A number of my colleagues in work are playing D&D, also one friend, which has sparked my interest.
Now it is many years since I played and in addition to D&D I also played Traveller back in the day (Sci-Fi), Bushido (RPG in feudal Japan) and perhaps best of all the ironically titled 'Heroes' which was set in early medieval Europe with though the geography had been subtly modified and sort of re-named. I also had a copy of MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) though I never got further than creating a few sample characters and working through a couple of skirmishes. In short I'm no Noob though it has been some time.
There are various elements of D&D that I have issues with, which I will resist going into here.
It has taken a few theoretical play throughs of simple combats (no magic, no healing) to get the hang of how they work. Which I have not found intuitive. I have also had to back and forth a bit in the rules to for example work out how the different armour classes listed are described and relate them to real history equivalents from the sort of mail worn by Roman Legionaries of the Late Republic (2nd Century BC) to the Plate armour worn in the 15th Century. That's a range of nearly two millennia, during which armour and weaponry both evolved in response to each other.
So, if I wish to create a 'world' reminiscent of Beowulf, or Middle Earth, or early medieval Europe's North Western fringe (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia), the AC of an unarmoured character is 10 and that of those wearing anything from akheton/gambeson to scale or mail is in the range of 11 to 14. A shield can add a further two points to armour class. So I find myself wondering if that is a fair assessment of the value of armour ?
But what would happen if I say drop the AC for those not wearing armour to 8 ? One could reduce all the AC values and use a different die, say D12, but how radically would that re-shape outcomes and it would give greater emphasis to bonuses ?
How useful is a shield, is it really worth only 2 ? Depends who is using it and how. MERP gave shields a value of 20, which given that used 'percentage' dice would be equivalent to 4. How about if a shield is worth 2 if you are say just advancing and holding it up, but worth 4 if used actively to block an opponent's strikes, if it could be used to defend against strikes from up to two opponents, distributing the 4 as 2 and 2 or 1 and 3, provided the two were quite close together, say within a 120 degree arc to front and front right.
One thing I liked about the MERP rules was that they had critical tables that allowed for a critical to mean anything from no additional damage to an instant kill, with interesting possibilities along the way like cracked ribs, a bleeding wound (-1 per move until it receives appropriate attention), loss of an eye. And I wonder about making criticals more interesting ?
Also wondered if the scale of an injury should matter. Lots of one or two point hits might just stack up, but what if half or more of a character's hit points go in one hit, should they be reduced to defending themselves, should they be effectively out of action, should there be a chance of permanent consequences ?
I tend to think in terms of a 'world' which is fairly closely based on a historical period (No you can't have that type of armour, it has not been invented !), a limited palette of 'creatures' and some real risk to the players' characters.
Anyone have constructive advice having perhaps tried some of these things out ?
In fact it is so large that I made a "small shield" in my campaign that was only +1 (but also costs half as much and has half the weight), so I could give enemy NPCs a small +1 AC boost but not the full +2 AC of a full shield.
I have not played MERP but in its big-brother game, Rolemaster, the to-hit bonus could be split between attack and defense and could get much larger than the max you can get from to hit in D&D.
Also Crits are not anything like RM in D&D, and the damage is abstracted much more than RM or MERP damage is, which is much more tied to having "real wounds" rather than just "being beaten to the point of needing to rest" (which is all D&D damage represents).
As mentioned, +2AC is a huge bonus. If you want to be even harder to hit ("used actively to block an opponent's strikes") you can always use the dodge action.
I'm suprised no one has mentioned that the DMG has a whole slew of variant combat rules near the back. If you are okay with combat taking a little longer, you can have an ever-changing initiative or have damage be more "real" by having rests take longer. My favorite rule in there is lingering wounds -- in certain situations players can have deeper wounds, from broken ribs to a missing arm. I like how IamSposta pointed out to not mess with it on your first game with the system.
May I suggest The One Ring roleplaying game? It's got that more textured, low-magic, Middle-Earth feel with some (relatively) streamlined mechanics. Other options I can think of are Genesys (for a fun crit system) or older D&D systems like 1e or 2e (for that awesome lethality).
