And note that any fool with herbalism kit experience and survival skill can make potions. Rogues have a ton more skills than any of the caster classes. You are seriously playing down the options available to non-casters here.
That's because everyone has those abilities. Between "I have useful skills" and "I have useful skills and useful spells", which is higher utility?
They could, of course, give higher level martial characters a bunch more skills, and maybe give them all expertise, and then there'd be at least a legitimate argument, but they didn't.
How good out of combat options are is completely DM dependent.
Can a fighter Fly? Can a rogue turn Invisible? Spellcaster 'I have a spell to solve every situation' is a lot reduced compared to 3.5e, what with fewer spell slots and concentration options, but that doesn't mean spellcasters don't have a huge array of choices that simply aren't present for martials. Sure, martial characters have skills, but so do spellcasters.
Again, 10 minute duration does not fly you far. And there are potions. And at higher level, boots.
Rogue does not need to turn invisible when they can hide well enough and can move quieter. If the caster is heard their area can still be targeted. And invis in 5 e needs concentration. Plus there are invis potions too. And at higher level, rings.
A spell to solve every situation, Gracie? All prepared at once? Even a wizard can not necessarily manage that. Try claiming that as a sorc or 'lock. And most of those 'solutions' are relatively flashy and not necessarily the best options for stealth situations.
And note that any fool with herbalism kit experience and survival skill can make potions. Rogues have a ton more skills than any of the caster classes. You are seriously playing down the options available to non-casters here.
Edit: Don't get me wrong. Casters do have utility. But that does not mean that non-casters have nothing to bring to the table.
I think we are all hung up on different things here.
A wizard has Cantrips that they can use over and over that are stand ins for a Fighter's weapon attacks. The Wizard also has HUGE selection of spells the do very wide range of things both in and out of combat. Yes those spells are limited by things such as Concentration and Spell Durations, but they are still useful in a myriad of situations. And that is without applying anything from Subclasses.
The base Fighter has nothing like that at all. They only have basic Weapon Attacks. I want (I won't speak for others) a few limited use abilities for my Fighters as well. Battle Master is great. I love it, but it would be better if the base Fighter class had the Battle Master's abilities to show that they are truly masters of the battle field and can influence the flow of combat. Then add in the subclasses to expand on the archetype the player is looking for.
Right, so you are going to wizard and ignoring the other casters. Again, taking aspect of a specialist with respect to your argument.
The fighter is likely doing more damage than the cantrips. And almost certainly has better AC and HPs, so they can take hits safer too. The fighter also gets extra attacks.
Ok then. Tell me a caster that has fewer options in or out of combat than the Fighter.
You keep referring to a ‘basic fighter’ but there is no such thing. The various sub-classes ad a tonne of extra options, and they are hugely variable ranging from the spells that Eldritch Knights get to the incredibly powerful options that an Echo Knight has. When all you do is compare the standard fighter abilities without a subclass to a fully fledged wizard then of course the fighter will come out with less total versatility. The real issue here is not that a well made fighter has less options, it’s that you don’t understand the options they have or how to use them to get the best out of them. Your lack of imagination and knowledge is not a fault with the game’s design.
I'm an active poster on the ENworld forums...[snip, because we're really focusing on this thread about a potential ENWorld contribution of more mechanical options to 5e, not the fairly mainstream politics of the enterprise or fairly vanilla community standards enforcement].
Thanks, Third, that tracks with what I scanned.
As for the topic at hand I don't know what the big argument is. ENWorld is producing maybe a higher brand recognition roll out, but in the end it's just options no different from the annual dozen or more 3rd party option books published on the regular for 5e. Do players like considering options for their tables, maybe not universally but there's clearly a market for it.
I don't see ENWorld's project "saving" or "breaking" 5e. It's a parallel product that some will either swear by or shrug off, sorta like Strongholds and Followers and Followup and What I Really Meant to Say Kingdoms and Warfare.
You keep referring to a ‘basic fighter’ but there is no such thing. The various sub-classes ad a tonne of extra options, and they are hugely variable ranging from the spells that Eldritch Knights get to the incredibly powerful options that an Echo Knight has. When all you do is compare the standard fighter abilities without a subclass to a fully fledged wizard then of course the fighter will come out with less total versatility. The real issue here is not that a well made fighter has less options, it’s that you don’t understand the options they have or how to use them to get the best out of them. Your lack of imagination and knowledge is not a fault with the game’s design.
