@Yurei no problem, sorry I misinterpreted you. I guess I just don't see why the min-maxers can't just go on playing fantasy classics like high elf wizards, and why the story gamers need that little +1 to intelligence for their dwarf wizard. I enjoy both min-maxing and roleplaying, but I don't mind having to choose (usually the latter).
Kenku "lacking the spark of creativity" makes them impossible for a human being to play. Human beings cannot make themselves completely unable to adapt, improvise, or create new knowledge. It's ridiculous and an impossible standard to adhere to for the vast majority of players. Note that the Exandrian lore for the species stripped away that entire useless bunk - kenku can create just fine, they're simply afflicted by a dark god's curse that prevents them from speaking with their own words. They can still understand language, which is itself fundamentally creative. It also takes a very creative and clever mind to communicate effectively using a patchwork of scrambled memory rather than ordinary words.
If Matthew Mercer can alter a species' lore to fit his own world and the goals of his game - if Keith Baker can upend every last single idea of what it means to be any given species in the world of Eberron - and both of them do so with the most explicit possible blessing Wizards of the Coast can give a creator? Then a DM can decide that in her world halflings have more Charisma than they do Dexterity because they're not we're-not-hobbits-we-swear, they're actually a primarily piratical species known for their overwhelming swaggercock egos and ironclad assurance of their own superiority. Or a player can decide their elf was born with a physical impairment that results in 8 Dex even if the species is supposedly physically incapable of having a Dexterity Sacred Score lower than 19, and because of this debilitating impairment they had to work extra hard with something else just to try and keep up.
Lemme say this again: Keith Baker threw away every last inch of shitty Tolkienite lore for Eberron. His halflings are dinosaur-riding jungle tribals, his orcs are inquisitive and powerful equals of humanity, his elves are backwards masked worshippers of their own immortal ghosts, so on and so forth. Not only did Wizards say "Yeah, that's cool, do you man", they gave him a sourcebook. More than once. Eberron has a sourcebook and three-quarters in 5e and had at least the one back in 3.5, alongside however many others were printed back in Game Edition I Never Bothered With. He didn't change the numbers, but he was freely allowed to change everything else.
Clearly, changing stuff is fine. If it wasn't, neither Eberron nor Exandria would exist, ne?
EDIT:
As an aside, the "Exploring Eberron" sourcebook Keith Baker recently released on DM's Guild is an absolutely fantastic piece of work and cannot be recommended highly enough for anyone interested in running a game set in Eberron. I already consider it an absolutely essential, non-optional companion to Eberron Rising and can state it's worth every last cent of its purchase price. My only regret is that DDB can never make it available in the builder here, because Keith et al's work on it is phenomenal and deserves more recognition than it's goping to get on DM's Guild.
What podcast does Keith Baker do? I would like to listen this podcast and asap.
Wasn't your point earlier that everyone being human was bad? like you can't jump from earlier saying playing this way makes everyone a variant human and thats bad, but if you want that play a variant human. pick one.
I think the races should be different, or else there is no point to having them. I think the idea of an elf with no elven traits makes the character essentially a human. The fact that I think an elf with no elven traits is, de facto, a variant human, does not mean I don't want elves in the game. It means I think what you are calling an "elf" is not really an elf, because it has no elven traits. It's an elf in name only.
And my position is, when we get to the point that all the races are basically humans with a different name... that they are only elves or dwarves or kenku in name only, then I think D&D has lost something quite special. Something that the point-buy games like Champions have never had. Something that used to make D&D worth playing over those point buy games that were superior in other ways.
I do not see any inconsistency in what I have said -- that what you are doing is turning everything into humans with a different name and cosmetic appearance, and that doing this is a bad thing.
The only thing that we know atm is about the stat bonus. Everything else here is all conjecture. They might be keeping everything and have a few things that can be changed around.
The problem will come in when you start seeing things like dwarf wizard become the default race, because they get free armor proficiency.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
@Yurei no problem, sorry I misinterpreted you. I guess I just don't see why the min-maxers can't just go on playing fantasy classics like high elf wizards, and why the story gamers need that little +1 to intelligence for their dwarf wizard. I enjoy both min-maxing and roleplaying, but I don't mind having to choose (usually the latter).