There's also a LotR themed official 5e conversion, I believe it's called Adventures in Middle-Earth. Seems to do a very solid job of handling Tolkien's low-magic setting, although I haven't played it and given that it's 5e I doubt it's especially lethal.
My initial thoughts were to download the old MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) rules and do some 're-working'.
MERP used percentage dice for everything and there were lots of tables for maneuvres and combat and critical and spells; 32 pages of tables . . .
Generally I suspect a laborious way of arriving at similar results to D&D.
Adapting the criticals to a D20 system may work . . .
MERP handled representing a world with very few wizards and some non-wizards with some magical powers badly. Making it possible for many character classes to have some, generally low level, spells.
Well, after further consideration I think for the sort of environment I envisage:
If armour is either the sort of mail that might be worn by a 'Viking age' huscarl then I read that as AC 14 and the armour that might be worn by a fyrd or bondi (padded textile or leather scale might be 12), then +2 seems appropriate for a shield.
If wizards, sorcerers, witches, warlocks or sorcerers, pure magic user class are very rare then multiclassing is the answer.
Re-visiting the MERP critical tables they provide a relatively complicated process. Critical rolls are common, the majority of hits bring some chance of a critical. The following open ended percentage dice roll is subject to between a -20 to a +20 depending on the result on the initial table used for the attack. The result is an instant kill for perhaps one critical in 10 or 12 and no damage or only the equivalent of a single additional damage point (D&D) about as often. Between a variety of stun effects, limits to activity, bleeding cuts, etc. There are two disparities between the two systems; the frequency of critical hits and the range of effects. Changing both in a customisation of D&D5e seems inadvisable. Sticking with critical on a roll of 20 but altering the range of potential effect might add that increased element of hazard ?
On the roll of a D 'something' (D12 ?), some chance of no damage or of only 1 additional point, some chance of the extra hit die score result, some chance of an instant kill ?
Well, after further consideration I think for the sort of environment I envisage:
If armour is either the sort of mail that might be worn by a 'Viking age' huscarl then I read that as AC 14 and the armour that might be worn by a fyrd or bondi (padded textile or leather scale might be 12), then +2 seems appropriate for a shield.
If wizards, sorcerers, witches, warlocks or sorcerers, pure magic user class are very rare then multiclassing is the answer.
Re-visiting the MERP critical tables they provide a relatively complicated process. Critical rolls are common, the majority of hits bring some chance of a critical. The following open ended percentage dice roll is subject to between a -20 to a +20 depending on the result on the initial table used for the attack. The result is an instant kill for perhaps one critical in 10 or 12 and no damage or only the equivalent of a single additional damage point (D&D) about as often. Between a variety of stun effects, limits to activity, bleeding cuts, etc. There are two disparities between the two systems; the frequency of critical hits and the range of effects. Changing both in a customisation of D&D5e seems inadvisable. Sticking with critical on a roll of 20 but altering the range of potential effect might add that increased element of hazard ?
On the roll of a D 'something' (D12 ?), some chance of no damage or of only 1 additional point, some chance of the extra hit die score result, some chance of an instant kill ?
sounds good, but very complicated. In my groups we get the same effect with much less prep by having the DM decide if its just extra damage, extra status effect, or instant kill. Similar proccess for nat 1s.
I like what you have, are you treating your new armor as some form of medium armor??
A number of my colleagues in work are playing D&D, also one friend, which has sparked my interest.
Now it is many years since I played and in addition to D&D I also played Traveller back in the day (Sci-Fi), Bushido (RPG in feudal Japan) and perhaps best of all the ironically titled 'Heroes' which was set in early medieval Europe with though the geography had been subtly modified and sort of re-named. I also had a copy of MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) though I never got further than creating a few sample characters and working through a couple of skirmishes. In short I'm no Noob though it has been some time.
There are various elements of D&D that I have issues with, which I will resist going into here.
It has taken a few theoretical play throughs of simple combats (no magic, no healing) to get the hang of how they work. Which I have not found intuitive. I have also had to back and forth a bit in the rules to for example work out how the different armour classes listed are described and relate them to real history equivalents from the sort of mail worn by Roman Legionaries of the Late Republic (2nd Century BC) to the Plate armour worn in the 15th Century. That's a range of nearly two millennia, during which armour and weaponry both evolved in response to each other.