All classes get subclass that add a ton of extra options. All subclasses for classes are hugely variable. They all get them on top of their base class abilities. The only class that really doesn't care greatly about subclass is the Wizard. Take any Fighter, complete with subclass and compare it to the options avaible each round to a Cleric, Wizard or Druid and it will come up lacking.
Lets do some math here.
A 5th level Fighter(Rune Knight) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, Second Wind, Enlarge yourself or activate the Stone or Frost Rune. Oh, and you can attack with a weapon 2 more times. 5 options two of which are attack with weapon.
A 5th level Warlock(Hexblade) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, cast one of 3 Cantrips, one of 6 spells, or one of 3 invocations. 13 options there.
A 5th level Cleric (War) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, attack with a weapon again, cast one of 4 cantrips or one of 9 spells, or Channel Divinity. That is a total of 15 options.
Lets go with Rogue now. A 5th level Rogue(Thief) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, bonus action Dash, Disengage or Hide, Bonus action use and Object or Sleight of Hand. So pretty close to the fighter at 6 options.
I don't plan to do all the classes, but as you can see, from two examples that Martial seem to have fewer options than casters do.
That was pretty much the point behind me starting the thread, way back when it was actually current. "Hey, look - there's these books designed specifically for the sort of people Kotath/Beardsinger/the rest claim don't exist, i.e. people who would like more meat on the bones of 5e, and they're being made by a company with some clout behind them and not just some indie yaybo on Kickstarter hoping to make it biggish with a one-and-done book. if they're really successful, I wonder what that says about the market for more advanced rules overlays for 5e?"
I have subsequently been informed to shut up, abandond D&D forever, and ideally extinguish myself in a motel room somewhere, so...yeah. That was cool. But also sorta expected for this place, I suppose.
Fighter is definitely a bit of a 'skeleton' base class that is highly dependent on the subclasses to flesh them out. And wizards are relatively less reliant on subclasses. I think because of this sort of thing it's important to compare the whole picture and not just base classes.
Either way, listing out the 'number' of options here, feels a lit off. For warlock for example, how many of those cantrips and spells are going to be useful in that moment? How many of those invocations are just passive benefits and not new choices to make in combat? Are we at the start of a new adventuring day or has the caster gone through most of their spell slots now?
Fighter is definitely a bit of a 'skeleton' base class that is highly dependent on the subclasses to flesh them out. And wizards are relatively less reliant on subclasses. I think because of this sort of thing it's important to compare the whole picture and not just base classes.
Either way, listing out the 'number' of options here, feels a lit off. For warlock for example, how many of those cantrips and spells are going to be useful in that moment? How many of those invocations are just passive benefits and not new choices to make in combat? Are we at the start of a new adventuring day or has the caster gone through most of their spell slots now?
Same could be said for any class or subclass feature. Not all features are useful in a given situations and uses of features get spent for Fighters as well. So just as spell slot are spent, so are uses of Second Wind, Action Surge and Enlarge.
My own concern is that eventually, Wizards is going to find out that 5e cannot retain players. The game needs - and I heavily emphasize that word. Here, let me emphasize it more: needs needs needs needs needs needs NEEDS - a greater degree of depth for those players who're slowly starving to death on the core 5e rules.
I can say that the only reason I'm still running 5e instead of switching to a system that does not assume everyone using it is as dumb as a sack of sand and cannot handle ANY cognitive load whatsoever is because of the DDB tool. I would've jumped ship and taken my money with me long since if not for what the DDB team built here. Even then, my playgroup is constantly looking for ways to introduce choice, depth, and diversity back into the 5e ruleset somehow, and unfortunately we're butting up against the strict limitations of the DDB tool doing it.
The rest of the 5e fanbase (or at least the DDB forum userbase here) would have me believe that me and mine are the only people in existence who're starving to death on this system's lack of depth. I'm mostly pointing to this ENWorld initiative as an argument against that mindset, and a sign that maybe - just MAYBE - Wizards should get off its f#$%ing space ass and GIVE US AN OFFICIAL 5.5E SUPPLEMENT ALREADY!!!!!! They don't need to replace the core rulebooks, which everybody knows they'll never do because it'll upset their precious money cart and piss off the newbies who only just barely got conned into spending a hundred and fifty dollars on the three big books in the first place. Nobody's asking them to do that. We know better. But they do need to give the more experienced gamers, the people absolutely desperate for something to bite into when they play the game and design characters for it, a freaking bone.
