If you're a 20th level paladin, taking a level of fighter provides limited benefits. You get an inconsequential boost to HP, a new fighting style that probably doesn't actually benefit you by this point, and a self-heal that's too weak to be useful.
This was part of my reasoning when making a level 21-30 paladin class/subclass rules.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Use the Epic Boons in the DMG and Ability Score Increases above 20 up until level 25. Then use some homebrew stuff since the PCs are basically demigods by then. Also druids get immortality at level 20 and the Epic Boon of immortality in the DMG is also a thing. So immortality is somewhat underpowered.
Eh *shrug*. I wouldn't complain or be upset if WotC were to put out an epic levels book, but it's certainly not something I'm clamoring for. I really thought it was cool stuff back when I was a teenager, but the kinds of stories that require epic levels just aren't as interesting to me as an adult.
one thing I don't want is spell levels beyond 9th. Getting slots above 9th is ok but to keep it from getting too insane keep the spell level system intact. However what would be cool is a spell development/research system as a feature of full spell casting classes that make it to epic levels.
I don't think we'll see many additional rules for epic levels coming. Those high levels are rarely played, and I'm glad on each new edition they focus more on making low levels interesting as they get more play time.
If you happen to reach level 20 and the group wants to keep playing, there are some rules you can apply here and there, but you'll need to homebrew a lot. I personally prefer to close the characters arch stories on a satisfying way and make them part of the world.
Most games end before 15, so it would be serving a market that is a very small minority of their players.
I would rather see official adventures that cover the 15-20 range first (there is currently 1).
This is my reaction as well, although for levels 15+ you probably need to just homebrew your own campaign. I understand most adventures wind down before you get to level 15 so what's the point except to theorize what your level 30 character build would be.
I think in AD&D most character classes ended about level 16 to 18 and above that you just got 1 HP / level or something like that. Groups can just homebrew the rest.
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Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
one thing I don't want is spell levels beyond 9th. Getting slots above 9th is ok but to keep it from getting too insane keep the spell level system intact. However what would be cool is a spell development/research system as a feature of full spell casting classes that make it to epic levels.
I think spells above 9th should become difficult and time consuming rituals with very specific components.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I voted yes. Sure...why not? I do agree with those people who point out that 5E is meant to be simple so, implementing level advancement rules should be too. This idea may be too boring to some but, here it is:
From 21 and up to 30, just give the advancement that was given between level 1 and 10 again. if it was Extra Attack, you do that. Add another Fighting Style, etc. Add a secondary effect to a Feature like Second Wind, it does more healing or it negates a condition, whatever. At 30, everyone gets uncapped stats and all ASI progression pays out double stats or feats AND, HP gains are doubled(so, level 30-40 would follow level 10-20 advancement gains but, boosted).
I'm a minimalist. Why recreate the wheel when you can just ride someone else's bike?
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
D&D needs better support for epic level play before they do epic levels, methinks. It's one of the increasingly innumerable things that bugs me about this game. A lot of the hook for getting people in is all the awesome badass shit you can do at higher levels, the super crazy Greater Arcana spells, the high-level class features that sound amazing...and then everybody hits sixth level and goes "WHELP, that was a good campaign. Time to retire these heroes and start over again at level 1, literally the absolute worst part of D&D, because high-level play is for losers!" There's zero real official material for play above 12th level, and the game devs themselves have admitted that they don't like high level D&D.
That sounds like a thing that needs to be fixed, because if you're going to sell people on all the amazing shit that happens in the late game and then stack the deck such that less than a percent of players ever get to the late game? You dun goofed.
D&D needs better support for epic level play before they do epic levels, methinks. It's one of the increasingly innumerable things that bugs me about this game. A lot of the hook for getting people in is all the awesome badass shit you can do at higher levels, the super crazy Greater Arcana spells, the high-level class features that sound amazing...and then everybody hits sixth level and goes "WHELP, that was a good campaign. Time to retire these heroes and start over again at level 1, literally the absolute worst part of D&D, because high-level play is for losers!" There's zero real official material for play above 12th level, and the game devs themselves have admitted that they don't like high level D&D.
That sounds like a thing that needs to be fixed, because if you're going to sell people on all the amazing shit that happens in the late game and then stack the deck such that less than a percent of players ever get to the late game? You dun goofed.
Yeah, i don't get that "we finished this Module we're lvl 11 but lets start over by doing another module with other characters".
I'm Dming CoS for the group, once its over and they are out of Barovia i plan to either Run Deepwater or ToA with the same characters and just change the encounters CR (found an online tool that lets you change the CR of creatures and will change the stats appropriatly, its still in Developpement so there's some weird results like a CR 1 creature that gets bumped to Cr 7 and suddenly his former 1d4+4 melee attack becomes a 20d4+4 melee attack..., but thats easy to solve)
Honestly thats the kinda tool WotC and DnDB should make, a CR slider, so no matter what Module you use, you can always easely adapt it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
I, for one, loved them. :)
I think the tacit question is not whether the rules should exist, but whether the devs should expend the time and effort on developing a new epic level system when most people aren't going to use it. If there are 2-3 books per year, and maybe one crunchy book, I see epic level stuff as very low priority next to things like wrapping up psionics, giving fair treatment to planar games, etc.
