I roll stats because it gives me a wider range... i may get an 18, i've had scores as low as 9 (i never reroll ones) it gives me more to work with.
Hm.. if you've never rolled less than 9 you must be using variant die rolling, on 4 keep 3 scores less than 9 are 6x as common as scores of 18 (18s and 6s are about the same frequency). In any case, my basic point was that if you roll stats, you already tolerate power variations much larger than are associated with racial ASIs so it's not too surprising a +1 doesn't seem like a big deal.
Race is already a cosmetic choice! ASI and racial features are much for muchness in the grand scheme of things, they also mostly pale in comparison to class features and once magic items, feats and play-styles emerge fall to the background pretty quick.
like your side has pointed out several times ASI is just a starting position you can assign your dump stat to your +2 for RP reasons. So ASI is not a factor.
your position is obsessed with this playing into the hand of min maxxers, but everything plays into the hand of a min maxxer, that is literally there MO, the point you are missing is
This is not for Min Maxxers
Quick question: put your hand up if you have ever played in a campaign where a PC has played variant human because for RP reasons they needed a feat, they might of really wanted to play a loxodon or an elf or a kobold but that feat is key to an RP so they played variant human.
now some galaxy brains might be thinking “if it’s that key I can just give them the feat as DM” sure but as your point is literally arguing against making customising starting traits and stats easier for players I don’t think your pure rules vision for D&D character creation is going to allow that.
Another quick question: raise your hand if you have played in or DM’d a campaign with a homebrew anything
not to call you out specifically I_Love_Tarrasques but I noticed in earlier posts you had a footer that literally said “I love Homebrew”
well if you are home brewing anything in your game you are already potentially throwing out the D&D lore that you have spent 30+ pages saying gets thrown out because of of TCoE
So this new content, it’s not for the people that don’t want their D&D to change, it’s not for Min Maxxers and it’s not for the player with 100’s of homebrew items on D&D beyond including classes, race & backgrounds.
So to call out another footer Biowizard “I have been playing since 1982” you have probably forgotten more about about RPG’s than I know. But one of the things you have forgotten is opening a book, being disappointed by something, and the feeling of not having the skills or knowledge to homebrew or RP your way out.
That is who this book is for, the player whose enjoyment or ability to interact is dashed at the first hurdle, because they are being told that a race they want to play (and may even feel is an allegory for their own experiences) is dumb, or evil, or crooked, or uncreative etc because somebody 10,20,50,66 years ago decided that’s what that race should be.
so what is it your a fighting against? That those people shouldn’t feel more included in your hobby?
tldr: min max players will do whatever regardless, you won’t change your game regardless and homebrewers will keep homebrewing. This book is for those that want to see exclusionary hurdles removed from D&D
not to call you out specifically I_Love_Tarrasques but I noticed in earlier posts you had a footer that literally said “I love Homebrew”
well if you are home brewing anything in your game you are already potentially throwing out the D&D lore that you have spent 30+ pages saying gets thrown out because of of TCoE
I do have a soft spot for homebrew... however, that's just because i like channeling my creative side into homebrew campaigns, i reskin monsters, create magical items, easter eggs, OP villains to TPK the group if needed, silly subclasses like Axe Murderer Fighter, or a Circle of Skulls Necromancy Druid, and ridiculous races like a half-warforged cyborg, Invisible Stalker, and Dire Human...
for what it's worth most of my homebrew is a joke, such as a Ham Sandwich, and Warrior Bovines...
when it comes to actual characters and games with other DMs, i don't fudge the rules, the homebrew is just for fun.
not to call you out specifically I_Love_Tarrasques but I noticed in earlier posts you had a footer that literally said “I love Homebrew”
well if you are home brewing anything in your game you are already potentially throwing out the D&D lore that you have spent 30+ pages saying gets thrown out because of of TCoE
I do have a soft spot for homebrew... however, that's just because i like channeling my creative side into homebrew campaigns, i reskin monsters, create magical items, easter eggs, OP villains to TPK the group if needed, silly subclasses like Axe Murderer Fighter, or a Circle of Skulls Necromancy Druid, and ridiculous races like a half-warforged cyborg, Invisible Stalker, and Dire Human...
for what it's worth most of my homebrew is a joke, such as a Ham Sandwich, and Warrior Bovines...
when it comes to actual characters and games with other DMs, i don't fudge the rules, the homebrew is just for fun.