Or we. Will. Leave.
I detest Pathfinder's approach to actually running games. Numbers so high you need a telescope to see them, an extremely narrow band of content the players can do effectively due to absurd scaling of the numbers, and a set of floating static modifiers long enough to make every fight a nightmare. Not required. But man - the new PF2e character creation system has been universally and effusively lauded, from what I've seen. The three-action system is ever so much cleaner and better than 5e's kludgy mess. I could see where people might want to apply some of that to 5e's leaner battle engine and the idea of bounded accuracy. If that's what ENWorld does? Maybe there'll be something to it, if they do it well.
And yeah. Additional character creation options would be excellent. Virtually all of my table's rules homebrew is groping for ways to make character creation more fun and meaningful at all levels of play. The whole "pick your species, pick your class, pick your background, wait until level 3 and pick your subclass, and now voila - you're done making significant decisions for your character for the rest of that character's life" thing can suck every last duck in existence. Including Quackthulhu.
As someone who has been roleplaying for 20+ years has run systems as diverse as Whitewolf's Apocalypse series (for me the absolute definition of a system that got far to bloated and confused and so literally needed the apocalypse to happen so it could be burnt to the ground), to Legend of the 5 rings (one of the most brutal systems in terms of combat for players, and do not get me started on a shadowlands campaign for shortening characters lives). Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, a system that forced "class" decisions based on the starts you rolled, and while being quite crunchy managed to get all the rules into just a single rulebook, to Cyberpunk, Gurps, Paranoia and I could go on and on I think you really do not understand the appeal of DnD 5e.
I dabbled in earlier DnD editions, I played a bit with pathfinder and it has it's benefits, but the joy of 5E as a system is that as a story teller it allows me so so much scope to tell mutual stories with my table knowing that I don't have to worry about a character decision leading to them having to commit Sepukku (happens a lot in L5R if you are roleplaying properly), I don't have to worry about a rules argument at the table as 4 different players pull out 4 different sourcebooks and point legitimatley to 4 rules conflicts across those books (a problem with Apocalypse)
If you want a different system than honestly go and play a different game, there are so many options out there. The things you dislike myself and millions of players and DM's love because I have the scope to define the rules as I go, players tell me what they want to do and I can make the call as to what they need to roll, how the world reacts, what happens when they try it. I don;t need to refer to hundreds of tables, I don't need to refer to lots of different rules, my players don't need to spend an hour on a combat because they are figuring out what of the many options that will take. The describe what they want to do and the game gives me the absolute freedom to let them try. I have my issues with the D20 system, it is far to binary pass fail for me, so I tweak things and I have a DC range from heavy failure to strong success and everything in between, but if I wanted to change the system to how I want it then I would play 7th Sea or a similar roll and keep game.
So no WOTC do NOT need to make DnD more complicated or rules heavy, maybe you need to find a different system or reconsider how you challenge your players and make them think through problems. I am playing with equally experienced players who have played many many systems and they love the fact they can focus on story telling and actually roleplaying while having a system that has just enough in combat it is not one dimensional.
There are some minor tweaks they can make to the base subclasses, there are some minor balance issues that I can see some have (I have not suffered those issues but that is probably the kind of game we play), but feel free to leave. I am a great great believer in the idea that people should play as many systems as they possibly can over a lifetime, different is good.
As for inputting choice depth and diversity, I am a little confused exactly what you are struggling with, as a DM my party have no issues with choice, or depth and diversity in what regard are you talking?
Quoting in full because I feel these posts both raise valid concerns. I'm not sure they're getting at a useful solution though. I don't think 5E needs more rules or more complex rules to satisfy groups who experience a lack of options. I think 5E needs better rules in some cases, and certainly better rules-adjacent advice and suggestions on how to make games interesting or how to reward creativity without just giving everything and anything a free pass. There is some (very sparse) advice in the rulebooks, but by and large suggestions and options to tailor a campaign to a group's preferences are next to non-existent. I find myself lamenting about the sorry state of the DMG rather often, but, well, that's because the DMG is such a poor guide. In a purely mechanical sense 5E creates the inverse of the problem 3E had: 3E had tons of different things characters could do, but nine times out of ten they were locked behind - if you didn't need a (potentially prestige) class ability - a feat requirement or a skill rank requirement; 5E has in comparison very few things characters can do in combat that are mentioned in the rules, but as a result players and DMs don't know how to (or even want to) allow anything not in one of the books. At the same time half the interesting combats described in an official D&D novel seem to be won by some crafty move, quick thinking or special tactic the rules are entirely silent about.