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
I, for one, loved them. :)
I think the tacit question is not whether the rules should exist, but whether the devs should expend the time and effort on developing a new epic level system when most people aren't going to use it. If there are 2-3 books per year, and maybe one crunchy book, I see epic level stuff as very low priority next to things like wrapping up psionics, giving fair treatment to planar games, etc.
to be fair honestly planar adventures would most likely come out alongside epic rules. Traversing planes is usually done at very high levels 15+ to epic normally.
I think the tacit question is not whether the rules should exist, but whether the devs should expend the time and effort on developing a new epic level system when most people aren't going to use it. If there are 2-3 books per year, and maybe one crunchy book, I see epic level stuff as very low priority next to things like wrapping up psionics, giving fair treatment to planar games, etc.
That's not really the purpose of the question, but if it plays into your answer of it, it's a valid concern.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
I, for one, loved them. :)
I think the tacit question is not whether the rules should exist, but whether the devs should expend the time and effort on developing a new epic level system when most people aren't going to use it. If there are 2-3 books per year, and maybe one crunchy book, I see epic level stuff as very low priority next to things like wrapping up psionics, giving fair treatment to planar games, etc.
Flipside ... how many people are necessarily going to use Guildmasters of Ravnica ...? Or, how many will use Mythic Odysseys of Theros ...?
Not even Psionics will have a universal appeal, really.
Flipside ... how many people are necessarily going to use Guildmasters of Ravnica ...? Or, how many will use Mythic Odysseys of Theros ...?
Not even Psionics will have a universal appeal, really.
I mean sure, but that's kinda a straw man argument. Again, supposing we get one crunchy book per year, and the rest are shameless MTG-plug, niche campaign settings, cash-grabs not, I'd rather they use the resources not otherwise earmarked by Hasbro for broader stuff. Thankfully, the flood of recent UA character options seems to suggest something big on the way. As we've seen, it'd be hard to justify taking up more than an appendix of some book for epic rules based on the way the vast majority of folks play their games.
That's not really the purpose of the question, but if it plays into your answer of it, it's a valid concern.
I mean, a poll isn't really that interesting if what it's saying is "should we have niche feature X?" ignoring the opportunity cost of X. Should we have a 100-page book on flumphs? I'd say obviously yes so long as it doesn't divert resources away from other stuff.
But even if it were costless, I still think epic boons are more interesting than epic levels. In 3e, the transition from level 20 to 21 didn't really feel that interesting. The jump in power seemed more continuous than discrete. If I were playing an epic character in 5e, I'd prefer the feeling of earning a truly mythic ability that's categorically different from scaled versions of my pre-existing abilities.
to be fair honestly planar adventures would most likely come out alongside epic rules. Traversing planes is usually done at very high levels 15+ to epic normally.
This isn't obvious. BG:DiA detailed one of the most actively hostile regions in the planes, and it wasn't epic level.
Flipside ... how many people are necessarily going to use Guildmasters of Ravnica ...? Or, how many will use Mythic Odysseys of Theros ...?
Not even Psionics will have a universal appeal, really.
I mean sure, but that's kinda a straw man argument. Again, supposing we get one crunchy book per year, and the rest are shameless MTG-plug, niche campaign settings, cash-grabs not, I'd rather they use the resources not otherwise earmarked by Hasbro for broader stuff. Thankfully, the flood of recent UA character options seems to suggest something big on the way. As we've seen, it'd be hard to justify taking up more than an appendix of some book for epic rules based on the way the vast majority of folks play their games.
I'd hope that the book with the new character options would have a section focused on epic levels. It doesn't have to be the focus of the book, I would just like it to happen.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
This was part of my reasoning when making a level 21-30 paladin class/subclass rules.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Use the Epic Boons in the DMG and Ability Score Increases above 20 up until level 25. Then use some homebrew stuff since the PCs are basically demigods by then. Also druids get immortality at level 20 and the Epic Boon of immortality in the DMG is also a thing. So immortality is somewhat underpowered.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
Eh *shrug*. I wouldn't complain or be upset if WotC were to put out an epic levels book, but it's certainly not something I'm clamoring for. I really thought it was cool stuff back when I was a teenager, but the kinds of stories that require epic levels just aren't as interesting to me as an adult.
So, the current consensus here is that most people seem to want epic levels, and about an equal amount of people are unsure and don't want them.
There's also been some talk about how they should be implemented.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
one thing I don't want is spell levels beyond 9th. Getting slots above 9th is ok but to keep it from getting too insane keep the spell level system intact. However what would be cool is a spell development/research system as a feature of full spell casting classes that make it to epic levels.
I don't think we'll see many additional rules for epic levels coming. Those high levels are rarely played, and I'm glad on each new edition they focus more on making low levels interesting as they get more play time.