I think the problem with understanding should start with realizing that caring about whether options are mechanically strong is not the same as min-maxing. I'm perfectly happy to play a character of average power. The problem is that average is 'pick a recommended race', which means someone that has at least a +1 in their primary attribute.
God forbid, the stats represent having to overcome some difficulty in their chosen profession.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
If someone absolutely flat requires two extra points of Dex to roleplay an Elf from Elflandia who does elf things with her elf face and simply cannot possibly get into character properly or explore the culture and history of the Elves of Elflandia without those two points of Dexterity, something is deeply wrong and it has nothing to do with the game's rules.
Similarly, having a Dexterity score below 19 should not disqualify a player from roleplaying an Elf from Elflandia who does elf things with her elf face. Perhaps she suffered an injury, or as I mentioned before, she was born with some sort of physical impairment that affects her manual dexterity. Perhaps she's not from Elflandia at all but was raised by dwarves with no use for Dexterity; she was taught their ways but never felt she fit and decided to go out adventuring in the hopes of visiting Elflandia some day and connecting with her heritage all while dressed in dwarven heavy armor and unable to speak Elvish.
Why is that sort of story disallowed, hm? Would you tell a player suffering from palsy that they cannot play an elf because elves are just that naturally graceful and they're not permitted to have Dexterity scores below holyshitamazing? Again, I challenge anyone holding up this whole opinion of "nobody can ever have any possible justification for a character to not perfectly conform to their species' ideal stat array" to take that opinion to the combat wheelchair threads. See how far you go with it.
Well, the Elflandian could just make Dex their 8 and have a 10 and still be clumsy for an elf, but just fine by human standards. 🤷♂️ Heavy Armor would still make sense. Ne?
Heh. You've missed several rounds of conversation, Naivara. To summarize several pages of how that specific argument went for you:
Sposta, Kotath, BioWzard, et al: "Playing an unoptimized character is not a bad thing. These are stat bonuses, not penalties to things they don't have."
Yurei, Third_Sundering, ReshiIR, et al: "Playing an optimized character isn't a bad thing, either. More freedom to decide how your character's story shaped their life is a good thing, not a bad one."
The reason we’re against it is because this rule will allow everything to be an “edge case” as you put it. “And when everyone is special, no one is.” Stop tryina Syndrome my Der&Der!! 😖
Wasn't attempting to be rude, simply to catch you up on the conversation. The people who're against this rule are primarily against it because they feel optimization is actively harmful to a D&D game, they want to choke off the min-maxers' attempts at min-maxing, and don't want to dilute species differentiation by allowing the rule. Most of the people who're for it are seeing it as a method of improving edge-case character customization or creating stories that were never officially supported before, and many of us additionally feel that playing an optimized character is not actually bad or a problem.
Horse poopy. Not getting bonuses to primary stats does not mean it “wasn’t supported.” Your whole “if yer not first, yer last” record is starting to get scratchy after so many plays.
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats and Asis should put me at 20...that 25AC and cloak of displacement is gonna make for a fun character.... I'm gonna have to put up with a somewhat weak character at the start but at level 20... I'll be like... U get the picture
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Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats and Asis should put me at 20...that 25AC and cloak of displacement is gonna make for a fun character.... I'm gonna have to put up with a somewhat weak character at the start but at level 20... I'll be like... U get the picture
First, for the people who are saying that they don't want species choice to be cosmetic, I agree with you. I wish that 5e had more customization in it's character creation process, and making species wholly cosmetic I wouldn't really enjoy. However, a Backgrounds are currently almost cosmetic, and yet they are very popular and new ones get released in almost every book. And even if ability score increases are disassociated from species, the would still get racial traits. Drow would still get sunlight sensitivity and darkvision, Triton would still have water breathing, Aarockra would still fly. I also think that some abilities, like stonecunning and weapon training, are better suited to background than species. (As well as languages.)
Secondly, I don't think that these rules will help minmaxers that much. If someone wants to make a High-elf bard, like Naivara said, and they only cared about minmaxing, then they wouldn't make a high elf bard. They would be better off taking Half-elf. With the exceptions of some species (namely Yuan-ti and Aarockra), there are already species that provide good bonuses for each class.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats...