I've so far held off on backing this KS because annoyingly I live in Europe, where apparently the books are being printed, but not in the UK, where the books are going to be shipped from, so VAT is going to be painful. If it in any way turns out to be some kind of smörgåsbord of options rather than just upgrading the existing crunch it'll get my wholehearted endorsement though, just because hopefully that'll lead to opening up mindsets about how to deal with combat scenes in 5E.
This might be the issue with my opinion is I come in as someone who learnt to DM without much more information then DND gives now and I certainly did not have the vast array of online resources to help new DMs learn about things like a session 0 (was not a concept 20+ years ago), or online streams to give ideas for combat narration. I think it is almost impossible to provide a written resource that truly gets across to a new DM hiw to DM as it is such a personal thing.
Maybe the answer here isn’t another book but more errata or FAQ answers online. Maybe Wizard should provide those kind of basic helpers with examples of roleplay situations online in an article format because the fact is, certainly the way my group play, that the things that make me stop and think a beat are so out there that I can’t see WOTC or anyone covering it off.
I mean, how much damage does a cow do when thrown at a human sized figure, how do we handle the situation where the bars has decided to try and seduce the queen, in front of the king and when a players summons an air elemental to try and blow out a fire how should I work out the mechanics of that.
As far as the basic rules go the PHB does a good job of explaining them, the actual “rules” section of the game is really light weight compared to other systems, in the past I was used to systems that had a players book that was just character creation, then a rule book that was just the rules, all 2-300 pages of them, and then a Dungeon masters guide or some sort of monster manual.
The DMG is to me a lightweight book, I have it mainly for completeness and the magic items but I can see how someone brand new to the idea of creating a world might find it useful to think of things like pantheons, or consider the basic rules of story telling. But if you where going to put more rules info in there even if just clarity what do you take out?
The CR rating is an issue but I have yet to find a roleplay system that creates an accurate mathematical model to tell you how hard your encounter is going to be, someone may correct me but to my mind balancing encounters is a just something you get a feel for over time.
And maybe this is the problem (this might sound like an old man taking now) but good GMing is not and never has been something that can be taught in a book, it comes with practice and getting things wrong. It seems like a certain generation expect to be able to do a thing without needing to put in the effort and work to get good at it but the real fact remains it just takes time. I would say over 20+ years of being a GM I was probably only really “good” in my opinion the last 5-6 years, yes before that everyone had fun but I probably spent the first 8-10 years being far to rules lawyery, and then the next 5 years breaking a ton of bad habits. But also the way we play TTRPGs has changed.
I don’t see there is much in the way of published material that WOTC can produce. Matt Mercer did a series of helpers for DMing, most of it feels like sucking eggs to me, but I realize to someone brand new it might all be a revelation. To put all that in a book would take up a whole DMG on its own, and most of us would not buy it because it is all so basic.
So yes there are issues but I don’t think another published book will help them.
But I might be wrong and maybe there is a silver bullet that could suddenly make it easy for anyone to DM any situation from a page in a book without producing a 400 page tome that tabulates every situation and takes all DM flair and imagination away? (And I mean that seriously not as sarcastically as it comes across)
You keep referring to a ‘basic fighter’ but there is no such thing. The various sub-classes ad a tonne of extra options, and they are hugely variable ranging from the spells that Eldritch Knights get to the incredibly powerful options that an Echo Knight has. When all you do is compare the standard fighter abilities without a subclass to a fully fledged wizard then of course the fighter will come out with less total versatility. The real issue here is not that a well made fighter has less options, it’s that you don’t understand the options they have or how to use them to get the best out of them. Your lack of imagination and knowledge is not a fault with the game’s design.
All classes get subclass that add a ton of extra options. All subclasses for classes are hugely variable. They all get them on top of their base class abilities. The only class that really doesn't care greatly about subclass is the Wizard. Take any Fighter, complete with subclass and compare it to the options avaible each round to a Cleric, Wizard or Druid and it will come up lacking.
