Wait, what?! The spells are the spells. How could they lose their name?
Just like nobody remembers who invented the spinning wheel. Someone invented it, but who remembers anymore?
Well, if 1,000 years ago someone named Westland created Westly’s Wishing Spell, and after 800 or 900 years everyone forgets who Westly was, or that he even existed. So now, folks just call it Wish. The people of the realms still remember Bigby, Rory, Tasha, Mordenkainen, Tenser, Leomund.... They’re more recent after all.
But apparently people in the realms have already started to forget that Leomund created a Tiny Hut and a Secret Chest, or that Mordenkainen was the first to summon a Faithful Hound, or that Tenser needed to cary a bunch of coins back from a dungeon and created a Floating Disk to do it, or that it was Tasha who invented a spell to inflict Hideous Laughter on someone. And they have completely forgotten that it used to be names Tasha’s Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.
We remember because it is meta knowledge. But the fictional people of the realms don’t have that meta knowledge.
A good additional reason is that wizards - those powerful ones - usually have a certain degree of arrogance to them that goes against being reminded that they are using other people's spells, so the sooner the name drops from the spell, the better :)
Wait, what?! The spells are the spells. How could they lose their name?
I don't really care much about the "how" -- I'm just glad there are unnamed versions of them. If one of my players wants to use one of these, I will tell him or her to take the unnamed version. There was no Tenser, Mordenkainen, etc., in my world.
I understand why Gygax did this originally, and that now that we have it, these named spells are a gaming tradition. But the idea that as a result there had to be a "Tenser" in the history of my world, or worse, that he wasn't in the history of my world but another world, yet somehow was "so powerful" that the people of my world know who he was, is offensive to me as a GM and world builder.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Wait, what?! The spells are the spells. How could they lose their name?
Just like nobody remembers who invented the spinning wheel. Someone invented it, but who remembers anymore?
Well, if 1,000 years ago someone named Westland created Westly’s Wishing Spell, and after 800 or 900 years everyone forgets who Westly was, or that he even existed. So now, folks just call it Wish. The people of the realms still remember Bigby, Rory, Tasha, Mordenkainen, Tenser, Leomund.... They’re more recent after all.
But apparently people in the realms have already started to forget that Leomund created a Tiny Hut and a Secret Chest, or that Mordenkainen was the first to summon a Faithful Hound, or that Tenser needed to cary a bunch of coins back from a dungeon and created a Floating Disk to do it, or that it was Tasha who invented a spell to inflict Hideous Laughter on someone. And they have completely forgotten that it used to be names Tasha’s Uncontrollable Hideous Laughter.
We remember because it is meta knowledge. But the fictional people of the realms don’t have that meta knowledge.
5e's version of reality is a completely separate history from the ones in which any of those names existed anyway. Correct me if I am wrong, but Greyhawk technically does not even exist yet in 5e outside of homebrew. Is it referenced anywhere in any currently published 5e official material?
I really cannot speak to the others, but Tasha seems to be official 5e canon at this point.
Most of the great wizards of the various worlds have spoken before in canon. There used to be a series of articles in one of the magazine where Mordenkainen, Elminster and Dalamar would get together for tea or some such.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Most of the great wizards of the various worlds have spoken before in canon. There used to be a series of articles in one of the magazine where Mordenkainen, Elminster and Dalamar would get together for tea or some such.
Well, as of now Mordenkainen is officially on Toril anyway, being tended to by Elminster and Storm ("Death Masks").
Honestly, who cares about the names? The characters don't know the spell names. Only the players do.
What makes you think the characters don't know the spell names?
D&D's magic was originally based on Vance's system from the Dying Earth series, and the characters in those short stories absolutely knew the names of the spells they were using. They even discussed them with each other, in dialogue. "You can try that, but I know Johanssen's Countering Reaction and I will just block it," etc. (Made-up example dialog.)
Furthermore, if the spell didn't have a name, how would you know it was a "Scroll of Fireball?" How would you be able to tell someone else that it is a "Scroll of Fireball?" And so on?
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Maybe it creates "yon old fiery cracker". And anyways, a fireball is a real thing. Also, I had not read the Dying Earth series and I do not think that Wizards is restricted to copying everything they have supposedly done before them.
Let's bring things back on topic regarding the OPs game issue. If people want to discuss the history of named spells, a new thread would be more suitable.
@Castlesandchimeras I agree with your original post. I would’ve taken the two girls he kicked out (which sounds like gender discrimination tbh) and anybody else who wanted to join and started a new group.
Why does it sound like gender discrimination? Nothing about his post other than the fact that it's females involved sounds like gender discrimination.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Hmm... Maybe? But then girls can be such pests when they are annoyed as they have sharper tongues due to their superior intelligences then males. Not gender-discriminating here, just making a joke.
Hmm... Maybe? But then girls can be such pests when they are annoyed as they have sharper tongues due to their superior intelligences then males. Not gender-discriminating here, just making a joke.
Totally cool 😊
And maybe I overreacted. Certainly the OP doesn’t sound like he’s (or she’s) discriminating. I’m just sensitive to stuff like that.
It’s just when you kick two girls out of the game at once and it doesn’t seem like they did anything really wrong, it starts to look suspicious. Sorry if I’m being paranoid.
Excuse me; I don't mind causal players but 2 years and not knowing the rules for your pc is too long. I have ran 8+ tables before. i would take over the group but. No story line involving the casuals. Babysitter for those who have troubles with the rules. Turn the group into a beer and pretzels game style. That is if you all legal to drink.
The counter to that is that in 2 years a good DM should also have a good idea of their players. Stop giving important information that should be shared to someone not into social interaction and if there is someone who wants more fights, occasionally play to that and give more fights.
One virtually never has 'exactly the right people' at the table for your campaign. And aspects of the story beg the question 'Do these people really need more babysitting, or does the DM simply keep trying to shove them into positions they do not enjoy?
Also, if they are using spells 'wrong' and this is found out later, that implies the DM does not know the spells any better than they do and only discovers this by looking the spells up later themselves.
There are 400+ spells in 5e, do you really expect a DM to memorize every single spell? I personally know the most common spells and what they do (ex: fireball, shocking grasp, hellish rebuke, etc.), but I still have players frequently pull out spells I don't know. That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
Context. Don't just toss out that 400+ spells line. The party will not have 400+ spells. Similarly there are not going to be 100 subclasses in the campaign. The DM should have up to date copies of all the PC's and be familiar with them.
Players should know the rules but saying that it is not on the DM is like saying it is not on the game referee to know all the rules in any given sports match, or a tax auditor to know tax law (which has a heck of a lot more than 400 lines or rules). If a player casts something the DM is not familiar with it takes only a couple seconds to look it up. How in blazes does a DM decide what happens without knowing what something a PC does actually does?
Okay your wizard cast haste on the fighter. Bob give me a system shock survival roll and age 5 years. Sorry that what I remember about haste. What page number is haste on?
Excuse me; I don't mind causal players but 2 years and not knowing the rules for your pc is too long. I have ran 8+ tables before. i would take over the group but. No story line involving the casuals. Babysitter for those who have troubles with the rules. Turn the group into a beer and pretzels game style. That is if you all legal to drink.
The counter to that is that in 2 years a good DM should also have a good idea of their players. Stop giving important information that should be shared to someone not into social interaction and if there is someone who wants more fights, occasionally play to that and give more fights.
One virtually never has 'exactly the right people' at the table for your campaign. And aspects of the story beg the question 'Do these people really need more babysitting, or does the DM simply keep trying to shove them into positions they do not enjoy?
Also, if they are using spells 'wrong' and this is found out later, that implies the DM does not know the spells any better than they do and only discovers this by looking the spells up later themselves.
There are 400+ spells in 5e, do you really expect a DM to memorize every single spell? I personally know the most common spells and what they do (ex: fireball, shocking grasp, hellish rebuke, etc.), but I still have players frequently pull out spells I don't know. That is why it is their job to know THEIR spells, not the DM's. The same goes for class features. There are almost 100 non-ua subclasses so knowing every class feature is not possible for the DM, you should know the most common ones but you can't know them all. Thus, it is up to the player to know their spells and class features because no DM can know every class feature and spell.
Context. Don't just toss out that 400+ spells line. The party will not have 400+ spells. Similarly there are not going to be 100 subclasses in the campaign. The DM should have up to date copies of all the PC's and be familiar with them.
Players should know the rules but saying that it is not on the DM is like saying it is not on the game referee to know all the rules in any given sports match, or a tax auditor to know tax law (which has a heck of a lot more than 400 lines or rules). If a player casts something the DM is not familiar with it takes only a couple seconds to look it up. How in blazes does a DM decide what happens without knowing what something a PC does actually does?
Okay your wizard cast haste on the fighter. Bob give me a system shock survival roll and age 5 years. Sorry that what I remember about haste. What page number is haste on?
3rd level wizard spell and has been since 1e, possibly since 0e. No system shock or aging issues anymore, but does more than just an extra action a turn these days too. And if it takes you more than a few seconds to look up a spell you know the name, class and level of, well, any DM having difficulties with that should probably stay a player.... they would have trouble managing their own NPC's....
Let see. I been DMing AL Games for 4 years, 19 days, 8 hours 14 minutes. It still takes me a minute or two to find a spell that does not get a lot of play time. I still have subclasses in the player's handbook which have not been played at my table. I still occasionally throw out AD&D information. But I am an old fart. I not longer reading myself asleep with the PHB or DMG.
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A good additional reason is that wizards - those powerful ones - usually have a certain degree of arrogance to them that goes against being reminded that they are using other people's spells, so the sooner the name drops from the spell, the better :)
I don't really care much about the "how" -- I'm just glad there are unnamed versions of them. If one of my players wants to use one of these, I will tell him or her to take the unnamed version. There was no Tenser, Mordenkainen, etc., in my world.
I understand why Gygax did this originally, and that now that we have it, these named spells are a gaming tradition. But the idea that as a result there had to be a "Tenser" in the history of my world, or worse, that he wasn't in the history of my world but another world, yet somehow was "so powerful" that the people of my world know who he was, is offensive to me as a GM and world builder.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I really cannot speak to the others, but Tasha seems to be official 5e canon at this point.
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Most of the great wizards of the various worlds have spoken before in canon. There used to be a series of articles in one of the magazine where Mordenkainen, Elminster and Dalamar would get together for tea or some such.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well, as of now Mordenkainen is officially on Toril anyway, being tended to by Elminster and Storm ("Death Masks").
That's sad and f-ed up.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
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"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Why?
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Honestly, who cares about the names? The characters don't know the spell names. Only the players do.
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What makes you think the characters don't know the spell names?
D&D's magic was originally based on Vance's system from the Dying Earth series, and the characters in those short stories absolutely knew the names of the spells they were using. They even discussed them with each other, in dialogue. "You can try that, but I know Johanssen's Countering Reaction and I will just block it," etc. (Made-up example dialog.)
Furthermore, if the spell didn't have a name, how would you know it was a "Scroll of Fireball?" How would you be able to tell someone else that it is a "Scroll of Fireball?" And so on?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Maybe it creates "yon old fiery cracker". And anyways, a fireball is a real thing. Also, I had not read the Dying Earth series and I do not think that Wizards is restricted to copying everything they have supposedly done before them.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
But this is for DM mutinies, not spell arguments!
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Let's bring things back on topic regarding the OPs game issue. If people want to discuss the history of named spells, a new thread would be more suitable.
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Yeah, let us know how it goes. I'm saying either person was wrong, but splitting the group is probably the best option.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Back on topic...
@Castlesandchimeras I agree with your original post. I would’ve taken the two girls he kicked out (which sounds like gender discrimination tbh) and anybody else who wanted to join and started a new group.
Keep me posted, kay?
Why does it sound like gender discrimination? Nothing about his post other than the fact that it's females involved sounds like gender discrimination.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Hmm... Maybe? But then girls can be such pests when they are annoyed as they have sharper tongues due to their superior intelligences then males. Not gender-discriminating here, just making a joke.
Frequent Eladrin || They/Them, but accept all pronouns
Luz Noceda would like to remind you that you're worth loving!
Totally cool 😊
And maybe I overreacted. Certainly the OP doesn’t sound like he’s (or she’s) discriminating. I’m just sensitive to stuff like that.
It’s just when you kick two girls out of the game at once and it doesn’t seem like they did anything really wrong, it starts to look suspicious. Sorry if I’m being paranoid.
Anyway, let’s stay on topic.
Okay your wizard cast haste on the fighter. Bob give me a system shock survival roll and age 5 years. Sorry that what I remember about haste. What page number is haste on?
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
Let see. I been DMing AL Games for 4 years, 19 days, 8 hours 14 minutes. It still takes me a minute or two to find a spell that does not get a lot of play time. I still have subclasses in the player's handbook which have not been played at my table. I still occasionally throw out AD&D information. But I am an old fart. I not longer reading myself asleep with the PHB or DMG.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.