Yeah, rolling stats makes racial ASIs less relevant. It's just also pretty useless for evaluating balance because how well you roll matters more than race ever will.
First, for the people who are saying that they don't want species choice to be cosmetic, I agree with you. I wish that 5e had more customization in it's character creation process, and making species wholly cosmetic I wouldn't really enjoy. However, a Backgrounds are currently almost cosmetic, and yet they are very popular and new ones get released in almost every book. And even if ability score increases are disassociated from species, the would still get racial traits. Drow would still get sunlight sensitivity and darkvision, Triton would still have water breathing, Aarockra would still fly. I also think that some abilities, like stonecunning and weapon training, are better suited to background than species. (As well as languages.)
Secondly, I don't think that these rules will help minmaxers that much. If someone wants to make a High-elf bard, like Naivara said, and they only cared about minmaxing, then they wouldn't make a high elf bard. They would be better off taking Half-elf. With the exceptions of some species (namely Yuan-ti and Aarockra), there are already species that provide good bonuses for each class.
So.... all the proficiencies and equipment you get from backgrounds is cosmetic? Not to mention the actual feature you get?
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats...
Yeah, rolling stats makes racial ASIs less relevant. It's just also pretty useless for evaluating balance because how well you roll matters more than race ever will.
I roll stats because it gives me a wider range... i may get an 18, i've had scores as low as 9 (i never reroll ones) it gives me more to work with.
First, for the people who are saying that they don't want species choice to be cosmetic, I agree with you. I wish that 5e had more customization in it's character creation process, and making species wholly cosmetic I wouldn't really enjoy. However, a Backgrounds are currently almost cosmetic, and yet they are very popular and new ones get released in almost every book. And even if ability score increases are disassociated from species, the would still get racial traits. Drow would still get sunlight sensitivity and darkvision, Triton would still have water breathing, Aarockra would still fly. I also think that some abilities, like stonecunning and weapon training, are better suited to background than species. (As well as languages.)
Secondly, I don't think that these rules will help minmaxers that much. If someone wants to make a High-elf bard, like Naivara said, and they only cared about minmaxing, then they wouldn't make a high elf bard. They would be better off taking Half-elf. With the exceptions of some species (namely Yuan-ti and Aarockra), there are already species that provide good bonuses for each class.
So.... all the proficiencies and equipment you get from backgrounds is cosmetic? Not to mention the actual feature you get?
Mostly cosmetic, yes. You get maybe two proficiencies, and a ribbon background feature. Not entirely cosmetic, but when's the last time you heard a min-maxer talk about the background their character took?
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats...
Yeah, rolling stats makes racial ASIs less relevant. It's just also pretty useless for evaluating balance because how well you roll matters more than race ever will.
I roll stats because it gives me a wider range... i may get an 18, i've had scores as low as 9 (i never reroll ones) it gives me more to work with.
I love having one score as low as 6. Never happens though. 😒 (Perception) and Damage rolls I can roll 1s for days though....
I actually quite like the idea of playing that particular monk, or something in that vein. I enjoy the idea of a character at war with their own nature, which is why I wouldn't replace all, or even most, of the half-orc's native abilities. Menacing is an excellent lever for a character to pull - when he lets his mask slip and shows the fury he's spent his entire life trying to cage he's terrifying, but every time he does it he ends up with disturbing dreams, nightmares, and general disquiet. He has to recenter himself, spend time meditating and reasserting control, to regain his inner balance. Same with Savage Attacks - every now and then his control cracks and he strikes with brutal force, dealing significantly more damage than he intended. It's why he's an Open Hand monk - the character doesn't trust himself with weapons and actively refuses to use anything but his bare fists, for fear of his control slipping at exactly the wrong moment.
I've actually created something like that! his name is bastion de riven, hes a 9th level character, with 3 levels of open hand monk, 3 levels of beast barbarian, and three levels of lycan blood hunter.
I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats...
Yeah, rolling stats makes racial ASIs less relevant. It's just also pretty useless for evaluating balance because how well you roll matters more than race ever will.