Your first paragraph sounds like a far more fun, creative inclusionary campaign than the second. If only WotC released a sourcebook that made it easier for DM’s & players to create such a campaign.
not to call you out specifically I_Love_Tarrasques but I noticed in earlier posts you had a footer that literally said “I love Homebrew”
well if you are home brewing anything in your game you are already potentially throwing out the D&D lore that you have spent 30+ pages saying gets thrown out because of of TCoE
I do have a soft spot for homebrew... however, that's just because i like channeling my creative side into homebrew campaigns, i reskin monsters, create magical items, easter eggs, OP villains to TPK the group if needed, silly subclasses like Axe Murderer Fighter, or a Circle of Skulls Necromancy Druid, and ridiculous races like a half-warforged cyborg, Invisible Stalker, and Dire Human...
for what it's worth most of my homebrew is a joke, such as a Ham Sandwich, and Warrior Bovines...
when it comes to actual characters and games with other DMs, i don't fudge the rules, the homebrew is just for fun.
thanks for the warrior bovine. It was......Beautiful.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
That is who this book is for, the player whose enjoyment or ability to interact is dashed at the first hurdle, because they are being told that a race they want to play (and may even feel is an allegory for their own experiences) is dumb, or evil, or crooked, or uncreative etc because somebody 10,20,50,66 years ago decided that’s what that race should be.
so what is it your a fighting against? That those people shouldn’t feel more included in your hobby?
tldr: min max players will do whatever regardless, you won’t change your game regardless and homebrewers will keep homebrewing. This book is for those that want to see exclusionary hurdles removed from D&D
Horse poopy. If someone wants to play a race/class combo that just happens to not have an optimized Ability Score Bonus they are not “excluded” and nobody is saying that it’s “dumb, evil, crooked, or uncreative.” They just don’t get a bonus to that one thing, they get a bonus to something else instead.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
That is who this book is for, the player whose enjoyment or ability to interact is dashed at the first hurdle, because they are being told that a race they want to play (and may even feel is an allegory for their own experiences) is dumb, or evil, or crooked, or uncreative etc because somebody 10,20,50,66 years ago decided that’s what that race should be.
so what is it your a fighting against? That those people shouldn’t feel more included in your hobby?
tldr: min max players will do whatever regardless, you won’t change your game regardless and homebrewers will keep homebrewing. This book is for those that want to see exclusionary hurdles removed from D&D
Horse poopy. If someone wants to play a race/class combo that just happens to not have an optimized Ability Score Bonus they are not “excluded” and nobody is saying that it’s “dumb, evil, crooked, or uncreative.” They just don’t get a bonus to that one thing, they get a bonus to something else instead.
Not getting a bonus =/= being excluded.
Have you even read the race descriptions?
the first dragonborn had scales of vibrant hues matching the colors of their dragon kin, but generations of interbreeding have created a more uniform appearance
With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races.
Whether united under the leadership of a mighty warlock or having fought to a standstill after years of conflict, orc and human tribes sometimes form alliances, joining forces into a larger horde to the terror of civilized lands nearby. When these alliances are sealed by marriages, half-orcs are born. Some half-orcs rise to become proud chiefs of orc tribes, their human blood giving them an edge over their full-blooded orc rivals. Some venture into the world to prove their worth among humans and other more civilized races.
Half-orcs are not evil by nature, but evil does lurk within them, whether they embrace it or rebel against it.
Whatever drives them, humans are the innovators, the achievers, and the pioneers of the worlds.
Their appearance and their nature are not their fault but the result of an ancient sin, for which they and their children and their children’s children will always be held accountable.
Cunning in battle and cruel in victory, goblins are fawning and servile in defeat
These trappings of civil society do little to conceal an underlying brutality that hobgoblins practice on each other and perfect upon other races.
That is what people find exclusionary, it’s fine if you don’t and you are free to not use the new optional rules. I for one think it’s the right move for WotC and if anything long overdue.
Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
Poppycock.
First of all, no party needs a tank, this isn’t WoW. You could make an entire party full of Rogues, Monks, Bards, and Sorcerers and be absolutely fine.
