Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Everybody all saying "There's nothing stopping you from playing that gnome barbarian. Drop your 15 in Stronk, and that gnome is heckin' beef for a gnome." Or "If for whatever silly reason you want to play a clumsy elf, nothing's stopping you. Drop your 8 into DX and be clumsy AF for an elf." So on and so forth. Everything is always qualified. You can be massively strong...for a halfling. You can be unbearably klutzy...for an elf. You can be unusually intelligent...for an orc.
None of these species can just be the thing. Halflings are not allowed to just be strong, no qualifier;they're only allowed to be strong "for a halfling" unless the player spends several IRL years playing out a campaign in which they get no option for taking cool, character-expanding feats because they want to be strong, not "strong...for a halfling." The orc is not allowed to be smart, it's allowed to be "smart...for an orc."
Y'all can't see where this might not sit right with people? This notion that any given [X] has exactly two things it's allowed to be Actually Good at, and otherwise it's only allowed to be "good...for an [X]"? Nobody can see where that might not land? Where it might have some uncomfortable parallels with real-world situations folks would prefer to not parallel?
And don't give me that tripe about the damned Commoner being "The Average" either and how "15 is exceptional, it's just not as exceptional". The average score for Standard Array is 12, not 10, and Standard Array is notoriously weak. Standard Array is specifically, intentionally designed to produce characters that have a great deal of trouble passing a DC 12 check or hitting an AC 12 foe if they're not very specialized for what they do. It sucks - I much prefer for characters to have a great deal of broad utility outside their core role and be capable of many different things, but Standard Array says nah. Standard Array says any DC much higher than 8 is supposed to choke the party unless they sic a dedicated specialist in whatever the trouble is on it, and then every adventure Wizards ever releases is chock full of 20+ DCs even at the lowest levels.
Is it really any wonder some people look at "strong...for a halfling" and think to themselves "but...that's not really strong at all?"
Now it seems that having more flavor in your races or one being more predisposed to being good a certain task is gone. Now it's either be a Dwarf with +2 and +2 to whatever stats you like or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 additional skills as they are better at literally everything than anyone else. Ill amend the D&D now standing for Dwarves and Dwarves to D&H for dwarves and half elves lol
Everybody all saying "There's nothing stopping you from playing that gnome barbarian. Drop your 15 in Stronk, and that gnome is heckin' beef for a gnome." Or "If for whatever silly reason you want to play a clumsy elf, nothing's stopping you. Drop your 8 into DX and be clumsy AF for an elf." So on and so forth. Everything is always qualified. You can be massively strong...for a halfling. You can be unbearably klutzy...for an elf. You can be unusually intelligent...for an orc.
None of these species can just be the thing. Halflings are not allowed to just be strong, no qualifier;they're only allowed to be strong "for a halfling" unless the player spends several IRL years playing out a campaign in which they get no option for taking cool, character-expanding feats because they want to be strong, not "strong...for a halfling." The orc is not allowed to be smart, it's allowed to be "smart...for an orc."
Y'all can't see where this might not sit right with people? This notion that any given [X] has exactly two things it's allowed to be Actually Good at, and otherwise it's only allowed to be "good...for an [X]"? Nobody can see where that might not land? Where it might have some uncomfortable parallels with real-world situations folks would prefer to not parallel?
And don't give me that tripe about the damned Commoner being "The Average" either and how "15 is exceptional, it's just not as exceptional". The average score for Standard Array is 12, not 10, and Standard Array is notoriously weak. Standard Array is specifically, intentionally designed to produce characters that have a great deal of trouble passing a DC 12 check or hitting an AC 12 foe if they're not very specialized for what they do. It sucks - I much prefer for characters to have a great deal of broad utility outside their core role and be capable of many different things, but Standard Array says nah. Standard Array says any DC much higher than 8 is supposed to choke the party unless they sic a dedicated specialist in whatever the trouble is on it, and then every adventure Wizards ever releases is chock full of 20+ DCs even at the lowest levels.
Is it really any wonder some people look at "strong...for a halfling" and think to themselves "but...that's not really strong at all?"
Halflings average around 3 feet tall, so yeah they're going to be strong for a halfling. Even if they’re strong for a half-orc. And species that aren’t human, shouldn’t be seen as allegories for humans. Not all species are designed the same
As for the tired “no one is making you use these rules”, that won’t necessarily be true. The argument is that as a DM I don’t have to use the rules. The problem is that as a player there are already so many play styles out there it gets harder to find a table that isn’t a mix of players that are just out there to yeet stuff and lewt stuff and sex stuff, it feels like just another way to treat D&D like a video game.
For the record, I am totally aware that WoTC is not going to read this thread and my posts and suddenly say “Oh my god! We were totally wrong about this the whole time! Abort! abort!” When the book comes out and I have no choice but to play alongside PCs or under DMs that don’t feel the way I do it’s not like I’m going to quit D&D. To me it’s introducing unneeded chaos and a lack of respect for the rules and lore, but I also realize that many others feel differently. But it’s still how I feel.
And moving an Orc’s +2 Str to some other stat is supposed to change those descriptions how?!? You wanna change the descriptions, that’s one thing. Why should Orcs not still get their +2 Str??? What does the one have to do with the other?
Because it’s not about the stat it’s about what it’s saying to the players that do find it exclusionary “you are not limited to be just this” end of.
this is something you clearly refuse to acknowledge is a big deal to some people on the grounds that it’s not to you. So again as I asked 2 pages ago, what are you fighting for here? What is a win?
Right now there is a completely optional methodology being added that will have no effect on your game but will be a jump forward for inclusion for many. You lose nothing, they gain something. So what are you fighting for? That they shouldn’t get that?
Being genetically predisposed to greatness in one aspect does not exclude one from being capable of greatness in another. For example example:
George Forman was arguably the greatest boxer who ever lived. Obviously the man was born with bonuses to Str & Con. One does not get to be the heavyweight champion of the world unless one is predisposed. He has made way more money as an inventor (Int) and salesperson (Cha) thanks to his kitchen gadget than he ever did as an athlete. We’re talking fat stack.
Being predisposed to phenomenal athleticism did not exclude him from capitalizing on his other abilities. If he had decided to limit himself to just being an athlete, he would have been less successful in life, business, and finance. He did not.
So you ask me what a “win” is for me? A “win” for me in this would be if at least one person who ever reads this his conversation from now until the end of time concludes for themselves that they are capable of doing something they want to do, and should pursue it if they wish to, even if they are naturally predisposed to be good at something different.
A win for me is if one person in all of creation reads this and decides that it’s okay that the weakest Orc (8+2=10) to be at least as strong as an average human, the clumsiest Elf (8+2=10) is at least as graceful as an average human, and the least intelligent Gnome (8+2=10) is at least as smart as an average human, and that’s okay. And that it’s also okay that the smartest Orc (15+0=15) can start out life smarter than an average Gnome (10+2=12), but not as smart as the smartest Gnome (15+2=17), but that through work, they can all end up equal as the smartest mortals in the world (20).
A win for me is for any one person who ever might read this to realize that just because the person next to them might be naturally better at something, doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t do it too, and possibly even end up better at it than that other person if they want it bad enough. That through effort and dedication, one can overcome the challenges in life. That people shouldn’t feel obliged to play into their “strengths” just because they have them if it doesn’t make them happy.
For my whole life, D&D has been a shining example of that concept. I have watched people learn and grow through those experiences in D&D for almost 30 years. And now I am watching that example getting flushed down the toilet to cater to people who feel entitled to getting exactly what they want all the time. Horse poopy.
Is that a good enough reason for me to have an opinion to justify for you? If not, too bad.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
Also, I see you avoided the meat of my comment, where I laid out the logical end game for this disaster, but you avoided commenting on it, because you know that is indeed the endgame, but you keep going on that "no no, this is the end of it".
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
Also, I see you avoided the meat of my comment, where I laid out the logical end game for this disaster, but you avoided commenting on it, because you know that is indeed the endgame, but you keep going on that "no no, this is the end of it".
Please post at least one piece of evidence that makes you believe that this is the endgame for this rules set. So far it only appears that ability scores will be changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
Also, I see you avoided the meat of my comment, where I laid out the logical end game for this disaster, but you avoided commenting on it, because you know that is indeed the endgame, but you keep going on that "no no, this is the end of it".
Please post at least one piece of evidence that makes you believe that this is the endgame for this rules set. So far it only appears that ability scores will be changed.
You use the words "so far", which is exactly my point.
There's no reason to address that concern, Vince. Because it's blatant fearmongering that has no basis in reality, considering you've not seen the rule in question and considering the fact that Wizards is absolutely aware of the angry kickback over this rule. Whether it's out of honest distress and concern for the history and pedigree of the game for reasons Stormknight has informed us not to talk about, Wizards knows a significant chunk of the vocal userbase doesn't like the rule. The notion that we'll be seeing rules for turning everything in the game into Simic hybrids in a few months because Wizards is reminding DMs that they can unclench a little is ridiculous. In no small part because Simic hybrids already exist, and are an absolute laughingstock of a species that absolutely nobody who didn't come here from Friday Night Magic likes, uses, or permits in their games.
Moving three points around - or more likely one or two points around - does not Destroy Species As We Know It. Please stop crying wolf already.
@Sposta: I've not yet managed to play in - or run - a campaign that lasted past eighth level. A lot of people are accusing me of being a self-entitled little shit who wants everything handed to me right myeow and not being willing to put in the Time, Dedication, and Hard Work required to expand past a species' baked-in limitations to reach the splendid heights of True Competence. Maybe that's true...because my games and my characters have all FREAKING DIED before the point at which Time, Dedication, and Hard Work would actually pay off and function. I am hardly alone in this - time and time again, people have shown that numbers indicate the vast majority of campaigns start at level 1 and end before level 7. For a great many players, Tier 3 play is a myth they only ever get the faintest glimpse of through the fogs of Yet Another Level 1 Start, Tier 4 play is an outright filthy lie from Wizards, and even Tier 2 is something they only occasionally get to experience the first tantalizing tastes of.
Much as we might like to, we don't have time for Hard Work to pay off. If I'm only going to live to level 6, get ONE ASI in my entire time playing the character, and then have to choke on the pain of watching that character disappear into the void? That character is going to be good at her job the whole damn time she's briefly alive to do it.
The fact that you think people wanting to move away from tired tropes that route themselves in problematic depictions is “throwing D&D down the toilet” and that those that would like the ability to immerse themselves in a world of fantasy without having to see races they want to play bogged down with the same negative stereotypes they have had to overcome in life are “entitled” tells me all I need about where you stand.
i am truly sorry that you feel you are losing a game that has brought you joy for 30 years and that WotC have placed diversity, inclusion and acceptance ahead of what you see the game should be.
but you are not the champion you think you are, you are not empowering players, you are gatekeeping.
This book is a step in the right direction and I think it will help bring new voices, new play styles, new creativity and new stories to the game. I am excited for TCOE, I am excited for the options it will bring and for the flexibility it will offer new players.
Guys, the point is the rules are there. If you done want them dont use them. They are not changing anything massive. At the end of the day you can still play DnD. It wont be the biggest change, most likely you will be able to switch one point around. I have had the argument about playing a good race = optimizing. I was making a wacky half elf divine soul/ vengeance paladin, who used a rapier and thought he was a rogue blessed by the gods. You might have heard of him. His name is Inigo Montoya. Anyway, someone on this site said that using a half elf was optimization. I tried my best to explain that it was for fun, and that optimizing would have me take warcaster, and bumped str instead of dex, but that didn't matter. I was 'so totally optimizing'.
These changes are NOT for optimizers. They can be, but they dont have to be. I think everybody with a lot of experience has been in this situation (apart from me cause i play what i want and damn the concequences. JK). Your party needs a tank. You have squishy casters and a rogue....but you want to play a Gnome. Now you have thought about druid, but there is already a land one. You want to play a Gnome Barb, but you know if you do, your whole party will die. You sacrifice your play experience in the act of bettering the party's. Now this variant points rule has come around you can play whatever you want, without worrying about a TPK. It is great for you.
WOtC are not changing the cannon. They are making a rule for the 1% of races that have a moderately strong halfling. IMO, all it is going to do is benefit play experience. +1 to hit with 5e's bounded accuracy is a lot, but it is the same as having a half orc. Hitting more with your wacky character will just make your concept feel even cooler, and stick you on par with your buddies.
this is the point I NEED to make. WOtC WILL NEVER GIVE RACIAL TRAITS TO OTHER RACES. THAT WOULD COMPLETELY RUIN THE WHOLE POINT, AND THE PLAYER BASE WOULD DROP IMMENSELY. THEY HAVE BEEN THE LEADER IN TTRPGS FOR AS LONG AS I CAN REMEMBER, AND HAVE MADE CHANGES THAT EVERYBODY (yeah Joe we get it. You didn't like the crossbow expert errata) LIKED. CAN WE GIVE THEM THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT? THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY HAVE DONE FOR THE COMMUNITY, AND STOP FUSSING ABOUT A RULE THAT HASN'T EVEN COME OUT YET.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
How do you KNOW that species specific traits will NEVER be given to other species? If WOTC has caved to pressure and opened this door, how do you KNOW they won't go further? Right off the bat, I can see WOTC saying something like this: "Well, Elven Accuracy presently does not show Strength as an attribute that benefits from this Feat. But now that we have opened the door to super strong Elves, Strength should be added to that Feat. Further, we see no reason why this could not be a learned skill, so any player who in their background says they grew up with Elves would have potential access to Elven Accuracy"
And you KNOW that something like this is not far behind from WOTC : "We have examined all this inherent bias in the game, and we recognize that many features that are species specific should not be, because they are cultural traits. To that end, a player can say his Gnome char who is a Wizard can choose a background where the Gnome grew up with Mountain Dwarves, and to that end, gets Dwarven Armour Training, Dwarven Weapon Training, Tool Proficiency, and Stonecunning. Sorry for being so biased for 40 years."
they haven't caved. End of.
The article Dungeons and Dragons and Diversity says otherwise. If they hadn't caved then why would they need sensitivity readers to proofread their published books, both old and new?
They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
Also, I see you avoided the meat of my comment, where I laid out the logical end game for this disaster, but you avoided commenting on it, because you know that is indeed the endgame, but you keep going on that "no no, this is the end of it".
Please post at least one piece of evidence that makes you believe that this is the endgame for this rules set. So far it only appears that ability scores will be changed.
You use the words "so far", which is exactly my point.
And yet you you provided no basis just vague “anti-sjw” BS. Please provide evidence.
The fact that you think people wanting to move away from tired tropes that route themselves in problematic depictions is “throwing D&D down the toilet” and that those that would like the ability to immerse themselves in a world of fantasy without having to see races they want to play bogged down with the same negative stereotypes they have had to overcome in life are “entitled” tells me all I need about where you stand.
i am truly sorry that you feel you are losing a game that has brought you joy for 30 years and that WotC have placed diversity, inclusion and acceptance ahead of what you see the game should be.
but you are not the champion you think you are, you are not empowering players, you are gatekeeping.
This book is a step in the right direction and I think it will help bring new voices, new play styles, new creativity and new stories to the game. I am excited for TCOE, I am excited for the options it will bring and for the flexibility it will offer new players.
Same here. I can see nothing but possibilities in the new rules. I don’t know in what direction they take them but I am excited to see them(more excited for Icewind Dale atm though).
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Thanks for the article!
Also I forgot that mountain Dwarves gets a +2/+2. Being able to change those around would be interesting.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
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They should be diverse and it isn't because of pressure. It is because of an educated decision at the WOtC hq. Assuming it is just because of people pressuring them just makes you an @$$. They have done so much for the TTRPG community, give them a break. I think your Joe BTW. :D
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
Sigh.
Look.
Everybody all saying "There's nothing stopping you from playing that gnome barbarian. Drop your 15 in Stronk, and that gnome is heckin' beef for a gnome." Or "If for whatever silly reason you want to play a clumsy elf, nothing's stopping you. Drop your 8 into DX and be clumsy AF for an elf." So on and so forth. Everything is always qualified. You can be massively strong...for a halfling. You can be unbearably klutzy...for an elf. You can be unusually intelligent...for an orc.
None of these species can just be the thing. Halflings are not allowed to just be strong, no qualifier; they're only allowed to be strong "for a halfling" unless the player spends several IRL years playing out a campaign in which they get no option for taking cool, character-expanding feats because they want to be strong, not "strong...for a halfling." The orc is not allowed to be smart, it's allowed to be "smart...for an orc."
Y'all can't see where this might not sit right with people? This notion that any given [X] has exactly two things it's allowed to be Actually Good at, and otherwise it's only allowed to be "good...for an [X]"? Nobody can see where that might not land? Where it might have some uncomfortable parallels with real-world situations folks would prefer to not parallel?
And don't give me that tripe about the damned Commoner being "The Average" either and how "15 is exceptional, it's just not as exceptional". The average score for Standard Array is 12, not 10, and Standard Array is notoriously weak. Standard Array is specifically, intentionally designed to produce characters that have a great deal of trouble passing a DC 12 check or hitting an AC 12 foe if they're not very specialized for what they do. It sucks - I much prefer for characters to have a great deal of broad utility outside their core role and be capable of many different things, but Standard Array says nah. Standard Array says any DC much higher than 8 is supposed to choke the party unless they sic a dedicated specialist in whatever the trouble is on it, and then every adventure Wizards ever releases is chock full of 20+ DCs even at the lowest levels.
Is it really any wonder some people look at "strong...for a halfling" and think to themselves "but...that's not really strong at all?"
Please do not contact or message me.
Now it seems that having more flavor in your races or one being more predisposed to being good a certain task is gone. Now it's either be a Dwarf with +2 and +2 to whatever stats you like or a half elf with +2 +1 +1 and 2 additional skills as they are better at literally everything than anyone else. Ill amend the D&D now standing for Dwarves and Dwarves to D&H for dwarves and half elves lol
Halflings average around 3 feet tall, so yeah they're going to be strong for a halfling. Even if they’re strong for a half-orc. And species that aren’t human, shouldn’t be seen as allegories for humans. Not all species are designed the same
As for the tired “no one is making you use these rules”, that won’t necessarily be true. The argument is that as a DM I don’t have to use the rules. The problem is that as a player there are already so many play styles out there it gets harder to find a table that isn’t a mix of players that are just out there to yeet stuff and lewt stuff and sex stuff, it feels like just another way to treat D&D like a video game.
For the record, I am totally aware that WoTC is not going to read this thread and my posts and suddenly say “Oh my god! We were totally wrong about this the whole time! Abort! abort!” When the book comes out and I have no choice but to play alongside PCs or under DMs that don’t feel the way I do it’s not like I’m going to quit D&D. To me it’s introducing unneeded chaos and a lack of respect for the rules and lore, but I also realize that many others feel differently. But it’s still how I feel.
Being genetically predisposed to greatness in one aspect does not exclude one from being capable of greatness in another. For example example:
George Forman was arguably the greatest boxer who ever lived. Obviously the man was born with bonuses to Str & Con. One does not get to be the heavyweight champion of the world unless one is predisposed. He has made way more money as an inventor (Int) and salesperson (Cha) thanks to his kitchen gadget than he ever did as an athlete. We’re talking fat stack.
Being predisposed to phenomenal athleticism did not exclude him from capitalizing on his other abilities. If he had decided to limit himself to just being an athlete, he would have been less successful in life, business, and finance. He did not.
So you ask me what a “win” is for me? A “win” for me in this would be if at least one person who ever reads this his conversation from now until the end of time concludes for themselves that they are capable of doing something they want to do, and should pursue it if they wish to, even if they are naturally predisposed to be good at something different.
A win for me is if one person in all of creation reads this and decides that it’s okay that the weakest Orc (8+2=10) to be at least as strong as an average human, the clumsiest Elf (8+2=10) is at least as graceful as an average human, and the least intelligent Gnome (8+2=10) is at least as smart as an average human, and that’s okay. And that it’s also okay that the smartest Orc (15+0=15) can start out life smarter than an average Gnome (10+2=12), but not as smart as the smartest Gnome (15+2=17), but that through work, they can all end up equal as the smartest mortals in the world (20).
A win for me is for any one person who ever might read this to realize that just because the person next to them might be naturally better at something, doesn’t mean they can’t or shouldn’t do it too, and possibly even end up better at it than that other person if they want it bad enough. That through effort and dedication, one can overcome the challenges in life. That people shouldn’t feel obliged to play into their “strengths” just because they have them if it doesn’t make them happy.
For my whole life, D&D has been a shining example of that concept. I have watched people learn and grow through those experiences in D&D for almost 30 years. And now I am watching that example getting flushed down the toilet to cater to people who feel entitled to getting exactly what they want all the time. Horse poopy.
Is that a good enough reason for me to have an opinion to justify for you? If not, too bad.
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Also, I see you avoided the meat of my comment, where I laid out the logical end game for this disaster, but you avoided commenting on it, because you know that is indeed the endgame, but you keep going on that "no no, this is the end of it".
Please post at least one piece of evidence that makes you believe that this is the endgame for this rules set. So far it only appears that ability scores will be changed.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
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You use the words "so far", which is exactly my point.
There's no reason to address that concern, Vince. Because it's blatant fearmongering that has no basis in reality, considering you've not seen the rule in question and considering the fact that Wizards is absolutely aware of the angry kickback over this rule. Whether it's out of honest distress and concern for the history and pedigree of the game for reasons Stormknight has informed us not to talk about, Wizards knows a significant chunk of the vocal userbase doesn't like the rule. The notion that we'll be seeing rules for turning everything in the game into Simic hybrids in a few months because Wizards is reminding DMs that they can unclench a little is ridiculous. In no small part because Simic hybrids already exist, and are an absolute laughingstock of a species that absolutely nobody who didn't come here from Friday Night Magic likes, uses, or permits in their games.
Moving three points around - or more likely one or two points around - does not Destroy Species As We Know It. Please stop crying wolf already.
@Sposta: I've not yet managed to play in - or run - a campaign that lasted past eighth level. A lot of people are accusing me of being a self-entitled little shit who wants everything handed to me right myeow and not being willing to put in the Time, Dedication, and Hard Work required to expand past a species' baked-in limitations to reach the splendid heights of True Competence. Maybe that's true...because my games and my characters have all FREAKING DIED before the point at which Time, Dedication, and Hard Work would actually pay off and function. I am hardly alone in this - time and time again, people have shown that numbers indicate the vast majority of campaigns start at level 1 and end before level 7. For a great many players, Tier 3 play is a myth they only ever get the faintest glimpse of through the fogs of Yet Another Level 1 Start, Tier 4 play is an outright filthy lie from Wizards, and even Tier 2 is something they only occasionally get to experience the first tantalizing tastes of.
Much as we might like to, we don't have time for Hard Work to pay off. If I'm only going to live to level 6, get ONE ASI in my entire time playing the character, and then have to choke on the pain of watching that character disappear into the void? That character is going to be good at her job the whole damn time she's briefly alive to do it.
Please do not contact or message me.
The fact that you think people wanting to move away from tired tropes that route themselves in problematic depictions is “throwing D&D down the toilet” and that those that would like the ability to immerse themselves in a world of fantasy without having to see races they want to play bogged down with the same negative stereotypes they have had to overcome in life are “entitled” tells me all I need about where you stand.
i am truly sorry that you feel you are losing a game that has brought you joy for 30 years and that WotC have placed diversity, inclusion and acceptance ahead of what you see the game should be.
but you are not the champion you think you are, you are not empowering players, you are gatekeeping.
This book is a step in the right direction and I think it will help bring new voices, new play styles, new creativity and new stories to the game. I am excited for TCOE, I am excited for the options it will bring and for the flexibility it will offer new players.
And yet you you provided no basis just vague “anti-sjw” BS. Please provide evidence.
Same here. I can see nothing but possibilities in the new rules. I don’t know in what direction they take them but I am excited to see them(more excited for Icewind Dale atm though).
Hey everyone. This thread this is consistently and repeatedly deviating from its initial topic and into areas that violate site rules on conduct and content, including off-limit topics such as politics, as well as general respect to each other. As such, we will be locking this thread.
If you wish to express your excitement about upcoming books, we encourage you to do so, new books are awesome. But please respect the site rules and each other when doing so.
Thanks
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