bad cop' with intimidation, let another be sneaky with deception, etc... Especially in social interactions, whether a player is good or bad at RP, it gets uncomfortable and boring when there is only 1 star of the show.
Just like a player shouldn't be the tank AND healer AND damager AND controller (which, if you could, wow), let others do things too
I've been thinking about this too, and I think I agree. If you are focusing on pure "Power" and how to maximize any build, I'd say grab Rogue first, get those 2 extra skills, and grab Barbarian 2nd so you can add Constitution to AC. You focus on Dexterity and Constitution, and you have a build that has high AC, HP, and attack if you give it a light weapon (Rapier) you also have a great chance to hit. The other 18 levels can be spent on whatever you want.
Picking up Rogue at any later level only gives you light armor, thieves tools, and a additional skill.
Picking up Barbarian at any later level gives you Shields, Simple Weapons, and Martial weapons, so you can even equip a shield with your Rapier giving you a 22 AC base with no magical items.
The only time you shouldn't grab these two levels first is if your trying to get some specific ability that is at level 19 or 20 with a class, but 95% of your playtime with a class is probably going to be with the lower levels, and just being mathematically good at combat is probably going to be more handy than a ability you can use once a day or combat.
I would really love to be proven wrong about this, but the value of Stats in 5e are extremely unbalanced.
Strength has little or no use and is effectively the equivalent of Dexterity, only it does not help your AC like Dex does and unless your using the variant carrying capacity rules provides little other benefits. I know you can wear heavier armors, but those come later, and there are easier ways to kick your AC that high, not to mention if you have a class that simply is not proficient with those armors. I don't even really consider the movement penalty to be worth much of note if you have a Strength of 15 or less while wearing heavier armors, as 20 feet is usually enough to get you into the battle.
Dex is King, as it helps you to hit, evade hits, improves your damage, and is one of the more important saves as well as boosting initiative and many skills use dex.
Con is for HP, which is handy, but will only really help you survive longer. though tying it to AC with the Barbarian makes it the best survival stat.
Int, Wis, and Cha are all basically only for casters depending on your flavor. ya there is a little room for Charisma to get a bump over the other two if you wanna do social things and make social checks. Though Wisdom has the same argument with Perception, and a few other skills, and Intelligence for the know it all. A lot of skills are tied to these 3 stats, and are actually rather comparable to each other, but none help you survive the same way Dex and Con does.
Like I said, I'd love to be proven wrong on this, but generally speaking, this is how the game works.I know there are fringe classes (like the blade singer who add Int to AC and Attack and Damage, but that really only further proves my point, as in that case, you focus on Dex and Int instead of Con.) so don't post those. I'd like to see a honest and general argument for why getting 2 extra skills is worse than say the Monk, and getting to Add Wisdom to AC and having 1d6 punches, or Paladin, or Fighter.