Second, your whole party won’t die because you play a Gnome Barbarian. If your party dies it’s because they didn’t plan their fight considering the party composition. If you go into the fight using the same strategies as if you had a tank, then yeah, might get gat. But if you adjust strategies then it isn’t a problem.
Third, why can’t a Gnome be a solid tank? Because they don’t start with a little extra Str?!? So what?!? That doesn’t mean that they can’t do the job, it just means their player has to work a little harder and play a little smarter.
Please stop claiming that not getting a “b o n u s” is the same as being handicapped, it’s not. Dragonborn, Goliath, Orc, Half-Orc, and Mountain Dwarf are not the only viable Barbarian races. Any race can make a capable, fun Barbarian.
That is who this book is for, the player whose enjoyment or ability to interact is dashed at the first hurdle, because they are being told that a race they want to play (and may even feel is an allegory for their own experiences) is dumb, or evil, or crooked, or uncreative etc because somebody 10,20,50,66 years ago decided that’s what that race should be.
so what is it your a fighting against? That those people shouldn’t feel more included in your hobby?
tldr: min max players will do whatever regardless, you won’t change your game regardless and homebrewers will keep homebrewing. This book is for those that want to see exclusionary hurdles removed from D&D
Horse poopy. If someone wants to play a race/class combo that just happens to not have an optimized Ability Score Bonus they are not “excluded” and nobody is saying that it’s “dumb, evil, crooked, or uncreative.” They just don’t get a bonus to that one thing, they get a bonus to something else instead.
Not getting a bonus =/= being excluded.
Have you even read the race descriptions?
the first dragonborn had scales of vibrant hues matching the colors of their dragon kin, but generations of interbreeding have created a more uniform appearance
With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races.
Whether united under the leadership of a mighty warlock or having fought to a standstill after years of conflict, orc and human tribes sometimes form alliances, joining forces into a larger horde to the terror of civilized lands nearby. When these alliances are sealed by marriages, half-orcs are born. Some half-orcs rise to become proud chiefs of orc tribes, their human blood giving them an edge over their full-blooded orc rivals. Some venture into the world to prove their worth among humans and other more civilized races.
Half-orcs are not evil by nature, but evil does lurk within them, whether they embrace it or rebel against it.
Whatever drives them, humans are the innovators, the achievers, and the pioneers of the worlds.
Their appearance and their nature are not their fault but the result of an ancient sin, for which they and their children and their children’s children will always be held accountable.
Cunning in battle and cruel in victory, goblins are fawning and servile in defeat
These trappings of civil society do little to conceal an underlying brutality that hobgoblins practice on each other and perfect upon other races.
That is what people find exclusionary, it’s fine if you don’t and you are free to not use the new optional rules. I for one think it’s the right move for WotC and if anything long overdue.
What is exclusionary about Elves being more gracefully by comparison to humans? Prey tell.
As to the Dragonborn thing, it should happen to people. If people just kept on ******* until we’re all the same color the world would be a better place because then we could finally put racism to rest once and for all. So what’s the problem?
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
I included the elves and humans as contrast not as examples of exclusionary language. How one race is described as graceful and innovative and the other as evil and vicious.
I am not even going to address your second comment, honestly I think you should edit your post and delete it.
You are dragging the conversation off topic, you disagreed that TCOE was a fix and that people could feel excluded over race descriptions, I provided you with examples of exclusionary language around races.
I have no intention of engaging with and am not going to discuss your views on how to fix racism. It is not relevant to the thread. Please stop trying to start that conversation.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
You are dragging the conversation off topic, you disagreed that TCOE was a fix and that people could feel excluded over race descriptions, I provided you with examples of exclusionary language around races.
I have no intention of engaging with and am not going to discuss your views on how to fix racism. It is not relevant to the thread. Please stop trying to start that conversation.
And moving an Orc’s +2 Str to some other stat is supposed to change those descriptions how?!? You wanna change the descriptions, that’s one thing. Why should Orcs not still get their +2 Str??? What does the one have to do with the other?
You are dragging the conversation off topic, you disagreed that TCOE was a fix and that people could feel excluded over race descriptions, I provided you with examples of exclusionary language around races.
I have no intention of engaging with and am not going to discuss your views on how to fix racism. It is not relevant to the thread. Please stop trying to start that conversation.
And moving an Orc’s +2 Str to some other stat is supposed to change those descriptions how?!? You wanna change the descriptions, that’s one thing. Why should Orcs not still get their +2 Str??? What does the one have to do with the other?
Because it’s not about the stat it’s about what it’s saying to the players that do find it exclusionary “you are not limited to be just this” end of.
this is something you clearly refuse to acknowledge is a big deal to some people on the grounds that it’s not to you. So again as I asked 2 pages ago, what are you fighting for here? What is a win?
Right now there is a completely optional methodology being added that will have no effect on your game but will be a jump forward for inclusion for many. You lose nothing, they gain something. So what are you fighting for? That they shouldn’t get that?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Hm.. if you've never rolled less than 9 you must be using variant die rolling, on 4 keep 3 scores less than 9 are 6x as common as scores of 18 (18s and 6s are about the same frequency). In any case, my basic point was that if you roll stats, you already tolerate power variations much larger than are associated with racial ASIs so it's not too surprising a +1 doesn't seem like a big deal.
it's standard Ability scores: 13 14 7 8 15 17 well there's a first for every time... imma keep this.
But when i roll with real dice... it ends up being something like 17 14 16 15 14 11 Ideky
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
“So race will be purely cosmetic”
Race is already a cosmetic choice! ASI and racial features are much for muchness in the grand scheme of things, they also mostly pale in comparison to class features and once magic items, feats and play-styles emerge fall to the background pretty quick.
like your side has pointed out several times ASI is just a starting position you can assign your dump stat to your +2 for RP reasons. So ASI is not a factor.
your position is obsessed with this playing into the hand of min maxxers, but everything plays into the hand of a min maxxer, that is literally there MO, the point you are missing is
This is not for Min Maxxers
Quick question: put your hand up if you have ever played in a campaign where a PC has played variant human because for RP reasons they needed a feat, they might of really wanted to play a loxodon or an elf or a kobold but that feat is key to an RP so they played variant human.
now some galaxy brains might be thinking “if it’s that key I can just give them the feat as DM” sure but as your point is literally arguing against making customising starting traits and stats easier for players I don’t think your pure rules vision for D&D character creation is going to allow that.
Another quick question: raise your hand if you have played in or DM’d a campaign with a homebrew anything
not to call you out specifically I_Love_Tarrasques but I noticed in earlier posts you had a footer that literally said “I love Homebrew”
well if you are home brewing anything in your game you are already potentially throwing out the D&D lore that you have spent 30+ pages saying gets thrown out because of of TCoE
So this new content, it’s not for the people that don’t want their D&D to change, it’s not for Min Maxxers and it’s not for the player with 100’s of homebrew items on D&D beyond including classes, race & backgrounds.
So to call out another footer Biowizard “I have been playing since 1982” you have probably forgotten more about about RPG’s than I know. But one of the things you have forgotten is opening a book, being disappointed by something, and the feeling of not having the skills or knowledge to homebrew or RP your way out.
That is who this book is for, the player whose enjoyment or ability to interact is dashed at the first hurdle, because they are being told that a race they want to play (and may even feel is an allegory for their own experiences) is dumb, or evil, or crooked, or uncreative etc because somebody 10,20,50,66 years ago decided that’s what that race should be.
so what is it your a fighting against? That those people shouldn’t feel more included in your hobby?
tldr: min max players will do whatever regardless, you won’t change your game regardless and homebrewers will keep homebrewing. This book is for those that want to see exclusionary hurdles removed from D&D
I do have a soft spot for homebrew... however, that's just because i like channeling my creative side into homebrew campaigns, i reskin monsters, create magical items, easter eggs, OP villains to TPK the group if needed, silly subclasses like Axe Murderer Fighter, or a Circle of Skulls Necromancy Druid, and ridiculous races like a half-warforged cyborg, Invisible Stalker, and Dire Human...
for what it's worth most of my homebrew is a joke, such as a Ham Sandwich, and Warrior Bovines...
when it comes to actual characters and games with other DMs, i don't fudge the rules, the homebrew is just for fun.
Cult of Sedge
Rangers are the best, and have always been the best
I love Homebrew
I hate paladins
Warrior Bovine
Your first paragraph sounds like a far more fun, creative inclusionary campaign than the second. If only WotC released a sourcebook that made it easier for DM’s & players to create such a campaign.
thanks for the warrior bovine. It was......Beautiful.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Horse poopy. If someone wants to play a race/class combo that just happens to not have an optimized Ability Score Bonus they are not “excluded” and nobody is saying that it’s “dumb, evil, crooked, or uncreative.” They just don’t get a bonus to that one thing, they get a bonus to something else instead.
Not getting a bonus =/= being excluded.
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Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Have you even read the race descriptions?
the first dragonborn had scales of vibrant hues matching the colors of their dragon kin, but generations of interbreeding have created a more uniform appearance
With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races.
Whether united under the leadership of a mighty warlock or having fought to a standstill after years of conflict, orc and human tribes sometimes form alliances, joining forces into a larger horde to the terror of civilized lands nearby. When these alliances are sealed by marriages, half-orcs are born. Some half-orcs rise to become proud chiefs of orc tribes, their human blood giving them an edge over their full-blooded orc rivals. Some venture into the world to prove their worth among humans and other more civilized races.
Half-orcs are not evil by nature, but evil does lurk within them, whether they embrace it or rebel against it.
Whatever drives them, humans are the innovators, the achievers, and the pioneers of the worlds.
Their appearance and their nature are not their fault but the result of an ancient sin, for which they and their children and their children’s children will always be held accountable.
Cunning in battle and cruel in victory, goblins are fawning and servile in defeat
These trappings of civil society do little to conceal an underlying brutality that hobgoblins practice on each other and perfect upon other races.
That is what people find exclusionary, it’s fine if you don’t and you are free to not use the new optional rules. I for one think it’s the right move for WotC and if anything long overdue.
Poppycock.
First of all, no party needs a tank, this isn’t WoW. You could make an entire party full of Rogues, Monks, Bards, and Sorcerers and be absolutely fine.
Second, your whole party won’t die because you play a Gnome Barbarian. If your party dies it’s because they didn’t plan their fight considering the party composition. If you go into the fight using the same strategies as if you had a tank, then yeah, might get gat. But if you adjust strategies then it isn’t a problem.
Third, why can’t a Gnome be a solid tank? Because they don’t start with a little extra Str?!? So what?!? That doesn’t mean that they can’t do the job, it just means their player has to work a little harder and play a little smarter.
Please stop claiming that not getting a “b o n u s” is the same as being handicapped, it’s not. Dragonborn, Goliath, Orc, Half-Orc, and Mountain Dwarf are not the only viable Barbarian races. Any race can make a capable, fun Barbarian.
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What is exclusionary about Elves being more gracefully by comparison to humans? Prey tell.
As to the Dragonborn thing, it should happen to people. If people just kept on ******* until we’re all the same color the world would be a better place because then we could finally put racism to rest once and for all. So what’s the problem?
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This may be relevant to the discussion.
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/08/dd-tashas-cauldron-secrets-revealed-new-race-stat-rules.html
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
I included the elves and humans as contrast not as examples of exclusionary language. How one race is described as graceful and innovative and the other as evil and vicious.
I am not even going to address your second comment, honestly I think you should edit your post and delete it.
Why? It’s an inevitability anyway. With access to global travel and given enough time it’s gonna happen one day. People like to make babies.
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You are dragging the conversation off topic, you disagreed that TCOE was a fix and that people could feel excluded over race descriptions, I provided you with examples of exclusionary language around races.
I have no intention of engaging with and am not going to discuss your views on how to fix racism. It is not relevant to the thread. Please stop trying to start that conversation.
they haven't caved. End of.
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
And moving an Orc’s +2 Str to some other stat is supposed to change those descriptions how?!? You wanna change the descriptions, that’s one thing. Why should Orcs not still get their +2 Str??? What does the one have to do with the other?
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Because it’s not about the stat it’s about what it’s saying to the players that do find it exclusionary “you are not limited to be just this” end of.
this is something you clearly refuse to acknowledge is a big deal to some people on the grounds that it’s not to you. So again as I asked 2 pages ago, what are you fighting for here? What is a win?
Right now there is a completely optional methodology being added that will have no effect on your game but will be a jump forward for inclusion for many. You lose nothing, they gain something. So what are you fighting for? That they shouldn’t get that?