As to your first point, I have been around long enough to know that any game with “builds” has a meta, and that people will build to the meta. I cannot speak to the current edition of 40k, but last edition was Imperial soup and Slam Captains for days. look at WoW. D&d is no different, the only reason we have the variety of “builds” we have now is because of those restrictions that make playing anything but an Aarakocra or a Yaun-Ti look more attractive for certain builds.
40k, probably WoW (I don't know I haven't played it), M:tG are all games with meta builds. The difference between those games and D&D is that those are competitive games. D&D isn't.
Horse poopy. The only reason AL exists is so that people can whip out their builds and measure. It’s the type 2 of D&D.
D&D is not a competitive game. The is no winning or loosing. That is the definition of a competitive game. AL is not designed to be competitive either.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Sort of like all of you telling us who have played the game for eons the existing game itself is awful, and we are awful for liking and defending it. And yeah, that does happen. I remember, what, 24 hours ago the "bigot" word being thrown around. When the aggressor plays the victim card.
Look, your campaign was successful. You has won. WOTC is introducing a system that opens the door that completely changes how a char is built, and what that char is. The canard about how this is "optional" will shown for what it is when systems like AL start introducing it, and unless DM's are hyper-vigilant, people will try to sneak chars into games built on it, no matter what the DM wants, then those people will scream blue murder if a DM does put a stop to it. Then your group moves onto species specific Feats, and ultimately, species specific abilities.
So congrats. Well played. Brilliant use of social media to convince WOTC. Sorry that old folks like myself who have played the game for 40 years are slowing the process of wiping out anything that reminds people of the history of this game. But yeah, I will hold the line, for as long as I can, against the Visogoths coming over the last set of hills.
And there are plenty of old players that are loving these changes. I have been playing since AD&D and I believe that these changes are welcomed. what campaign was successful? The one in which WoTC has stated that the mission was 5e was to be diverse and they are trying to be better? yes you don’t like the changes but there are plenty of us old-timers that are like yea makes sense.
That would be an interesting survey. I've been playing since Dec 1979, I don't care for the changes.
Cool. You do you. You are also aware that there is only a minority of people that actual post here so we can’t get a good measure of what percent of older players would prefer the changes or not. I don’t see what is so bad with letting group play with the changes or without the changes as they seem fit.
True, this forum only represents a small sample of the population, but I was thinking about a broader survey beyond the confines of this site.
There seems to be this assumption that just because we don't like the changes we are somehow preventing others from playing the way they want. That narrative is incorrect.
My primary concern is that these optional rules will eventually become official rules, and with further changes down the road (like a snowball growing as it rolls down a hill) , will white wash/homogenize the differences between species making them little more than human variants.
Sort of like all of you telling us who have played the game for eons the existing game itself is awful, and we are awful for liking and defending it. And yeah, that does happen. I remember, what, 24 hours ago the "bigot" word being thrown around. When the aggressor plays the victim card.
Look, your campaign was successful. You has won. WOTC is introducing a system that opens the door that completely changes how a char is built, and what that char is. The canard about how this is "optional" will shown for what it is when systems like AL start introducing it, and unless DM's are hyper-vigilant, people will try to sneak chars into games built on it, no matter what the DM wants, then those people will scream blue murder if a DM does put a stop to it. Then your group moves onto species specific Feats, and ultimately, species specific abilities.
So congrats. Well played. Brilliant use of social media to convince WOTC. Sorry that old folks like myself who have played the game for 40 years are slowing the process of wiping out anything that reminds people of the history of this game. But yeah, I will hold the line, for as long as I can, against the Visogoths coming over the last set of hills.
And there are plenty of old players that are loving these changes. I have been playing since AD&D and I believe that these changes are welcomed. what campaign was successful? The one in which WoTC has stated that the mission was 5e was to be diverse and they are trying to be better? yes you don’t like the changes but there are plenty of us old-timers that are like yea makes sense.
That would be an interesting survey. I've been playing since Dec 1979, I don't care for the changes.
Cool. You do you. You are also aware that there is only a minority of people that actual post here so we can’t get a good measure of what percent of older players would prefer the changes or not. I don’t see what is so bad with letting group play with the changes or without the changes as they seem fit.
Same old canard. These changes WILL become the only official way to play. Once these changes are forced into AL (which they will by definition as soon as the new book can be the +! book), the jig is up. Don't even try to argue otherwise.
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as our racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
Maybe like instead of a Yuan-ti having Poison Immunity to represent them as being a poisonous species, they could instead have a tail that allows them to make a constricting attack like a Boa or Python. Or giving the Loxodon a Gore attack option with their Tusks. Maybe an Aasimar could have a closer tie to their celestial ansectry and gain flight as a racial feature. Maybe a Kenku could "awaken" its creativity.
I personally hope they do, though I don't know how likely that will be.
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as out racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
By the logic some on this thread are espousing, any trait that would synergize with your class really well, and that you are not allowed to pick because you "didn't choose the right race" would be "penalizing" the character. So I do not see any logic under which they could argue that any trait at all, would be allowed to be tied to a race and not be able to be used unless you play that race. Darkvision, poison immunity, charm resistance, stone cunning, hellish rebuke, fire breathing, speak with small animals. Not allowing you to have one when you want it, when you "need" it to "be effective" would be exactly the same "penalty" as not allowing you to have a +2 in your prime stat. Many of these are arguably far more effective than a mere +2 to a stat you could have raised at level 4 anyway (especially trivial for the many groups that start at level 3). I can see no logically consistent argument for why not allowing everyone to put +2 into cha rather than just tieflings is a penalty, but you don't also have to allow anyone who wants it to have the formerly tiefling-based fire resistance. Surely fire resistance is "needed" by any character just as much as +2 cha, maybe more so if they are going to fight fire-based enemies. Not letting them have it is a penalty --- you are punishing them for not being a tiefling or forcing them to make one up just to get the fire resistance.
Any racial feature, not just +stats, should logically be subsumed under this argument, including any new ones WOTC might want to make up to replace old ones.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Sort of like all of you telling us who have played the game for eons the existing game itself is awful, and we are awful for liking and defending it. And yeah, that does happen. I remember, what, 24 hours ago the "bigot" word being thrown around. When the aggressor plays the victim card.
Look, your campaign was successful. You has won. WOTC is introducing a system that opens the door that completely changes how a char is built, and what that char is. The canard about how this is "optional" will shown for what it is when systems like AL start introducing it, and unless DM's are hyper-vigilant, people will try to sneak chars into games built on it, no matter what the DM wants, then those people will scream blue murder if a DM does put a stop to it. Then your group moves onto species specific Feats, and ultimately, species specific abilities.
So congrats. Well played. Brilliant use of social media to convince WOTC. Sorry that old folks like myself who have played the game for 40 years are slowing the process of wiping out anything that reminds people of the history of this game. But yeah, I will hold the line, for as long as I can, against the Visogoths coming over the last set of hills.
And there are plenty of old players that are loving these changes. I have been playing since AD&D and I believe that these changes are welcomed. what campaign was successful? The one in which WoTC has stated that the mission was 5e was to be diverse and they are trying to be better? yes you don’t like the changes but there are plenty of us old-timers that are like yea makes sense.
That would be an interesting survey. I've been playing since Dec 1979, I don't care for the changes.
Cool. You do you. You are also aware that there is only a minority of people that actual post here so we can’t get a good measure of what percent of older players would prefer the changes or not. I don’t see what is so bad with letting group play with the changes or without the changes as they seem fit.
Same old canard. These changes WILL become the only official way to play. Once these changes are forced into AL (which they will by definition as soon as the new book can be the +! book), the jig is up. Don't even try to argue otherwise.
This is hyperbolic rhetoric. Not everyone plays AL. Those who don’t play in AL have a choice in what they play. As long as they are optional, who cares how people play it. And here is the thing even if they do make it official your group can choose to not play that way and instead continuing to play as the game is played now or go back to an earlier edition. Also I love that word you used as it can also be used describe what you just said as well as everything in this thread.
"There seems to be this assumption that just because we don't like the changes we are somehow preventing others from playing the way they want. That narrative is incorrect." ~Grunk999
I dunno. A lot of folks here are doing a pretty bang-up job of trying to convince people they're terrible for not wanting to Respect The Boundaries Of Biological Species.
"My primary concern is that these optional rules will eventually become official rules, and with further changes down the road (like a snowball growing as it rolls down a hill) , will white wash/homogenize the differences between species making them little more than human variants." ~Grunk999
These are official rules. That's entirely the point. Rules can be both Official(C) and Optional(TM). You're terrified that this 'optional' rule will become a soft requirement because it will prove enormously popular?
First of all...at that point the rule is enormously popular.
Second of all, allow me to point you to Variant Encumbrance. An interesting and also entirely optional rule in which carry weight is drastically reduced and affects speed quite quickly. It is one of the only Official Optional Rules supported on DDB. Many players, and even many DMs, do not know it exists despite the fact that variant encumbrance is an overall better rule than standard encumbrance.
Not all optional rules gain the sort of widespread adoption and favor that things like feats and multiclassing do. You'll be fine.
***
It occurred to me, as I was laying in bed pondering the intricacies of life this morning, that a DM would be - quite rightly - skinned alive if she told her players "I'm going to decide your character's stats for you" out of the blue, with no rhyme or reason. Just pointed at the half-orc and said "You get 17/13/15/8/12/10. Write those down, that's your stat array. I don't heckin' care that you're a druid, write those numbers down. And you, halfling fighter. You get 8/17/10/13/12/15. Write those down. Did I ask about your background as a militia protector of your Shire? No. Write those down."
A DM who pulled that sort of shit without a fantastic goddamn reason would be burned at the stake - or at least find herself very quickly with no players left. A DM who pulled that nonsense without discussing it with her players and obtaining their permission and buy-in, even with the fantastic goddamn reason, would find herself in the same toasty circumstances. A DM can set boundaries on what can and cannot be selected for her game. She can opt different rules, different bits of books, and even entire books themselves out of her game. But if she were to just hand out stats and impose Species Standard Stat Arrays on her players without any care for those players' stories and the specific characters they wanted to play, she'd be out of a job before Session 0 was done.
How is the current situation with species any different?
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
All this hoo-hah about how species traits "only represent the average" is so much hogwash when a DM then forces every last single character of a given species to conform exactly and precisely to that average. From the freshest-born babe to the most wizened of elders - man, woman, child, everything in between. Oldest to youngest, smartest to dumbest, strongest to weakest - save that there is no actual 'strongest', 'smartest', dumbest', or 'weakest', because every last single single half-orc in the entire world is exactly the same. That's not an "average". That's a mold, churning out an endless supply of identical dupliclones.
Because everybody knows that the entirety of a species and every last single member of that species can be easily and accurately summarized by a description of one, singular individual within that species, hm?
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as out racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
Maybe like instead of a Yuan-ti having Poison Immunity to represent them as being a poisonous species, they could instead have a tail that allows them to make a constricting attack like a Boa or Python. Or giving the Loxodon a Gore attack option with their Tusks. Maybe an Aasimar could have a closer tie to their celestial ansectry and gain flight as a racial feature. Maybe a Kenku could "awaken" its creativity.
I personally hope they do, though I don't know how likely that will be.
I think this would be a cool idea. It would give more options and not stymy a race into a stereotype. I don’t know what changes they are making but this would be a very awesome thing to do.
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as out racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
Maybe like instead of a Yuan-ti having Poison Immunity to represent them as being a poisonous species, they could instead have a tail that allows them to make a constricting attack like a Boa or Python. Or giving the Loxodon a Gore attack option with their Tusks. Maybe an Aasimar could have a closer tie to their celestial ansectry and gain flight as a racial feature. Maybe a Kenku could "awaken" its creativity.
I personally hope they do, though I don't know how likely that will be.
I think this would be a cool idea. It would give more options and not stymy a race into a stereotype. I don’t know what changes they are making but this would be a very awesome thing to do.
Yeah, I think it would be cool too!
I'm still a bit uncertain about the changes to the rules (optional as they are of course). But.....if its coming anyways, I might as well focus on what could potentially be some really great additions to character creation!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
14/13/15/12/10/8 becomes 16/13/16/12/10/8
8/15/13/12/14/10 becomes 10/15/14/12/14/10
12/10/13/18/14/15 becomes 14/10/14/8/14/15
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
The first would make a fantastic Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian.
The second would make a fantastic Rogue, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.
The third would make a fantastic Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, or Fighter.
How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
First and foremost, the different "races" in D&D, are not different races, but rather, they are different species.
Different species, have different attributes. What is wrong with, for example, Half Orcs being inherently stronger than most other species? Is it wrong to acknowledge that a fish is a better swimmer than a cat? Is it wrong to say a cheetah is inherently faster than a turtle? (you know, different species...)
If all of the species in D&D start out with the same base stats, then what is the point of having different species? Might as well have a single species that you can customize any way you want.
Is this really what the majority of players want, or is WOC just trying to appeal to a certain group, most of whom aren't even interested in D&D?
It's wotc jumping on the PC train, and it annoys me. I like that certain races are better at certain things.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
The way I personally would handle it for a 5e system is to say you get a +1 for the race’s primary stat, and a +1 to any stat except primary. And then the subrace gives you a +1 to either Primary or secondary.
So, for example, Elves would get +1 Dex and +1 to anything but Dex, and then Wood would give +1 to either Dex or Wis, High would get +1 to Dex or Int, Drow would get +1 to Dex or Cha.
That way race still matters as far as builds go, but it is nowhere near as restrictive.
I could be on board with this.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as out racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
Maybe like instead of a Yuan-ti having Poison Immunity to represent them as being a poisonous species, they could instead have a tail that allows them to make a constricting attack like a Boa or Python. Or giving the Loxodon a Gore attack option with their Tusks. Maybe an Aasimar could have a closer tie to their celestial ansectry and gain flight as a racial feature. Maybe a Kenku could "awaken" its creativity.
I personally hope they do, though I don't know how likely that will be.
I think this would be a cool idea. It would give more options and not stymy a race into a stereotype. I don’t know what changes they are making but this would be a very awesome thing to do.
Yeah, I think it would be cool too!
I'm still a bit uncertain about the changes to the rules (optional as they are of course). But.....if its coming anyways, I might as well focus on what could potentially be some really great additions to character creation!
That is what I have been trying to do but it seems like some people don’t like change. I love the myriad possibilities that exist. If I could trade my character’s darkvision for something that would be better for an arctic human than I would as darkvision doesn’t add that much to the character and she has a light spell anyway for being an Aasimar so having that and darkvision never made that sense to me. I would like to keep the rest as they can help her tribe and others out.
The way I personally would handle it for a 5e system is to say you get a +1 for the race’s primary stat, and a +1 to any stat except primary. And then the subrace gives you a +1 to either Primary or secondary.
So, for example, Elves would get +1 Dex and +1 to anything but Dex, and then Wood would give +1 to either Dex or Wis, High would get +1 to Dex or Int, Drow would get +1 to Dex or Cha.
That way race still matters as far as builds go, but it is nowhere near as restrictive.
I could be on board with this.
Thanks! I thought it would work too. Apparently I was wrong and should feel bad for it since I was told that was just a compromise that would ultimately just make everyone unhappy. 🤷♂️
First and foremost, the different "races" in D&D, are not different races, but rather, they are different species.
Different species, have different attributes. What is wrong with, for example, Half Orcs being inherently stronger than most other species? Is it wrong to acknowledge that a fish is a better swimmer than a cat? Is it wrong to say a cheetah is inherently faster than a turtle? (you know, different species...)
If all of the species in D&D start out with the same base stats, then what is the point of having different species? Might as well have a single species that you can customize any way you want.
Is this really what the majority of players want, or is WOC just trying to appeal to a certain group, most of whom aren't even interested in D&D?
It's wotc jumping on the PC train, and it annoys me. I like that certain races are better at certain things.
I agree. Some people here are claiming that the optional rules were made because they were popular. You and I know that it was driven by pressure from certain groups.
The idea that diversity, whatever its form or reason for existence, is an inherently bad thing and should be squashed or denigrated is kind of an awful one, ne?
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
14/13/15/12/10/8 becomes 16/13/16/12/10/8
8/15/13/14/10/12 becomes 10/15/14/14/10/12
12/10/13/18/14/15 becomes 14/10/14/8/14/15
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
The first would make a fantastic Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian.
The second would make a fantastic Rogue, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.
The third would make a fantastic Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, or Fighter.
How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
By that logic a Half-Orc getting a +2 in Int and +1 in Wis don't make them any less unique than any other combination because anyone can have any stat array. Numbers aren't what make any race unique.
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
14/13/15/12/10/8 becomes 16/13/16/12/10/8
8/15/13/14/10/12 becomes 10/15/14/14/10/12
12/10/13/18/14/15 becomes 14/10/14/8/14/15
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
The first would make a fantastic Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian.
The second would make a fantastic Rogue, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.
The third would make a fantastic Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, or Fighter.
How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
By that logic a Half-Orc getting a +2 in Int and +1 in Wis don't make them any less unique than any other combination because anyone can have any stat array. Numbers aren't what make any race unique.
By that logic, who needs the +2/+1 anywhere they want? So, thank you for proving my point I guess?
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as out racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
By the logic some on this thread are espousing, any trait that would synergize with your class really well, and that you are not allowed to pick because you "didn't choose the right race" would be "penalizing" the character. So I do not see any logic under which they could argue that any trait at all, would be allowed to be tied to a race and not be able to be used unless you play that race. Darkvision, poison immunity, charm resistance, stone cunning, hellish rebuke, fire breathing, speak with small animals. Not allowing you to have one when you want it, when you "need" it to "be effective" would be exactly the same "penalty" as not allowing you to have a +2 in your prime stat. Many of these are arguably far more effective than a mere +2 to a stat you could have raised at level 4 anyway (especially trivial for the many groups that start at level 3). I can see no logically consistent argument for why not allowing everyone to put +2 into cha rather than just tieflings is a penalty, but you don't also have to allow anyone who wants it to have the formerly tiefling-based fire resistance. Surely fire resistance is "needed" by any character just as much as +2 cha, maybe more so if they are going to fight fire-based enemies. Not letting them have it is a penalty --- you are punishing them for not being a tiefling or forcing them to make one up just to get the fire resistance.
Any racial feature, not just +stats, should logically be subsumed under this argument, including any new ones WOTC might want to make up to replace old ones.
I mean, I think there is an argument to be made for traits more tied to the culture or upbringing of a member of a race (i.e. skill and tool proficiency) vs the literal biology of a race (i.e. Aarakocra's flight or Minotaurs Gore attack with their horns).
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
14/13/15/12/10/8 becomes 16/13/16/12/10/8
8/15/13/14/10/12 becomes 10/15/14/14/10/12
12/10/13/18/14/15 becomes 14/10/14/8/14/15
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
The first would make a fantastic Fighter, Ranger, or Barbarian.
The second would make a fantastic Rogue, Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.
The third would make a fantastic Paladin, Sorcerer, Bard, Warlock, or Fighter.
How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
By that logic a Half-Orc getting a +2 in Int and +1 in Wis don't make them any less unique than any other combination because anyone can have any stat array. Numbers aren't what make any race unique.
By that logic, who needs the +2/+1 anywhere they want? So, thank you for proving my point I guess?
Ok so by that logic, you don’t need the +2/+1 for specific races either. I mean really those +2/+1 are not needed on races to make unique. So therefore if it isn’t needed for the race than why can’t it go anywhere or just be dropped altogether?
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D&D is not a competitive game. The is no winning or loosing. That is the definition of a competitive game. AL is not designed to be competitive either.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
True, this forum only represents a small sample of the population, but I was thinking about a broader survey beyond the confines of this site.
There seems to be this assumption that just because we don't like the changes we are somehow preventing others from playing the way they want. That narrative is incorrect.
My primary concern is that these optional rules will eventually become official rules, and with further changes down the road (like a snowball growing as it rolls down a hill) , will white wash/homogenize the differences between species making them little more than human variants.
Same old canard. These changes WILL become the only official way to play. Once these changes are forced into AL (which they will by definition as soon as the new book can be the +! book), the jig is up. Don't even try to argue otherwise.
I do have to wonder though, if we are going to be able to pick and choose racial features as well as our racial ASI......will they be introducing new racial features?
Maybe like instead of a Yuan-ti having Poison Immunity to represent them as being a poisonous species, they could instead have a tail that allows them to make a constricting attack like a Boa or Python. Or giving the Loxodon a Gore attack option with their Tusks. Maybe an Aasimar could have a closer tie to their celestial ansectry and gain flight as a racial feature. Maybe a Kenku could "awaken" its creativity.
I personally hope they do, though I don't know how likely that will be.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
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By the logic some on this thread are espousing, any trait that would synergize with your class really well, and that you are not allowed to pick because you "didn't choose the right race" would be "penalizing" the character. So I do not see any logic under which they could argue that any trait at all, would be allowed to be tied to a race and not be able to be used unless you play that race. Darkvision, poison immunity, charm resistance, stone cunning, hellish rebuke, fire breathing, speak with small animals. Not allowing you to have one when you want it, when you "need" it to "be effective" would be exactly the same "penalty" as not allowing you to have a +2 in your prime stat. Many of these are arguably far more effective than a mere +2 to a stat you could have raised at level 4 anyway (especially trivial for the many groups that start at level 3). I can see no logically consistent argument for why not allowing everyone to put +2 into cha rather than just tieflings is a penalty, but you don't also have to allow anyone who wants it to have the formerly tiefling-based fire resistance. Surely fire resistance is "needed" by any character just as much as +2 cha, maybe more so if they are going to fight fire-based enemies. Not letting them have it is a penalty --- you are punishing them for not being a tiefling or forcing them to make one up just to get the fire resistance.
Any racial feature, not just +stats, should logically be subsumed under this argument, including any new ones WOTC might want to make up to replace old ones.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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This is hyperbolic rhetoric. Not everyone plays AL. Those who don’t play in AL have a choice in what they play. As long as they are optional, who cares how people play it. And here is the thing even if they do make it official your group can choose to not play that way and instead continuing to play as the game is played now or go back to an earlier edition. Also I love that word you used as it can also be used describe what you just said as well as everything in this thread.
"There seems to be this assumption that just because we don't like the changes we are somehow preventing others from playing the way they want. That narrative is incorrect."
~Grunk999
I dunno. A lot of folks here are doing a pretty bang-up job of trying to convince people they're terrible for not wanting to Respect The Boundaries Of Biological Species.
"My primary concern is that these optional rules will eventually become official rules, and with further changes down the road (like a snowball growing as it rolls down a hill) , will white wash/homogenize the differences between species making them little more than human variants."
~Grunk999
These are official rules. That's entirely the point. Rules can be both Official(C) and Optional(TM). You're terrified that this 'optional' rule will become a soft requirement because it will prove enormously popular?
First of all...at that point the rule is enormously popular.
Second of all, allow me to point you to Variant Encumbrance. An interesting and also entirely optional rule in which carry weight is drastically reduced and affects speed quite quickly. It is one of the only Official Optional Rules supported on DDB. Many players, and even many DMs, do not know it exists despite the fact that variant encumbrance is an overall better rule than standard encumbrance.
Not all optional rules gain the sort of widespread adoption and favor that things like feats and multiclassing do. You'll be fine.
***
It occurred to me, as I was laying in bed pondering the intricacies of life this morning, that a DM would be - quite rightly - skinned alive if she told her players "I'm going to decide your character's stats for you" out of the blue, with no rhyme or reason. Just pointed at the half-orc and said "You get 17/13/15/8/12/10. Write those down, that's your stat array. I don't heckin' care that you're a druid, write those numbers down. And you, halfling fighter. You get 8/17/10/13/12/15. Write those down. Did I ask about your background as a militia protector of your Shire? No. Write those down."
A DM who pulled that sort of shit without a fantastic goddamn reason would be burned at the stake - or at least find herself very quickly with no players left. A DM who pulled that nonsense without discussing it with her players and obtaining their permission and buy-in, even with the fantastic goddamn reason, would find herself in the same toasty circumstances. A DM can set boundaries on what can and cannot be selected for her game. She can opt different rules, different bits of books, and even entire books themselves out of her game. But if she were to just hand out stats and impose Species Standard Stat Arrays on her players without any care for those players' stories and the specific characters they wanted to play, she'd be out of a job before Session 0 was done.
How is the current situation with species any different?
According to the PHB, every single half-orc in the entire world is completely identical. There's absolutely no variation between them. If you have the misfortune to be born as a half-orc, you are genetically identical to every other half-orc that has ever lived or will ever live. Your abilities, your talents, your life's path, all were decided before you were born by the fact that one of your parents was a human - which is the only species in THE ENTIRE WORLD which has the ability to display even minor genetic diversity rather than being an entire species of clones - and the other parent was a socially dubious pigman with Unfortunate Implications.
All this hoo-hah about how species traits "only represent the average" is so much hogwash when a DM then forces every last single character of a given species to conform exactly and precisely to that average. From the freshest-born babe to the most wizened of elders - man, woman, child, everything in between. Oldest to youngest, smartest to dumbest, strongest to weakest - save that there is no actual 'strongest', 'smartest', dumbest', or 'weakest', because every last single single half-orc in the entire world is exactly the same. That's not an "average". That's a mold, churning out an endless supply of identical dupliclones.
Because everybody knows that the entirety of a species and every last single member of that species can be easily and accurately summarized by a description of one, singular individual within that species, hm?
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I think this would be a cool idea. It would give more options and not stymy a race into a stereotype. I don’t know what changes they are making but this would be a very awesome thing to do.
Yeah, I think it would be cool too!
I'm still a bit uncertain about the changes to the rules (optional as they are of course). But.....if its coming anyways, I might as well focus on what could potentially be some really great additions to character creation!
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
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Horse poopy. Every Half-Orc getting +2 Str and +1 Con does not make them “identical.”
There, that’s three drastically different Half-Orcs, all with standard array and normal Racial Bonuses. They will all play differently, and are each best suited to different classes.
Wizard, Artificer, Druid, Cleric, Ranger, Monk, or Fighter.How are they “identical” by any stretch of the imagination?
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It's wotc jumping on the PC train, and it annoys me. I like that certain races are better at certain things.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I could be on board with this.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That is what I have been trying to do but it seems like some people don’t like change. I love the myriad possibilities that exist. If I could trade my character’s darkvision for something that would be better for an arctic human than I would as darkvision doesn’t add that much to the character and she has a light spell anyway for being an Aasimar so having that and darkvision never made that sense to me. I would like to keep the rest as they can help her tribe and others out.
Thanks! I thought it would work too. Apparently I was wrong and should feel bad for it since I was told that was just a compromise that would ultimately just make everyone unhappy. 🤷♂️
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I agree. Some people here are claiming that the optional rules were made because they were popular. You and I know that it was driven by pressure from certain groups.
And who cares if it was?
The idea that diversity, whatever its form or reason for existence, is an inherently bad thing and should be squashed or denigrated is kind of an awful one, ne?
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By that logic a Half-Orc getting a +2 in Int and +1 in Wis don't make them any less unique than any other combination because anyone can have any stat array. Numbers aren't what make any race unique.
By that logic, who needs the +2/+1 anywhere they want? So, thank you for proving my point I guess?
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I mean, I think there is an argument to be made for traits more tied to the culture or upbringing of a member of a race (i.e. skill and tool proficiency) vs the literal biology of a race (i.e. Aarakocra's flight or Minotaurs Gore attack with their horns).
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Ok so by that logic, you don’t need the +2/+1 for specific races either. I mean really those +2/+1 are not needed on races to make unique. So therefore if it isn’t needed for the race than why can’t it go anywhere or just be dropped altogether?