If you happen to reach level 20 and the group wants to keep playing, there are some rules you can apply here and there, but you'll need to homebrew a lot. I personally prefer to close the characters arch stories on a satisfying way and make them part of the world.
This is my reaction as well, although for levels 15+ you probably need to just homebrew your own campaign. I understand most adventures wind down before you get to level 15 so what's the point except to theorize what your level 30 character build would be.
I think in AD&D most character classes ended about level 16 to 18 and above that you just got 1 HP / level or something like that. Groups can just homebrew the rest.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
I think spells above 9th should become difficult and time consuming rituals with very specific components.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I voted yes. Sure...why not? I do agree with those people who point out that 5E is meant to be simple so, implementing level advancement rules should be too. This idea may be too boring to some but, here it is:
From 21 and up to 30, just give the advancement that was given between level 1 and 10 again. if it was Extra Attack, you do that. Add another Fighting Style, etc. Add a secondary effect to a Feature like Second Wind, it does more healing or it negates a condition, whatever. At 30, everyone gets uncapped stats and all ASI progression pays out double stats or feats AND, HP gains are doubled(so, level 30-40 would follow level 10-20 advancement gains but, boosted).
I'm a minimalist. Why recreate the wheel when you can just ride someone else's bike?
I say let epic levels happen, but keep classes caped at 20. The next 10 levels can be for multiclass levels in the spirit of Prestige Classes.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Whether any one person would ever be inclined to use them or not, YES they should exist.
At least some people will want to use them.
...
Back in 3.5, there was the book Libris Mortis, which included possibly-player-appropriate content (e.g., the Corpsecrafter feats). Not every GM would have allowed them; not every player would have even wanted them.
I, for one, loved them. :)
That was one of my favorite 3.5 books
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
D&D needs better support for epic level play before they do epic levels, methinks. It's one of the increasingly innumerable things that bugs me about this game. A lot of the hook for getting people in is all the awesome badass shit you can do at higher levels, the super crazy Greater Arcana spells, the high-level class features that sound amazing...and then everybody hits sixth level and goes "WHELP, that was a good campaign. Time to retire these heroes and start over again at level 1, literally the absolute worst part of D&D, because high-level play is for losers!" There's zero real official material for play above 12th level, and the game devs themselves have admitted that they don't like high level D&D.
That sounds like a thing that needs to be fixed, because if you're going to sell people on all the amazing shit that happens in the late game and then stack the deck such that less than a percent of players ever get to the late game? You dun goofed.
Please do not contact or message me.
Yeah, i don't get that "we finished this Module we're lvl 11 but lets start over by doing another module with other characters".
I'm Dming CoS for the group, once its over and they are out of Barovia i plan to either Run Deepwater or ToA with the same characters and just change the encounters CR (found an online tool that lets you change the CR of creatures and will change the stats appropriatly, its still in Developpement so there's some weird results like a CR 1 creature that gets bumped to Cr 7 and suddenly his former 1d4+4 melee attack becomes a 20d4+4 melee attack..., but thats easy to solve)
Honestly thats the kinda tool WotC and DnDB should make, a CR slider, so no matter what Module you use, you can always easely adapt it.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
I think the tacit question is not whether the rules should exist, but whether the devs should expend the time and effort on developing a new epic level system when most people aren't going to use it. If there are 2-3 books per year, and maybe one crunchy book, I see epic level stuff as very low priority next to things like wrapping up psionics, giving fair treatment to planar games, etc.
to be fair honestly planar adventures would most likely come out alongside epic rules. Traversing planes is usually done at very high levels 15+ to epic normally.
That's not really the purpose of the question, but if it plays into your answer of it, it's a valid concern.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Flipside ... how many people are necessarily going to use Guildmasters of Ravnica ...? Or, how many will use Mythic Odysseys of Theros ...?
Not even Psionics will have a universal appeal, really.
I mean sure, but that's kinda a straw man argument. Again, supposing we get one crunchy book per year, and the rest are
shameless MTG-plug, niche campaign settings, cash-grabsnot, I'd rather they use the resources not otherwise earmarked by Hasbro for broader stuff. Thankfully, the flood of recent UA character options seems to suggest something big on the way. As we've seen, it'd be hard to justify taking up more than an appendix of some book for epic rules based on the way the vast majority of folks play their games.I mean, a poll isn't really that interesting if what it's saying is "should we have niche feature X?" ignoring the opportunity cost of X. Should we have a 100-page book on flumphs? I'd say obviously yes so long as it doesn't divert resources away from other stuff.
But even if it were costless, I still think epic boons are more interesting than epic levels. In 3e, the transition from level 20 to 21 didn't really feel that interesting. The jump in power seemed more continuous than discrete. If I were playing an epic character in 5e, I'd prefer the feeling of earning a truly mythic ability that's categorically different from scaled versions of my pre-existing abilities.
This isn't obvious. BG:DiA detailed one of the most actively hostile regions in the planes, and it wasn't epic level.
I'd hope that the book with the new character options would have a section focused on epic levels. It doesn't have to be the focus of the book, I would just like it to happen.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System