I roll stats because it gives me a wider range... i may get an 18, i've had scores as low as 9 (i never reroll ones) it gives me more to work with.
I love having one score as low as 6. Never happens though. 😒 (Perception) and Damage rolls I can roll 1s for days though....
XD So true
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Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
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@Yurei no problem, sorry I misinterpreted you. I guess I just don't see why the min-maxers can't just go on playing fantasy classics like high elf wizards, and why the story gamers need that little +1 to intelligence for their dwarf wizard. I enjoy both min-maxing and roleplaying, but I don't mind having to choose (usually the latter).
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
What podcast does Keith Baker do? I would like to listen this podcast and asap.
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D&D Beyond FoundersKeith co-hosts podcasts about Eberron that are found here:
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
The only thing that we know atm is about the stat bonus. Everything else here is all conjecture. They might be keeping everything and have a few things that can be changed around.
The problem will come in when you start seeing things like dwarf wizard become the default race, because they get free armor proficiency.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I think the problem with understanding should start with realizing that caring about whether options are mechanically strong is not the same as min-maxing. I'm perfectly happy to play a character of average power. The problem is that average is 'pick a recommended race', which means someone that has at least a +1 in their primary attribute.
God forbid, the stats represent having to overcome some difficulty in their chosen profession.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Thank you. I added it to my podcasts. I love to listen to more D&D podcasts/campaigns. Hopefully I can be on one myself someday.
Well, the Elflandian could just make Dex their 8 and have a 10 and still be clumsy for an elf, but just fine by human standards. 🤷♂️ Heavy Armor would still make sense. Ne?
The reason we’re against it is because this rule will allow everything to be an “edge case” as you put it. “And when everyone is special, no one is.” Stop tryina Syndrome my Der&Der!! 😖
Horse poopy. Not getting bonuses to primary stats does not mean it “wasn’t supported.” Your whole “if yer not first, yer last” record is starting to get scratchy after so many plays.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Hardcovers, DDB & You
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I'm actually gonna try a dwarf wizards now.. i.ma roll stats and Asis should put me at 20...that 25AC and cloak of displacement is gonna make for a fun character.... I'm gonna have to put up with a somewhat weak character at the start but at level 20... I'll be like... U get the picture
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
May I recommend Mark of Warding. 😉
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I'm thinking school of abjuration
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
I have two arguments.
First, for the people who are saying that they don't want species choice to be cosmetic, I agree with you. I wish that 5e had more customization in it's character creation process, and making species wholly cosmetic I wouldn't really enjoy. However, a Backgrounds are currently almost cosmetic, and yet they are very popular and new ones get released in almost every book. And even if ability score increases are disassociated from species, the would still get racial traits. Drow would still get sunlight sensitivity and darkvision, Triton would still have water breathing, Aarockra would still fly. I also think that some abilities, like stonecunning and weapon training, are better suited to background than species. (As well as languages.)
Secondly, I don't think that these rules will help minmaxers that much. If someone wants to make a High-elf bard, like Naivara said, and they only cared about minmaxing, then they wouldn't make a high elf bard. They would be better off taking Half-elf. With the exceptions of some species (namely Yuan-ti and Aarockra), there are already species that provide good bonuses for each class.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
Yeah, rolling stats makes racial ASIs less relevant. It's just also pretty useless for evaluating balance because how well you roll matters more than race ever will.
So.... all the proficiencies and equipment you get from backgrounds is cosmetic? Not to mention the actual feature you get?
I roll stats because it gives me a wider range... i may get an 18, i've had scores as low as 9 (i never reroll ones) it gives me more to work with.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Mostly cosmetic, yes. You get maybe two proficiencies, and a ribbon background feature. Not entirely cosmetic, but when's the last time you heard a min-maxer talk about the background their character took?
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I love having one score as low as 6. Never happens though. 😒 (Perception) and Damage rolls I can roll 1s for days though....
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I've actually created something like that! his name is bastion de riven, hes a 9th level character, with 3 levels of open hand monk, 3 levels of beast barbarian, and three levels of lycan blood hunter.
here's his character page: https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/DangerousDice/characters/33667793
XD So true
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine