player 1 is a bit of a min maxer but not really. player 2 does not run away, they just use unique creative things instead of just casting a spell or attacking, and somtimes it does not help the party and is just for fun
This situation sucks. The reality is that you have two players who's play styles do not mesh. I'm going to be the outlier here in a way, because I empathize with P1. Combat is my favorite part of the game and if P2 is doing things that interfere with that, I can see why P1 would be annoyed. I certainly would be. P2 is not /trying/ to be a jerk, but is likely successfully pulling off that fear. That's making P2 frustrated and after a few sessions, the frustration boils over and snarky comments come out. So, I get it.
That said, P1 is /never/ right in being mean to P2. It's not acceptable, and if she thinks her sessions are being ruined because of P2's shenanigans, she should probably just leave on her own. Being nasty to another player is never, ever acceptable even though I can see why I'd be frustrated in her position.
Because I have a low tolerance for BS, I would probably sit them both down AT THE SAME TIME and give them a fat piece of my mind. P1, I've told you to be nice to P2. if you do not stop being mean, you are gone. Period. P2. You're jacking up her sessions with your constant antics. If I am forced to kick her because YOU can't be a team player and let her have some fun too, and I have to kick her, then it's on you. You're going to be at fault, and I may decide to just cancel the campaign. I don't need this middle school drama at my table. Now, you both sit here and figure out what changes you each need to make moving forward because this is the last time we're going to have a discussion on this.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
One possibility you may want to consider, is to enforce a "three strikes, you're out" policy for all players, as a way to address player's behavior towards one another if these rules had not been established when your group first began. This can give a sense of fairness, even if player 1 doesn't see it as such, which as DM can give you strength when you it's time to address tough situations.
Something my group does, is that sometimes we just agree to get on the choo-choo. Sometimes it feels obvious what a module "expects" you to do. For the DM's sake, we'll do it.
We do it for each other as well. We had another encounter a few sessions back where some werewolves were causing a problem. We cleaned it out, and our party wizard for some reason just didn't want to kill the werewolves. Now, personally, my moral compass points to "werewolves are evil, they are going to keep killing people, so eliminating the threat permanently is the right course of action". The wizard however, was pretty adamant about not "murdering" the werewolves. While I thought it was wrong, in order to keep the peace, and let him have his fun, I simply let it go. We released the werewolves and our wizard was happy. It's not what I wanted in that situation, but I let the wizard have his day.
In this case, imo, P1 and P2 need to get to the same place that my group is. P1 needs to allow P2 to have some shenanigans without getting uppity and frustrated about it. P2 needs to let P1 have some bloody combat from time to time without trying to clever his way out of it and steal P1's fun away. Both sides need to give a bit since their playstyles don't seem to match. Toss your buddy a bone and quit being selfish to expect YOUR way EVERY encounter.
If you have to, shut P1 down when she starts to get snippy with P2. When she starts to get on P2, just say "Laura, do not make me pull this car over." That should be pretty universal for "you're acting like a child. Stop."
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
What things are P2 doing that P1 objects to, and what things are P1 saying that are so “mean” that P2 wants to leave?
P1 said that P2 is saying things that there character would not do, and the "mean" things are calling his character names, saying that his character does not contripute to the party during combat, and other rude comments.
Ok so is player 2 like running away always during combat, or is player 1 a minmaxer of sorts who wants players to be “playing optimally”. If player 2 is running away during combat, then I could see the frustration. If not, then player 1 is a problem. If player 1 is just a power gamer/minmaxer who wants people to “play optimally” and is bullying player 2 because of that then you should ask player 1 to get their act up or leave, and tell player 2 to stay and say that 1 may be kicked if continuing bad behavior. If player 2 is just running away during combat, talk to both players. Tell 1 to stop being mean then, and 2 to not run away if that is the situation.
I need more information about what is going on but that is my thoughts and what I think is going on based off of what you said.
player 1 is a bit of a min maxer but not really. player 2 does not run away, they just use unique creative things instead of just casting a spell or attacking, and somtimes it does not help the party and is just for fun
Honestly nothing is wrong with player 2 then. I’d say P1 is the problem. I agree with everyone on that you should try to cater to both play styles, but then if you can’t and P1 starts arguing, then you gotta deal with him/her. It seems like P1 likes combat a lot. Maybe have some encounters that are a little harder for P2 to cheese(despite there being nothing bad w that), so that P1 could have fun, although still allow P2 to play smartly and be clever. If more fighting breaks out, I’d say kick out P1 after one more final warning if she/he is causing a problem.
What things are P2 doing that P1 objects to, and what things are P1 saying that are so “mean” that P2 wants to leave?
P1 said that P2 is saying things that there character would not do, and the "mean" things are calling his character names, saying that his character does not contripute to the party during combat, and other rude comments.
Ok so is player 2 like running away always during combat, or is player 1 a minmaxer of sorts who wants players to be “playing optimally”. If player 2 is running away during combat, then I could see the frustration. If not, then player 1 is a problem. If player 1 is just a power gamer/minmaxer who wants people to “play optimally” and is bullying player 2 because of that then you should ask player 1 to get their act up or leave, and tell player 2 to stay and say that 1 may be kicked if continuing bad behavior. If player 2 is just running away during combat, talk to both players. Tell 1 to stop being mean then, and 2 to not run away if that is the situation.
I need more information about what is going on but that is my thoughts and what I think is going on based off of what you said.
player 1 is a bit of a min maxer but not really. player 2 does not run away, they just use unique creative things instead of just casting a spell or attacking, and somtimes it does not help the party and is just for fun
Honestly nothing is wrong with player 2 then. I’d say P1 is the problem. I agree with everyone on that you should try to cater to both play styles, but then if you can’t and P1 starts arguing, then you gotta deal with him/her. It seems like P1 likes combat a lot. Maybe have some encounters that are a little harder for P2 to cheese(despite there being nothing bad w that), so that P1 could have fun, although still allow P2 to play smartly and be clever. If more fighting breaks out, I’d say kick out P1 after one more final warning if she/he is causing a problem.
It really comes down to what 'just for fun' means. It could be 'smartly and clever' or it could be 'just being an idiot.' There is also the question of whether the character has any out of combat strengths that compensate.
So much this. I had a combat in one of my campaigns recently where I moved my divine sorc up to a door, I was running spirit guardians. The fighter, decided to run into the STONE wall and try to break it down. The door got opened and I got face wrecked while the fighter stood there. Of course, it was /my/ fault for being too far forward, because somehow I was supposed to know that the fighter wouldn't use the door, he'd be trying to break down the stone wall with his face.
So, so often, someone's funny is someone else eyerollingly stupid.
In the case of my campaign, the DM kept telling me to tell people in the group to stop being stupid. I kept saying it's not my job to tell people how to play their characters. I threatened to MC warlock to get darkness/devil's sight cheese running to protect myself and was promptly asked to not "ruin things for everyone else".
There's plenty that could be wrong with P2. Without sitting there and watching a session, I can't say. I'm happy to say that P1 shouldn't be mean, but I am not ready to say P2 hasn't earned it. I've seen an awful lot of stupidity from party members since I started playing D&D back in '86 or so.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
We had a friend back in high school (mid-late ‘90s) who only played Kender or Gnomes, and he played Gnomes like they were Kender. And he only played Wild Mages. Eventually every DM in the group banned Gnomes and Wild Magic. I still ban Wild Magic to this day because of it.
I won't play with wild magic users due to wild magic PTSD from the old days. Wild soul barbarian has joined the list of "nope, this isn't the group for me" classes. It's not my job to tell people what they can and can't play, but I just refuse to play with anything with random AOE effects, centered on self. If they want to houserule the effect so there there's no self AOE, I'm in. Play your character. No houserule on that, and I am out.
If I were to play in Krynn again, if a Kender shows up, I am out there too. No D&D is better than bad D&D.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Is the party getting near an TPK because P2 is doing something “fun” while the rest are fighting? Then it may be a problem. Is it happening every encounter that P2 isn’t directly participating? Then it may be a problem. Is it “in character” for P2 to do this? Or does P2 do this no matter the character they play? Then this might be a problem.
I’m fine with a player having fun and doing unique things during the adventure but if it is causing other characters to die or cause serious struggle with combat then it might need to be addressed.
We had a player just a short while back pretty much miss an entire encounter because they got distracted doing something else while the rest of the party fought. It made sense for that character to do what they were doing RP-wise, but it was our Barbarian and main damage dealer. But it worked out and everyone was good with it. If it happened all the time it might be a different story.
Is the party getting near an TPK because P2 is doing something “fun” while the rest are fighting? Then it may be a problem. Is it happening every encounter that P2 isn’t directly participating? Then it may be a problem. Is it “in character” for P2 to do this? Or does P2 do this no matter the character they play? Then this might be a problem.
I’m fine with a player having fun and doing unique things during the adventure but if it is causing other characters to die or cause serious struggle with combat then it might need to be addressed.
We had a player just a short while back pretty much miss an entire encounter because they got distracted doing something else while the rest of the party fought. It made sense for that character to do what they were doing RP-wise, but it was our Barbarian and main damage dealer. But it worked out and everyone was good with it. If it happened all the time it might be a different story.
If it's causing other players to not have fun then it's not OK then either.
P1's fun is not less important than P2's fun. I think that has to be said here. Without sitting in the room and seeing the whole story it's impossible to say more than P1 being mean to P2 is not acceptable. I strongly suspect that P2 is annoying the crap out of P1 though with their antics, and that's also not ok.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Is the party getting near an TPK because P2 is doing something “fun” while the rest are fighting? Then it may be a problem. Is it happening every encounter that P2 isn’t directly participating? Then it may be a problem. Is it “in character” for P2 to do this? Or does P2 do this no matter the character they play? Then this might be a problem.
I’m fine with a player having fun and doing unique things during the adventure but if it is causing other characters to die or cause serious struggle with combat then it might need to be addressed.
We had a player just a short while back pretty much miss an entire encounter because they got distracted doing something else while the rest of the party fought. It made sense for that character to do what they were doing RP-wise, but it was our Barbarian and main damage dealer. But it worked out and everyone was good with it. If it happened all the time it might be a different story.
If it's causing other players to not have fun then it's not OK then either.
P1's fun is not less important than P2's fun. I think that has to be said here. Without sitting in the room and seeing the whole story it's impossible to say more than P1 being mean to P2 is not acceptable. I strongly suspect that P2 is annoying the crap out of P1 though with their antics, and that's also not ok.
I wasn’t trying to suggest that P1’s fun was less important. Just that P2’s behavior could be as much of a problem as P1’s. I think most agree P1 should not be mean to anyone. But I also agree with you that if P2’s behavior is causing P1 not to have fun that it needs looking into.
In one of my earlier posts I said it seemed like a play style issue of them not meshing in a way that all sides have fun. And if they cannot work it out then it seems at least one player may need to leave.
@GunIunDerby I strongly suspect the problem is with both your players, not just P1, and that you might be perceiving P1 as “mean” because she’s a girl and she communicates differently than your guy friends. You need to sit them both down and sort this out without showing bias for either side.
@Crzyhawk I played a Marak kender rogue from Time of the Dragon once. She was crazy paranoid like all Marak, but she also had a very whimsical side to her just like any other kender.
I didn't mean to suggest that you were, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I mostly meant to emphasize that P1 has the right to have fun, even if she's acting churlish. I suspect, although I don't know for certain that P2's behavior is having a serious impact on P1's fun. That's not justification for P1's behavior, but it indicates that P2 may need a bit of correction to be a bit more of a team player as well.
I'd like to hear more details about exactly the kind of things that P1 is complaining about when she's busy being mean to P2. My experience is, players don't get nasty for no reason. They might not have a /good/ reason, but there's usually something going on. From what I can gather, there's something about the things that P2 is doing "unique, creative things" that don't necessarily help (or maybe even hinder) the party, but those things appear to have P1's screws twisted. I'd like to know more about what P2 is doing before I nail P1 to a cross for being nasty to P2.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I honestly kind of doubt that the OP is pointing the finger at P1 because she's a girl. I'm giving the OP the courtesy of believing what he says, if she's making mean comments to P2...they legitimately are mean comments. That said, I also suspect that P2 is doing things that's making P1 say nasty things. Just like guys, girls tend to say mean things when they get provoked, and girls generally don't just say mean things because they feel like being mean. If she's doing it, she's likely got a reason for doing it.
The question in my mind is what kind of behavior is P2 participating in that might be pushing P1's buttons.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I honestly kind of doubt that the OP is pointing the finger at P1 because she's a girl. I'm giving the OP the courtesy of believing what he says, if she's making mean comments to P2...they legitimately are mean comments. That said, I also suspect that P2 is doing things that's making P1 say nasty things. Just like guys, girls tend to say mean things when they get provoked, and girls generally don't just say mean things because they feel like being mean. If she's doing it, she's likely got a reason for doing it.
The question in my mind is what kind of behavior is P2 participating in that might be pushing P1's buttons.
Very true. Specifically talking about the last two sentences of your first paragraph.
they are around 20-30 years old
im a tad bit fruity
Are you sure neither of them has (or has had) a thing for the other? The way you described the situation I was imagining middle schoolers.
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You may find something useful in this video:
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Snap. not sure what middle school age is, but I was thinking early to mid teens.
Middle school (in USA) is 6th, 7th, and 8th grades, so ages 12-15ish.
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This situation sucks. The reality is that you have two players who's play styles do not mesh. I'm going to be the outlier here in a way, because I empathize with P1. Combat is my favorite part of the game and if P2 is doing things that interfere with that, I can see why P1 would be annoyed. I certainly would be. P2 is not /trying/ to be a jerk, but is likely successfully pulling off that fear. That's making P2 frustrated and after a few sessions, the frustration boils over and snarky comments come out. So, I get it.
That said, P1 is /never/ right in being mean to P2. It's not acceptable, and if she thinks her sessions are being ruined because of P2's shenanigans, she should probably just leave on her own. Being nasty to another player is never, ever acceptable even though I can see why I'd be frustrated in her position.
Because I have a low tolerance for BS, I would probably sit them both down AT THE SAME TIME and give them a fat piece of my mind. P1, I've told you to be nice to P2. if you do not stop being mean, you are gone. Period. P2. You're jacking up her sessions with your constant antics. If I am forced to kick her because YOU can't be a team player and let her have some fun too, and I have to kick her, then it's on you. You're going to be at fault, and I may decide to just cancel the campaign. I don't need this middle school drama at my table. Now, you both sit here and figure out what changes you each need to make moving forward because this is the last time we're going to have a discussion on this.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Oh, darn; this part is never fun.
One possibility you may want to consider, is to enforce a "three strikes, you're out" policy for all players, as a way to address player's behavior towards one another if these rules had not been established when your group first began. This can give a sense of fairness, even if player 1 doesn't see it as such, which as DM can give you strength when you it's time to address tough situations.
💙🤍~*Ravenclaw*~ 🔮
Something my group does, is that sometimes we just agree to get on the choo-choo. Sometimes it feels obvious what a module "expects" you to do. For the DM's sake, we'll do it.
We do it for each other as well. We had another encounter a few sessions back where some werewolves were causing a problem. We cleaned it out, and our party wizard for some reason just didn't want to kill the werewolves. Now, personally, my moral compass points to "werewolves are evil, they are going to keep killing people, so eliminating the threat permanently is the right course of action". The wizard however, was pretty adamant about not "murdering" the werewolves. While I thought it was wrong, in order to keep the peace, and let him have his fun, I simply let it go. We released the werewolves and our wizard was happy. It's not what I wanted in that situation, but I let the wizard have his day.
In this case, imo, P1 and P2 need to get to the same place that my group is. P1 needs to allow P2 to have some shenanigans without getting uppity and frustrated about it. P2 needs to let P1 have some bloody combat from time to time without trying to clever his way out of it and steal P1's fun away. Both sides need to give a bit since their playstyles don't seem to match. Toss your buddy a bone and quit being selfish to expect YOUR way EVERY encounter.
If you have to, shut P1 down when she starts to get snippy with P2. When she starts to get on P2, just say "Laura, do not make me pull this car over." That should be pretty universal for "you're acting like a child. Stop."
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Honestly nothing is wrong with player 2 then. I’d say P1 is the problem. I agree with everyone on that you should try to cater to both play styles, but then if you can’t and P1 starts arguing, then you gotta deal with him/her. It seems like P1 likes combat a lot. Maybe have some encounters that are a little harder for P2 to cheese(despite there being nothing bad w that), so that P1 could have fun, although still allow P2 to play smartly and be clever. If more fighting breaks out, I’d say kick out P1 after one more final warning if she/he is causing a problem.
So much this. I had a combat in one of my campaigns recently where I moved my divine sorc up to a door, I was running spirit guardians. The fighter, decided to run into the STONE wall and try to break it down. The door got opened and I got face wrecked while the fighter stood there. Of course, it was /my/ fault for being too far forward, because somehow I was supposed to know that the fighter wouldn't use the door, he'd be trying to break down the stone wall with his face.
So, so often, someone's funny is someone else eyerollingly stupid.
In the case of my campaign, the DM kept telling me to tell people in the group to stop being stupid. I kept saying it's not my job to tell people how to play their characters. I threatened to MC warlock to get darkness/devil's sight cheese running to protect myself and was promptly asked to not "ruin things for everyone else".
There's plenty that could be wrong with P2. Without sitting there and watching a session, I can't say. I'm happy to say that P1 shouldn't be mean, but I am not ready to say P2 hasn't earned it. I've seen an awful lot of stupidity from party members since I started playing D&D back in '86 or so.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
We had a friend back in high school (mid-late ‘90s) who only played Kender or Gnomes, and he played Gnomes like they were Kender. And he only played Wild Mages. Eventually every DM in the group banned Gnomes and Wild Magic. I still ban Wild Magic to this day because of it.
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I won't play with wild magic users due to wild magic PTSD from the old days. Wild soul barbarian has joined the list of "nope, this isn't the group for me" classes. It's not my job to tell people what they can and can't play, but I just refuse to play with anything with random AOE effects, centered on self. If they want to houserule the effect so there there's no self AOE, I'm in. Play your character. No houserule on that, and I am out.
If I were to play in Krynn again, if a Kender shows up, I am out there too. No D&D is better than bad D&D.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Is the party getting near an TPK because P2 is doing something “fun” while the rest are fighting? Then it may be a problem. Is it happening every encounter that P2 isn’t directly participating? Then it may be a problem. Is it “in character” for P2 to do this? Or does P2 do this no matter the character they play? Then this might be a problem.
I’m fine with a player having fun and doing unique things during the adventure but if it is causing other characters to die or cause serious struggle with combat then it might need to be addressed.
We had a player just a short while back pretty much miss an entire encounter because they got distracted doing something else while the rest of the party fought. It made sense for that character to do what they were doing RP-wise, but it was our Barbarian and main damage dealer. But it worked out and everyone was good with it. If it happened all the time it might be a different story.
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If it's causing other players to not have fun then it's not OK then either.
P1's fun is not less important than P2's fun. I think that has to be said here. Without sitting in the room and seeing the whole story it's impossible to say more than P1 being mean to P2 is not acceptable. I strongly suspect that P2 is annoying the crap out of P1 though with their antics, and that's also not ok.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I wasn’t trying to suggest that P1’s fun was less important. Just that P2’s behavior could be as much of a problem as P1’s.
I think most agree P1 should not be mean to anyone. But I also agree with you that if P2’s behavior is causing P1 not to have fun that it needs looking into.
In one of my earlier posts I said it seemed like a play style issue of them not meshing in a way that all sides have fun. And if they cannot work it out then it seems at least one player may need to leave.
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@GunIunDerby I strongly suspect the problem is with both your players, not just P1, and that you might be perceiving P1 as “mean” because she’s a girl and she communicates differently than your guy friends. You need to sit them both down and sort this out without showing bias for either side.
@Crzyhawk I played a Marak kender rogue from Time of the Dragon once. She was crazy paranoid like all Marak, but she also had a very whimsical side to her just like any other kender.
I didn't mean to suggest that you were, I'm sorry if you took it that way. I mostly meant to emphasize that P1 has the right to have fun, even if she's acting churlish. I suspect, although I don't know for certain that P2's behavior is having a serious impact on P1's fun. That's not justification for P1's behavior, but it indicates that P2 may need a bit of correction to be a bit more of a team player as well.
I'd like to hear more details about exactly the kind of things that P1 is complaining about when she's busy being mean to P2. My experience is, players don't get nasty for no reason. They might not have a /good/ reason, but there's usually something going on. From what I can gather, there's something about the things that P2 is doing "unique, creative things" that don't necessarily help (or maybe even hinder) the party, but those things appear to have P1's screws twisted. I'd like to know more about what P2 is doing before I nail P1 to a cross for being nasty to P2.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I honestly kind of doubt that the OP is pointing the finger at P1 because she's a girl. I'm giving the OP the courtesy of believing what he says, if she's making mean comments to P2...they legitimately are mean comments. That said, I also suspect that P2 is doing things that's making P1 say nasty things. Just like guys, girls tend to say mean things when they get provoked, and girls generally don't just say mean things because they feel like being mean. If she's doing it, she's likely got a reason for doing it.
The question in my mind is what kind of behavior is P2 participating in that might be pushing P1's buttons.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Very true. Specifically talking about the last two sentences of your first paragraph.