Lets do some math here.
A 5th level Fighter(Rune Knight) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, Second Wind, Enlarge yourself or activate the Stone or Frost Rune. Oh, and you can attack with a weapon 2 more times. 5 options two of which are attack with weapon.
A 5th level Warlock(Hexblade) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, cast one of 3 Cantrips, one of 6 spells, or one of 3 invocations. 13 options there.
A 5th level Cleric (War) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, attack with a weapon again, cast one of 4 cantrips or one of 9 spells, or Channel Divinity. That is a total of 15 options.
Lets go with Rogue now. A 5th level Rogue(Thief) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, bonus action Dash, Disengage or Hide, Bonus action use and Object or Sleight of Hand. So pretty close to the fighter at 6 options.
I don't plan to do all the classes, but as you can see, from two examples that Martial seem to have fewer options than casters do.
Warlock, you conveniently pick the most martial
Cleric, ditto.
Rogue, you leave out all the social skills and expertise. And picked the least likely to be useful subclass.
And as said by Nyr, you simply assume the spells (and even the cantrips) are all commonly useful.
How commonly useful is Action Surge or Enlarging ones self?
Not all skill proficiencies, tool proficiencies (hah), or janky ribbon subclass features specifically intended to be nichey, narrow, and useful very rarely are going to be useful all the time either. A rogue is just as capable of picking the 'wrong' skills as a caster is of picking the 'wrong' spells, and unlike the caster the rogue will never get another chance to pick new skills or switch her skills out unless the DM steps beyond the game to allow it.
Conveniently picked the ones that have pretty limited utility? How does that prove any point? I mean, we can instead compare to a Celestial warlock and a Knowledge cleric, but doing so won't make the fighter look better.
Not all skill proficiencies, tool proficiencies (hah), or janky ribbon subclass features specifically intended to be nichey, narrow, and useful very rarely are going to be useful all the time either. A rogue is just as capable of picking the 'wrong' skills as a caster is of picking the 'wrong' spells, and unlike the caster the rogue will never get another chance to pick new skills or switch her skills out unless the DM steps beyond the game to allow it.
This isn’t “stepping beyond the game” it is applying common sense, I think this is the fundamental thing people forget about DND, they rules are a guide, DND was never intended to be played RAW, Gary Gygax’s defining principle was always take these as inspiration and make your own game out of them.
The more “crunch” DND adds the less it becomes the game it’s creator envisaged. It is why I find rules lawyering in DND so pointless, rules lawyering breaks the very first rule of the game.
If you don’t like that then play a different game, there are loads out there that add more rules, there are games that litterely have tables for every little thing and take more and more away from the GM’s decision makings, and no I am not being snarky here I mean it DND may not be the game for you, that is ok there are loads of RPGs out there and one of them will tick the boxes of what you want.
I have subsequently been informed to shut up, abandond D&D forever, and ideally extinguish myself in a motel room somewhere, so...yeah. That was cool. But also sorta expected for this place, I suppose.
Once again, no one said any of that. I don't know where you expect to get with this strategy. Anyone who is genuinely interested can look back through the comments and see that no one is saying anything as extreme as how you frame it in your comments.
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I mean, I could point to at least three separate posters in the last two pages who have said "So stop playing D&D and do something else", usually with all sort of highfalutin', nose-in-the-air accompaniment about how the true purity of D&D is more important than anybody's satisfaction with it. I'm not sure how that can be construed as anything but "abandon game and leave me alone"
I mean, I could point to at least three separate posters in the last two pages who have said "So stop playing D&D and do something else", usually with all sort of highfalutin', nose-in-the-air accompaniment about how the true purity of D&D is more important than anybody's satisfaction with it. I'm not sure how that can be construed as anything but "abandon game and leave me alone"
Suggesting you try another TTRPG system than to change 5e isnt the same as "abandon game and leave me alone" and it certainly isnt "shut up and abandon D&D forever". The comments I assume you are referring to are those by Kotath and Snarloc_Stormcall. Neither have told you to stop playing D&D forever, just to try something new.
Your representing other poster's comments in a purposefully dishonest manner to make it seem like they are more vile and hostile towards you than they are being in reality.
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Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I mean, I could point to at least three separate posters in the last two pages who have said "So stop playing D&D and do something else", usually with all sort of highfalutin', nose-in-the-air accompaniment about how the true purity of D&D is more important than anybody's satisfaction with it. I'm not sure how that can be construed as anything but "abandon game and leave me alone"
Suggesting you try another TTRPG system than to change 5e isnt the same as "abandon game and leave me alone" and it certainly isnt "shut up and abandon D&D forever". The comments I assume you are referring to are those by Kotath and Snarloc_Stormcall. Neither have told you to stop playing D&D forever, just to try something new.
Your representing other poster's comments in a purposefully dishonest manner to make it seem like they are more vile and hostile towards you than they are being in reality.
Just curious, but are you here to contribute to the topic or just harass Yurei?
Are we seriously still discussing the martial-caster thing?
It isn't relevant to this thread. For all I care martials could have access to the entire wizard's spellbook and spellcasting and it still wouldn't change the existence of Level Up. Accept the fact that it exists already so people can move on to discussing if the ideas they presented are actually good or not.
Edit: To clarify, the martial-caster discussion is interesting and likely a important topic for the future of 5E, but it's irrelevant and off-topic to the actual thread and should be moved elsewhere. I came here to check out a new project to see if there is any good new pieces of design I should know about and apply to my own games, not to discuss the caster-martial division which has already been talked 20 pages into death.
Are we seriously still discussing the martial-caster thing?
It isn't any relevant to this thread. For all I care martials could have access to the entire wizard's spellbook and spellcasting and it still wouldn't change the existence of Level Up. Just accept the fact that it exists already and move on to discussing if the ideas present are actually good or not.
I have tried, but it just keeps coming back to this.
This is such a bizarre argument to read. One side is saying martial classes have fewer options, and the other side is saying, "but you get subclasses and skills and magic items and can craft things and can just make stuff up for the DM to adjudicate!" Everyone gets those things.
"You get extra attacks" as if cantrips didn't scale accordingly.
"Warlocks only get a few spells" conveniently forgetting pacts and invocations - warlocks basically get two subclasses.
I think you guys need to realize that you're not arguing in good faith. There's no logic here, just blind adherence to belief. Now if you want to say, "Martial classes are simpler and that's how I want them to be," that's a legitimate argument. Say that if that's how you feel. But trying to argue that every class has an equal number of decision points when spellcasters literally choose spells every level and some martials make their last choice at level 3 is just... absurd.
That's because everyone has those abilities. Between "I have useful skills" and "I have useful skills and useful spells", which is higher utility?
They could, of course, give higher level martial characters a bunch more skills, and maybe give them all expertise, and then there'd be at least a legitimate argument, but they didn't.
Ok then. Tell me a caster that has fewer options in or out of combat than the Fighter.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
You keep referring to a ‘basic fighter’ but there is no such thing. The various sub-classes ad a tonne of extra options, and they are hugely variable ranging from the spells that Eldritch Knights get to the incredibly powerful options that an Echo Knight has. When all you do is compare the standard fighter abilities without a subclass to a fully fledged wizard then of course the fighter will come out with less total versatility. The real issue here is not that a well made fighter has less options, it’s that you don’t understand the options they have or how to use them to get the best out of them. Your lack of imagination and knowledge is not a fault with the game’s design.
Thanks, Third, that tracks with what I scanned.
As for the topic at hand I don't know what the big argument is. ENWorld is producing maybe a higher brand recognition roll out, but in the end it's just options no different from the annual dozen or more 3rd party option books published on the regular for 5e. Do players like considering options for their tables, maybe not universally but there's clearly a market for it.
I don't see ENWorld's project "saving" or "breaking" 5e. It's a parallel product that some will either swear by or shrug off, sorta like Strongholds and Followers and
Followup and What I Really Meant to SayKingdoms and Warfare.Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
All classes get subclass that add a ton of extra options. All subclasses for classes are hugely variable. They all get them on top of their base class abilities. The only class that really doesn't care greatly about subclass is the Wizard. Take any Fighter, complete with subclass and compare it to the options avaible each round to a Cleric, Wizard or Druid and it will come up lacking.
Lets do some math here.
A 5th level Fighter(Rune Knight) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, Second Wind, Enlarge yourself or activate the Stone or Frost Rune. Oh, and you can attack with a weapon 2 more times. 5 options two of which are attack with weapon.
A 5th level Warlock(Hexblade) can do the following: Attack with a weapon twice, cast one of 3 Cantrips, one of 6 spells, or one of 3 invocations. 13 options there.
A 5th level Cleric (War) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, attack with a weapon again, cast one of 4 cantrips or one of 9 spells, or Channel Divinity. That is a total of 15 options.
Lets go with Rogue now. A 5th level Rogue(Thief) can do the following: Attack with a weapon, bonus action Dash, Disengage or Hide, Bonus action use and Object or Sleight of Hand. So pretty close to the fighter at 6 options.
I don't plan to do all the classes, but as you can see, from two examples that Martial seem to have fewer options than casters do.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
That was pretty much the point behind me starting the thread, way back when it was actually current. "Hey, look - there's these books designed specifically for the sort of people Kotath/Beardsinger/the rest claim don't exist, i.e. people who would like more meat on the bones of 5e, and they're being made by a company with some clout behind them and not just some indie yaybo on Kickstarter hoping to make it biggish with a one-and-done book. if they're really successful, I wonder what that says about the market for more advanced rules overlays for 5e?"
I have subsequently been informed to shut up, abandond D&D forever, and ideally extinguish myself in a motel room somewhere, so...yeah. That was cool. But also sorta expected for this place, I suppose.
Please do not contact or message me.
Fighter is definitely a bit of a 'skeleton' base class that is highly dependent on the subclasses to flesh them out. And wizards are relatively less reliant on subclasses. I think because of this sort of thing it's important to compare the whole picture and not just base classes.
Either way, listing out the 'number' of options here, feels a lit off. For warlock for example, how many of those cantrips and spells are going to be useful in that moment? How many of those invocations are just passive benefits and not new choices to make in combat? Are we at the start of a new adventuring day or has the caster gone through most of their spell slots now?
Same could be said for any class or subclass feature. Not all features are useful in a given situations and uses of features get spent for Fighters as well. So just as spell slot are spent, so are uses of Second Wind, Action Surge and Enlarge.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
This might be the issue with my opinion is I come in as someone who learnt to DM without much more information then DND gives now and I certainly did not have the vast array of online resources to help new DMs learn about things like a session 0 (was not a concept 20+ years ago), or online streams to give ideas for combat narration. I think it is almost impossible to provide a written resource that truly gets across to a new DM hiw to DM as it is such a personal thing.
Maybe the answer here isn’t another book but more errata or FAQ answers online. Maybe Wizard should provide those kind of basic helpers with examples of roleplay situations online in an article format because the fact is, certainly the way my group play, that the things that make me stop and think a beat are so out there that I can’t see WOTC or anyone covering it off.
I mean, how much damage does a cow do when thrown at a human sized figure, how do we handle the situation where the bars has decided to try and seduce the queen, in front of the king and when a players summons an air elemental to try and blow out a fire how should I work out the mechanics of that.
As far as the basic rules go the PHB does a good job of explaining them, the actual “rules” section of the game is really light weight compared to other systems, in the past I was used to systems that had a players book that was just character creation, then a rule book that was just the rules, all 2-300 pages of them, and then a Dungeon masters guide or some sort of monster manual.
The DMG is to me a lightweight book, I have it mainly for completeness and the magic items but I can see how someone brand new to the idea of creating a world might find it useful to think of things like pantheons, or consider the basic rules of story telling. But if you where going to put more rules info in there even if just clarity what do you take out?
The CR rating is an issue but I have yet to find a roleplay system that creates an accurate mathematical model to tell you how hard your encounter is going to be, someone may correct me but to my mind balancing encounters is a just something you get a feel for over time.
And maybe this is the problem (this might sound like an old man taking now) but good GMing is not and never has been something that can be taught in a book, it comes with practice and getting things wrong. It seems like a certain generation expect to be able to do a thing without needing to put in the effort and work to get good at it but the real fact remains it just takes time. I would say over 20+ years of being a GM I was probably only really “good” in my opinion the last 5-6 years, yes before that everyone had fun but I probably spent the first 8-10 years being far to rules lawyery, and then the next 5 years breaking a ton of bad habits. But also the way we play TTRPGs has changed.
I don’t see there is much in the way of published material that WOTC can produce. Matt Mercer did a series of helpers for DMing, most of it feels like sucking eggs to me, but I realize to someone brand new it might all be a revelation. To put all that in a book would take up a whole DMG on its own, and most of us would not buy it because it is all so basic.
So yes there are issues but I don’t think another published book will help them.
But I might be wrong and maybe there is a silver bullet that could suddenly make it easy for anyone to DM any situation from a page in a book without producing a 400 page tome that tabulates every situation and takes all DM flair and imagination away? (And I mean that seriously not as sarcastically as it comes across)
How commonly useful is Action Surge or Enlarging ones self?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Not all skill proficiencies, tool proficiencies (hah), or janky ribbon subclass features specifically intended to be nichey, narrow, and useful very rarely are going to be useful all the time either. A rogue is just as capable of picking the 'wrong' skills as a caster is of picking the 'wrong' spells, and unlike the caster the rogue will never get another chance to pick new skills or switch her skills out unless the DM steps beyond the game to allow it.
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Conveniently picked the ones that have pretty limited utility? How does that prove any point? I mean, we can instead compare to a Celestial warlock and a Knowledge cleric, but doing so won't make the fighter look better.
This isn’t “stepping beyond the game” it is applying common sense, I think this is the fundamental thing people forget about DND, they rules are a guide, DND was never intended to be played RAW, Gary Gygax’s defining principle was always take these as inspiration and make your own game out of them.
The more “crunch” DND adds the less it becomes the game it’s creator envisaged. It is why I find rules lawyering in DND so pointless, rules lawyering breaks the very first rule of the game.
If you don’t like that then play a different game, there are loads out there that add more rules, there are games that litterely have tables for every little thing and take more and more away from the GM’s decision makings, and no I am not being snarky here I mean it DND may not be the game for you, that is ok there are loads of RPGs out there and one of them will tick the boxes of what you want.
Once again, no one said any of that. I don't know where you expect to get with this strategy. Anyone who is genuinely interested can look back through the comments and see that no one is saying anything as extreme as how you frame it in your comments.
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
I mean, I could point to at least three separate posters in the last two pages who have said "So stop playing D&D and do something else", usually with all sort of highfalutin', nose-in-the-air accompaniment about how the true purity of D&D is more important than anybody's satisfaction with it. I'm not sure how that can be construed as anything but "abandon game and leave me alone"
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Suggesting you try another TTRPG system than to change 5e isnt the same as "abandon game and leave me alone" and it certainly isnt "shut up and abandon D&D forever". The comments I assume you are referring to are those by Kotath and Snarloc_Stormcall. Neither have told you to stop playing D&D forever, just to try something new.
Your representing other poster's comments in a purposefully dishonest manner to make it seem like they are more vile and hostile towards you than they are being in reality.
Four-time Judge of the Competition of the Finest Brews! Come join us in making fun, unique homebrew and voting for your favorite entries!
Just curious, but are you here to contribute to the topic or just harass Yurei?
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
Are we seriously still discussing the martial-caster thing?
It isn't relevant to this thread. For all I care martials could have access to the entire wizard's spellbook and spellcasting and it still wouldn't change the existence of Level Up. Accept the fact that it exists already so people can move on to discussing if the ideas they presented are actually good or not.
Edit: To clarify, the martial-caster discussion is interesting and likely a important topic for the future of 5E, but it's irrelevant and off-topic to the actual thread and should be moved elsewhere. I came here to check out a new project to see if there is any good new pieces of design I should know about and apply to my own games, not to discuss the caster-martial division which has already been talked 20 pages into death.
if I edit a message, most of the time it's because of grammar. The rest of the time I'll put "Edit:" at the bottom.
I have tried, but it just keeps coming back to this.
She/Her Player and Dungeon Master
This is such a bizarre argument to read. One side is saying martial classes have fewer options, and the other side is saying, "but you get subclasses and skills and magic items and can craft things and can just make stuff up for the DM to adjudicate!" Everyone gets those things.
"You get extra attacks" as if cantrips didn't scale accordingly.
"Warlocks only get a few spells" conveniently forgetting pacts and invocations - warlocks basically get two subclasses.
I think you guys need to realize that you're not arguing in good faith. There's no logic here, just blind adherence to belief. Now if you want to say, "Martial classes are simpler and that's how I want them to be," that's a legitimate argument. Say that if that's how you feel. But trying to argue that every class has an equal number of decision points when spellcasters literally choose spells every level and some martials make their last choice at level 3 is just... absurd.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm