In 25 years of playing D&D and endless efforts at homebrewing rules, and homebrewing settings (successful at both), I came to the determination that the game is designed with three key things in mind: Pulped Tolkien Fantasy, & Heroic Adventures. I've come around to having the opinion that if I don't want dwarves, elves, magical wizards, heroic knights, savage orcs, and scheming dragons, with heroic player characters that can fight any enemy or overcome any obstacle, then I shouldn't be playing D&D. The purpose of this point being, settings that get away from those two themes: Pulped Tolkien Fantasy, & Heroic Adventures, are inherently worse off for being played in D&D at all. Eberron for example, is a great setting and a lousy D&D setting, it's compulsion to adapt D&D into a setting that isn't D&D is the issue. Same applies for Ravnica and even some classical settings like Planescape and Ravenloft. Mind you, they can all work just fine in D&D, but they would be better off as games of their own, with systems that support their intended feeling better. Ravenloft in particular, would benefit from being played as a Basic Role-Playing system for its themes of gothic horror are only hurt by the invincible, capable PCs.
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I don't fault your lack of enthusiasm for Ravnica and Theros. They were, after all, MtG settings that were crammed into D&D. There is definitely a trend for older gamers to prefer the Forgotten Realms. I only started with 3rd edition (Greyhawk) and our actual setting was agnostic because we were teenagers and new to worldbuilding.
I have a regular group of three players in their 20s and one player turning 36. Myself, I am 30. The 20-somethings are new to the hobby, though they've read some of the books from the Forgotten Realms. Two of them were encouraged to try it after Critical Role. The only person who likes the Forgotten Realms is, you guessed it, the 36-year old who's been playing since AD&D.
I'm not the arbiter of what makes a setting D&D. Nobody is.
To me, the Forgotten Realms make a poor setting for players. The lore is opaque and insurmountable. The gods and NPCs make anything less than epic-level action ultimately trivial. There have been so many retcons and inconsistencies that I've had to pull my hair out trying to make things work. Even if a player alludes to the lore, there's a really good chance that the other players won't even realize it. Heck, I played a character in organized play with ~30 different people and nobody picked up on the fact that he hailed from a specific canon location. There's just that much, and I don't think it leaves DMs or players much room to create.
I think its an antiquated setting, a relic of a bygone era as much as chainmail bikinis and Arthurian legends. If that's your thing, go for it, but I don't think FR appeals to new players in the same way it appealed to us in the 80s and 90s. I think that's evident in the shift of gameplay mechanics. We've shed the likes of absolute alignment restrictions, mandatory cleric deities, and 'gotcha' monsters that had a mythical puzzle to solve. Hell, I love Tolkien, but I'd never try to run mass combat with a modern group, or put them in an unwinnable situation that guarantees a PC death. We're also seeing large portions of the lore and setting needing revision (see: Chult, the Shou, and the Vistani) as the game attracts a younger, more socially conscious crowd.
This is a wall of text to say I'm disappointed in Icewind Dale. I'm not interested in more Setting-specific books. Give me more versatile lore, give my players more options, but don't push another adventure path at us. As an accomplished, successful homebrewer, how many of these adventures would you say were good? I kind of liked Ravenloft, but none of the other adventure books have been interesting enough to push my players through.
You are correct, in a sense. I am 45 and I have a lot of nostalgia for the Realms. I am blah on various specific locations, such as Cormyr, Neverwinter, most of the Moonsea, but the Crystal Shard (1st Drizzt novel) was one of the first D&D novels that I ever read, and Ten Towns made quite the impression on me. Especially being a settlement of outcasts, where your merit was based on how you can contribute to the community, was a big appeal to me.
I think the bigger strength is that all of this can be used on an agnostic level, divorced of Forgotten Realms. I understand wanting other settings, but there are many third parties that are working on them. There is a Greyhawk Reborn group on Facebook that is running an Organized Play set in Greyhawk. Trampas Whiteman is working on some Dragonlance stuff for 5e, and is willing to share some on the Dragonlance Facebook group. Robert Aducci has a lot of great stuff for Dark Sun!
The stuff is out there and being created by real developers! It just is not sanctioned, it is fan-driven. Make use of those resources instead of being disappointed that WotC is not putting their energy in it. They have to run a business and their reduced release schedule allows for only so much at a time...
I've been less than hyped about a lot of recent releases (Wildemount is playing mostly to the new crowd, Acquisitions Incorporated is just plain silly, I only like Ravnica because I like MTG, and Rick & Morty...don't even get me started on that.) I'm SO HAPPY that this is coming out now! It's good to see something classic and dark when most D&D games are becoming off-the-wall and silly. My faith in Wizards for understanding that it's player base isn't just Critters and memers (nothing wrong with those things, it's just not me) has been restored.
(And please don't dismiss me as a grognard...I'm a college kid! I just like classic D&D games.)
Happy about Icewind Dale, not so happy about horror. I'm not sure the adventure will be my cup of tea, and that makes me sad because I /like/ Icewind Dale and I am a fan of Auril.
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
It would be a great resource for anyone running a Ten Towns campaign. I was using the Legacy of the Crystal Shard book when I ran a Savage Worlds game for a while when I was between PF and 5e. 5e had just come out and I wasn't too impressed with the playtest packets for D&D Next. I love it as a setting, and I can see the horror theme not being fun for a lot of people. I, for one, do not enjoy horror films, but I do like an element of it in my games, especially when I am running a game like Acq Inc with a theme of silliness. It contrast makes for great memories.
I've been less than hyped about a lot of recent releases (Wildemount is playing mostly to the new crowd, Acquisitions Incorporated is just plain silly, I only like Ravnica because I like MTG, and Rick & Morty...don't even get me started on that.) I'm SO HAPPY that this is coming out now! It's good to see something classic and dark when most D&D games are becoming off-the-wall and silly. My faith in Wizards for understanding that it's player base isn't just Critters and memers (nothing wrong with those things, it's just not me) has been restored.
(And please don't dismiss me as a grognard...I'm a college kid! I just like classic D&D games.)
Pretty much exactly this. I don't care if I am dismissed as a grognard, I am not going to spend my money on stupid crap like Acquisitions Incorporated. I dislike silly.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Happy about Icewind Dale, not so happy about horror. I'm not sure the adventure will be my cup of tea, and that makes me sad because I /like/ Icewind Dale and I am a fan of Auril.
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
I will be interested to see how "horror" it is. The tone of the videos has me quite skeptical, but I will certainly purchase it for the spells and any lore I can get out of it.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Happy about Icewind Dale, not so happy about horror. I'm not sure the adventure will be my cup of tea, and that makes me sad because I /like/ Icewind Dale and I am a fan of Auril.
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
I will be interested to see how "horror" it is. The tone of the videos has me quite skeptical, but I will certainly purchase it for the spells and any lore I can get out of it.
If it's horror like Curse of Strahd, that's not really horror. That's spooky gross stuff, gothic drama, and creepy NPCs. If this is actually "horror" in the sense that the encounters will scare you and give you nightmares, this probably isn't for me. (Not those nightmares)
I’d say that getting horror across at the table in a warm house with friends and snacks is very hard to pull off and you really need all the players and the dm to buy in to make that work. One bad pun and everybody is laughing, horror gone. I personally cannot not watch horror movies, the first Alien for example movie was nuts but I can see me enjoying it at the table. It could be refreshing to see new themes. They said that the environment will be an enemy too but depending on party composition this stops pretty fast with rangers, druids and certain spells. Leumunds tiny hut, anybody? Or conjure food and drink...
The cold environment will be much easier to visualize for people up North. Imagine trying to imagine it here in Hawaii. ^_^ I am going to do my darndest to try!
Happy about Icewind Dale, not so happy about horror. I'm not sure the adventure will be my cup of tea, and that makes me sad because I /like/ Icewind Dale and I am a fan of Auril.
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
I will be interested to see how "horror" it is. The tone of the videos has me quite skeptical, but I will certainly purchase it for the spells and any lore I can get out of it.
If it's horror like Curse of Strahd, that's not really horror. That's spooky gross stuff, gothic drama, and creepy NPCs. If this is actually "horror" in the sense that the encounters will scare you and give you nightmares, this probably isn't for me. (Not those nightmares)
They said that it would be more modern, not gothic
I personally love modern horror games. Ran a Dread game a few months ago and everyone at my table was legitimately scared...including me! But it does require buy-in from everyone. I feel like D&D doesn't lend itself to horror, though, so I'd see this more as "dark fantasy." Not the best campaign for jokester groups, though, which is fine by me.
I feel like D&D doesn't lend itself to horror, though, so I'd see this more as "dark fantasy."
it depends on how they choose to deliver it. If they miss the mark with "modern horror" as much as they did with the "heist" in dragonheist, we're in for a rough ride.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Happy about Icewind Dale, not so happy about horror. I'm not sure the adventure will be my cup of tea, and that makes me sad because I /like/ Icewind Dale and I am a fan of Auril.
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
I will be interested to see how "horror" it is. The tone of the videos has me quite skeptical, but I will certainly purchase it for the spells and any lore I can get out of it.
If it's horror like Curse of Strahd, that's not really horror. That's spooky gross stuff, gothic drama, and creepy NPCs. If this is actually "horror" in the sense that the encounters will scare you and give you nightmares, this probably isn't for me. (Not those nightmares)
They said that it would be more modern, not gothic
Yeah. I didn't mean that it would be the same type of horror, I meant that if it is on the same scare-level as curse of strahd, that's not really going to be scary.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I'm looking forward to it. Already bought it on D&D beyond and will probably get it from the local game shop as well (I like reading a physical copy).
As others have pointed out the weakness of Forgotten Realms (that it is overdeveloped and has an overly complex history that limits the freedom of the DM) is also its greatest strength. If players go off script and end up in Waterdeep you can roll with it. If, however, you are a DM who is more keen to develop their own world and feels they build a richer and more suitable world for their players than a 'kitchen sink of fantasy tropes' setting then you'll probably use the product by lifting select scenarios and adding it to your own campaign.
I do find it strange when I see complaints that run along the line of, "I have this vision of a really original campaign and I don't find these mass market products really fit that..."
Of course not! They are mass market products. If you have the time and creativity you probably do come up with something better for your players. And that is great. Lucky them! But there might still be things you can lift and twist and slap in from a product like this.
I will forever buy the adventures for D&D 5e books solely in the physical version. I will buy this book, just because of the monsters, spells, magic items, and other stuff I can use in my campaigns, but I don't need those on D&D Beyond.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Respectfully, I have to disagree. I don't fault your lack of enthusiasm for Ravnica and Theros. They were, after all, MtG settings that were crammed into D&D. There is definitely a trend for older gamers to prefer the Forgotten Realms. I only started with 3rd edition (Greyhawk) and our actual setting was agnostic because we were teenagers and new to worldbuilding.
I have a regular group of three players in their 20s and one player turning 36. Myself, I am 30. The 20-somethings are new to the hobby, though they've read some of the books from the Forgotten Realms. Two of them were encouraged to try it after Critical Role. The only person who likes the Forgotten Realms is, you guessed it, the 36-year old who's been playing since AD&D.
I'm not the arbiter of what makes a setting D&D. Nobody is.
To me, the Forgotten Realms make a poor setting for players. The lore is opaque and insurmountable. The gods and NPCs make anything less than epic-level action ultimately trivial. There have been so many retcons and inconsistencies that I've had to pull my hair out trying to make things work. Even if a player alludes to the lore, there's a really good chance that the other players won't even realize it. Heck, I played a character in organized play with ~30 different people and nobody picked up on the fact that he hailed from a specific canon location. There's just that much, and I don't think it leaves DMs or players much room to create.
I think its an antiquated setting, a relic of a bygone era as much as chainmail bikinis and Arthurian legends. If that's your thing, go for it, but I don't think FR appeals to new players in the same way it appealed to us in the 80s and 90s. I think that's evident in the shift of gameplay mechanics. We've shed the likes of absolute alignment restrictions, mandatory cleric deities, and 'gotcha' monsters that had a mythical puzzle to solve. Hell, I love Tolkien, but I'd never try to run mass combat with a modern group, or put them in an unwinnable situation that guarantees a PC death. We're also seeing large portions of the lore and setting needing revision (see: Chult, the Shou, and the Vistani) as the game attracts a younger, more socially conscious crowd.
This is a wall of text to say I'm disappointed in Icewind Dale. I'm not interested in more Setting-specific books. Give me more versatile lore, give my players more options, but don't push another adventure path at us. As an accomplished, successful homebrewer, how many of these adventures would you say were good? I kind of liked Ravenloft, but none of the other adventure books have been interesting enough to push my players through.
Another medical problem. Indefinite hiatus. Sorry, all.
You are correct, in a sense. I am 45 and I have a lot of nostalgia for the Realms. I am blah on various specific locations, such as Cormyr, Neverwinter, most of the Moonsea, but the Crystal Shard (1st Drizzt novel) was one of the first D&D novels that I ever read, and Ten Towns made quite the impression on me. Especially being a settlement of outcasts, where your merit was based on how you can contribute to the community, was a big appeal to me.
I think the bigger strength is that all of this can be used on an agnostic level, divorced of Forgotten Realms. I understand wanting other settings, but there are many third parties that are working on them. There is a Greyhawk Reborn group on Facebook that is running an Organized Play set in Greyhawk. Trampas Whiteman is working on some Dragonlance stuff for 5e, and is willing to share some on the Dragonlance Facebook group. Robert Aducci has a lot of great stuff for Dark Sun!
The stuff is out there and being created by real developers! It just is not sanctioned, it is fan-driven. Make use of those resources instead of being disappointed that WotC is not putting their energy in it. They have to run a business and their reduced release schedule allows for only so much at a time...
I've been less than hyped about a lot of recent releases (Wildemount is playing mostly to the new crowd, Acquisitions Incorporated is just plain silly, I only like Ravnica because I like MTG, and Rick & Morty...don't even get me started on that.) I'm SO HAPPY that this is coming out now! It's good to see something classic and dark when most D&D games are becoming off-the-wall and silly. My faith in Wizards for understanding that it's player base isn't just Critters and memers (nothing wrong with those things, it's just not me) has been restored.
(And please don't dismiss me as a grognard...I'm a college kid! I just like classic D&D games.)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Highlighting that there are a million ways to play this game!!! ^_^
Exactly! :-)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Very similar here. I helped my daughter run a crystal shard campaign several years ago (10+ players, I DM’d one group when the party split). Never finished it, but enjoyed the setting, so was excited to see it again. But I have no tolerance for horror. (Not judging those who enjoy it)
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
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It would be a great resource for anyone running a Ten Towns campaign. I was using the Legacy of the Crystal Shard book when I ran a Savage Worlds game for a while when I was between PF and 5e. 5e had just come out and I wasn't too impressed with the playtest packets for D&D Next. I love it as a setting, and I can see the horror theme not being fun for a lot of people. I, for one, do not enjoy horror films, but I do like an element of it in my games, especially when I am running a game like Acq Inc with a theme of silliness. It contrast makes for great memories.
Pretty much exactly this. I don't care if I am dismissed as a grognard, I am not going to spend my money on stupid crap like Acquisitions Incorporated. I dislike silly.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I will be interested to see how "horror" it is. The tone of the videos has me quite skeptical, but I will certainly purchase it for the spells and any lore I can get out of it.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
If it's horror like Curse of Strahd, that's not really horror. That's spooky gross stuff, gothic drama, and creepy NPCs. If this is actually "horror" in the sense that the encounters will scare you and give you nightmares, this probably isn't for me. (Not those nightmares)
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I’d say that getting horror across at the table in a warm house with friends and snacks is very hard to pull off and you really need all the players and the dm to buy in to make that work. One bad pun and everybody is laughing, horror gone.
I personally cannot not watch horror movies, the first Alien for example movie was nuts but I can see me enjoying it at the table. It could be refreshing to see new themes.
They said that the environment will be an enemy too but depending on party composition this stops pretty fast with rangers, druids and certain spells. Leumunds tiny hut, anybody? Or conjure food and drink...
The cold environment will be much easier to visualize for people up North. Imagine trying to imagine it here in Hawaii. ^_^ I am going to do my darndest to try!
They said that it would be more modern, not gothic
I personally love modern horror games. Ran a Dread game a few months ago and everyone at my table was legitimately scared...including me! But it does require buy-in from everyone. I feel like D&D doesn't lend itself to horror, though, so I'd see this more as "dark fantasy." Not the best campaign for jokester groups, though, which is fine by me.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
it depends on how they choose to deliver it. If they miss the mark with "modern horror" as much as they did with the "heist" in dragonheist, we're in for a rough ride.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Yeah. I didn't mean that it would be the same type of horror, I meant that if it is on the same scare-level as curse of strahd, that's not really going to be scary.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Horror in D&D is sort of like a slasher film that's been edited down to get a PG-13 rating for the theaters.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'm looking forward to it. Already bought it on D&D beyond and will probably get it from the local game shop as well (I like reading a physical copy).
As others have pointed out the weakness of Forgotten Realms (that it is overdeveloped and has an overly complex history that limits the freedom of the DM) is also its greatest strength. If players go off script and end up in Waterdeep you can roll with it. If, however, you are a DM who is more keen to develop their own world and feels they build a richer and more suitable world for their players than a 'kitchen sink of fantasy tropes' setting then you'll probably use the product by lifting select scenarios and adding it to your own campaign.
I do find it strange when I see complaints that run along the line of, "I have this vision of a really original campaign and I don't find these mass market products really fit that..."
Of course not! They are mass market products. If you have the time and creativity you probably do come up with something better for your players. And that is great. Lucky them! But there might still be things you can lift and twist and slap in from a product like this.
I will forever buy the adventures for D&D 5e books solely in the physical version. I will buy this book, just because of the monsters, spells, magic items, and other stuff I can use in my campaigns, but I don't need those on D&D Beyond.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Maybe the spells, but yeah, not the whole book.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.