So, if I wish to create a 'world' reminiscent of Beowulf, or Middle Earth, or early medieval Europe's North Western fringe (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia), the AC of an unarmoured character is 10 and that of those wearing anything from akheton/gambeson to scale or mail is in the range of 11 to 14. A shield can add a further two points to armour class. So I find myself wondering if that is a fair assessment of the value of armour ?
But what would happen if I say drop the AC for those not wearing armour to 8 ? One could reduce all the AC values and use a different die, say D12, but how radically would that re-shape outcomes and it would give greater emphasis to bonuses ?
How useful is a shield, is it really worth only 2 ? Depends who is using it and how. MERP gave shields a value of 20, which given that used 'percentage' dice would be equivalent to 4. How about if a shield is worth 2 if you are say just advancing and holding it up, but worth 4 if used actively to block an opponent's strikes, if it could be used to defend against strikes from up to two opponents, distributing the 4 as 2 and 2 or 1 and 3, provided the two were quite close together, say within a 120 degree arc to front and front right.
One thing I liked about the MERP rules was that they had critical tables that allowed for a critical to mean anything from no additional damage to an instant kill, with interesting possibilities along the way like cracked ribs, a bleeding wound (-1 per move until it receives appropriate attention), loss of an eye. And I wonder about making criticals more interesting ?
Also wondered if the scale of an injury should matter. Lots of one or two point hits might just stack up, but what if half or more of a character's hit points go in one hit, should they be reduced to defending themselves, should they be effectively out of action, should there be a chance of permanent consequences ?
I tend to think in terms of a 'world' which is fairly closely based on a historical period (No you can't have that type of armour, it has not been invented !), a limited palette of 'creatures' and some real risk to the players' characters.
Anyone have constructive advice having perhaps tried some of these things out ?
Not sure if I'm being constructive but I'll try. That is my intention at least.
You're playing the wrong game. Either
Stick with 5e combat as it's written (for now) and see if it's enough fun for you or
Find a system that appeals to your crunch, nuance, obsessiveness over real world application (all good things mind you). D&D has never been that system, let alone 5E.
In the strength and conditioning world (which I'm very familiar with) we talk about the following:
Don't start training for a marathon by focusing on bodybuilding, even if you desire to have a great looking body. In the end, you might look good but you'll be pissed at your result when it comes time to run the actual marathon.
Find a journey that fits the goal. Don't twist and change the journey until it fits when something out there already exists. Find a real-world combat/sword/armor simulation style system. Or let it all go and go full 4e D&D arcade mode!
Well tbh Jack I'd like to get my hands on a copy of 'Heroes'. It's been 35+ years so I can't remember them in detail. The second ed. was sold out and I've asked about re-print or if they'll make that available as a pdf. The original version is available as a pdf, but I'd rather get the updated version.
@OrtanFang
The D&D armour class system seeks to cover everything from, well the sort of mail worn be legionnaires of the later Roman Republic or Huscarls to the brigandine and full plate armour of the late medieval period and 'fantasy armour' that is more Hollywood or fantasy trope. The armour I describe is on the D&D list and is the two or three classes that correspond to what was actually in use in the 9th - 12th centuries in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.
You might find the World of Darkness system more to your liking. I don’t know what the current edition is like, my group never upgraded from 3rd. We just kept playing that edition. But if it’s at least as similar as 5e is to older editions, it might still suit you. They might not have a medieval version anymore, but they used to. It’s a bit grimdark, but the system is less “THIS IS THE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!” and more of a “This is roughly how stuff works. Here are some suggestions of stuff you might do for you to get a rough idea for game balance. The rest of it works exactly how you think it should based on that.”
A number of my colleagues in work are playing D&D, also one friend, which has sparked my interest.
Now it is many years since I played and in addition to D&D I also played Traveller back in the day (Sci-Fi), Bushido (RPG in feudal Japan) and perhaps best of all the ironically titled 'Heroes' which was set in early medieval Europe with though the geography had been subtly modified and sort of re-named. I also had a copy of MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) though I never got further than creating a few sample characters and working through a couple of skirmishes. In short I'm no Noob though it has been some time.
There are various elements of D&D that I have issues with, which I will resist going into here.
It has taken a few theoretical play throughs of simple combats (no magic, no healing) to get the hang of how they work. Which I have not found intuitive. I have also had to back and forth a bit in the rules to for example work out how the different armour classes listed are described and relate them to real history equivalents from the sort of mail worn by Roman Legionaries of the Late Republic (2nd Century BC) to the Plate armour worn in the 15th Century. That's a range of nearly two millennia, during which armour and weaponry both evolved in response to each other.
So, if I wish to create a 'world' reminiscent of Beowulf, or Middle Earth, or early medieval Europe's North Western fringe (Scotland, Ireland, Scandinavia), the AC of an unarmoured character is 10 and that of those wearing anything from akheton/gambeson to scale or mail is in the range of 11 to 14. A shield can add a further two points to armour class. So I find myself wondering if that is a fair assessment of the value of armour ?
But what would happen if I say drop the AC for those not wearing armour to 8 ? One could reduce all the AC values and use a different die, say D12, but how radically would that re-shape outcomes and it would give greater emphasis to bonuses ?
How useful is a shield, is it really worth only 2 ? Depends who is using it and how. MERP gave shields a value of 20, which given that used 'percentage' dice would be equivalent to 4. How about if a shield is worth 2 if you are say just advancing and holding it up, but worth 4 if used actively to block an opponent's strikes, if it could be used to defend against strikes from up to two opponents, distributing the 4 as 2 and 2 or 1 and 3, provided the two were quite close together, say within a 120 degree arc to front and front right.
One thing I liked about the MERP rules was that they had critical tables that allowed for a critical to mean anything from no additional damage to an instant kill, with interesting possibilities along the way like cracked ribs, a bleeding wound (-1 per move until it receives appropriate attention), loss of an eye. And I wonder about making criticals more interesting ?
Also wondered if the scale of an injury should matter. Lots of one or two point hits might just stack up, but what if half or more of a character's hit points go in one hit, should they be reduced to defending themselves, should they be effectively out of action, should there be a chance of permanent consequences ?
I tend to think in terms of a 'world' which is fairly closely based on a historical period (No you can't have that type of armour, it has not been invented !), a limited palette of 'creatures' and some real risk to the players' characters.
Anyone have constructive advice having perhaps tried some of these things out ?
My advice, play the game normally first and get the hang of it Before implementing a whole slew of changes that affect game balance that drastically.
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+2 AC is *huge* in D&D.
In fact it is so large that I made a "small shield" in my campaign that was only +1 (but also costs half as much and has half the weight), so I could give enemy NPCs a small +1 AC boost but not the full +2 AC of a full shield.
I have not played MERP but in its big-brother game, Rolemaster, the to-hit bonus could be split between attack and defense and could get much larger than the max you can get from to hit in D&D.
Also Crits are not anything like RM in D&D, and the damage is abstracted much more than RM or MERP damage is, which is much more tied to having "real wounds" rather than just "being beaten to the point of needing to rest" (which is all D&D damage represents).
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
You might find some of the stuff in these videos informative:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjD0Gjtgik
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xZdS8lP-Sdo&list=PLlUk42GiU2guNzWBzxn7hs8MaV7ELLCP_&index=73&t=0s
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
As mentioned, +2AC is a huge bonus. If you want to be even harder to hit ("used actively to block an opponent's strikes") you can always use the dodge action.
Well I did consider that actively using the shield to block would be an action.
You can't take actions outside of your turn, so that would have to be a reaction of which you only get one.
It sounds like what you're looking for might be a system other than D&D, one that takes a more 'realistic', simulationist approach.
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
I'm suprised no one has mentioned that the DMG has a whole slew of variant combat rules near the back. If you are okay with combat taking a little longer, you can have an ever-changing initiative or have damage be more "real" by having rests take longer. My favorite rule in there is lingering wounds -- in certain situations players can have deeper wounds, from broken ribs to a missing arm. I like how IamSposta pointed out to not mess with it on your first game with the system.
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
Yes I think a different system Davedamon.
May I suggest The One Ring roleplaying game? It's got that more textured, low-magic, Middle-Earth feel with some (relatively) streamlined mechanics. Other options I can think of are Genesys (for a fun crit system) or older D&D systems like 1e or 2e (for that awesome lethality).
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
My previous experience of D&D was I think 1e or 2e.
Perhaps I will try and get a copy of 'Heroes' and see if I can sprinkle a little magic and throw in the Middle Earth species.
There's also a LotR themed official 5e conversion, I believe it's called Adventures in Middle-Earth. Seems to do a very solid job of handling Tolkien's low-magic setting, although I haven't played it and given that it's 5e I doubt it's especially lethal.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
My initial thoughts were to download the old MERP (Middle Earth Role Playing) rules and do some 're-working'.
MERP used percentage dice for everything and there were lots of tables for maneuvres and combat and critical and spells; 32 pages of tables . . .
Generally I suspect a laborious way of arriving at similar results to D&D.
Adapting the criticals to a D20 system may work . . .
MERP handled representing a world with very few wizards and some non-wizards with some magical powers badly. Making it possible for many character classes to have some, generally low level, spells.
Well, after further consideration I think for the sort of environment I envisage:
Re-visiting the MERP critical tables they provide a relatively complicated process. Critical rolls are common, the majority of hits bring some chance of a critical. The following open ended percentage dice roll is subject to between a -20 to a +20 depending on the result on the initial table used for the attack. The result is an instant kill for perhaps one critical in 10 or 12 and no damage or only the equivalent of a single additional damage point (D&D) about as often. Between a variety of stun effects, limits to activity, bleeding cuts, etc. There are two disparities between the two systems; the frequency of critical hits and the range of effects. Changing both in a customisation of D&D5e seems inadvisable. Sticking with critical on a roll of 20 but altering the range of potential effect might add that increased element of hazard ?
On the roll of a D 'something' (D12 ?), some chance of no damage or of only 1 additional point, some chance of the extra hit die score result, some chance of an instant kill ?
sounds good, but very complicated. In my groups we get the same effect with much less prep by having the DM decide if its just extra damage, extra status effect, or instant kill. Similar proccess for nat 1s.
I like what you have, are you treating your new armor as some form of medium armor??
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
Not sure if I'm being constructive but I'll try. That is my intention at least.
You're playing the wrong game. Either
In the strength and conditioning world (which I'm very familiar with) we talk about the following:
Don't start training for a marathon by focusing on bodybuilding, even if you desire to have a great looking body. In the end, you might look good but you'll be pissed at your result when it comes time to run the actual marathon.
Find a journey that fits the goal. Don't twist and change the journey until it fits when something out there already exists. Find a real-world combat/sword/armor simulation style system. Or let it all go and go full 4e D&D arcade mode!
All things Lich - DM tips, tricks, and other creative shenanigans
@Jacked_Goblin
Well tbh Jack I'd like to get my hands on a copy of 'Heroes'. It's been 35+ years so I can't remember them in detail. The second ed. was sold out and I've asked about re-print or if they'll make that available as a pdf. The original version is available as a pdf, but I'd rather get the updated version.
@OrtanFang
The D&D armour class system seeks to cover everything from, well the sort of mail worn be legionnaires of the later Roman Republic or Huscarls to the brigandine and full plate armour of the late medieval period and 'fantasy armour' that is more Hollywood or fantasy trope. The armour I describe is on the D&D list and is the two or three classes that correspond to what was actually in use in the 9th - 12th centuries in Europe, the Middle East and North Africa.
I like your advice about criticals.
You might find the World of Darkness system more to your liking. I don’t know what the current edition is like, my group never upgraded from 3rd. We just kept playing that edition. But if it’s at least as similar as 5e is to older editions, it might still suit you. They might not have a medieval version anymore, but they used to. It’s a bit grimdark, but the system is less “THIS IS THE WAY TO DO THINGS!!!” and more of a “This is roughly how stuff works. Here are some suggestions of stuff you might do for you to get a rough idea for game balance. The rest of it works exactly how you think it should based on that.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting