You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
I would just like to add that although it is strength to draw any given bow, additional strength beyond the bow's rating does not really help much, particularly in the case of lighter bows. There is a physical limit to how far you can draw a bow back.
On the other hand, hand eye coordination (dexterity) does affect accuracy. This is where muscle memory comes in, not merely applying strength, but applying it exactly 'so' on demand and on a consistent basis.
Again, that's the completely different off-topic that we don't need to go into here. ;)
Howso? Again, Elves have no strength penalties. Thus they are on average as strong as humans or most other races. However, they are more dexterous and dexterity does affect accuracy with a bow, not merely in game but in reality too.
So how is that off topic? Or at least how is that in any way more off topic than discussing whether bows should be strength based or not?
Meanwhile discussing whether any given post is off topic or not *is* off topic.
And therein lies the paradox lol
You have a nice...patina 😊
Sorry lol. They’re both lines from the same novel.
You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
I would just like to add that although it is strength to draw any given bow, additional strength beyond the bow's rating does not really help much, particularly in the case of lighter bows. There is a physical limit to how far you can draw a bow back.
On the other hand, hand eye coordination (dexterity) does affect accuracy. This is where muscle memory comes in, not merely applying strength, but applying it exactly 'so' on demand and on a consistent basis.
Again, that's the completely different off-topic that we don't need to go into here. ;)
Howso? Again, Elves have no strength penalties. Thus they are on average as strong as humans or most other races. However, they are more dexterous and dexterity does affect accuracy with a bow, not merely in game but in reality too.
So how is that off topic? Or at least how is that in any way more off topic than discussing whether bows should be strength based or not?
Meanwhile discussing whether any given post is off topic or not *is* off topic.
This thread "How come that elves use bows?" and not "why doe bows use dex and not strength in D&D?" is it not?
That said, good of you to realize that your are off-topic.
You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
I would just like to add that although it is strength to draw any given bow, additional strength beyond the bow's rating does not really help much, particularly in the case of lighter bows. There is a physical limit to how far you can draw a bow back.
On the other hand, hand eye coordination (dexterity) does affect accuracy. This is where muscle memory comes in, not merely applying strength, but applying it exactly 'so' on demand and on a consistent basis.
Again, that's the completely different off-topic that we don't need to go into here. ;)
Howso? Again, Elves have no strength penalties. Thus they are on average as strong as humans or most other races. However, they are more dexterous and dexterity does affect accuracy with a bow, not merely in game but in reality too.
So how is that off topic? Or at least how is that in any way more off topic than discussing whether bows should be strength based or not?
Meanwhile discussing whether any given post is off topic or not *is* off topic.
This thread "How come that elves use bows?" and not "why doe bows use dex and not strength in D&D?" is it not?
That said, good of you to realize that your are off-topic.
Ok, I'll try this again, trying to remain polite despite the continued insults.
Elves get a dex bonus. In this world, bows use dex.
Meanwhile the OP:
They are slender and physically weaker than humans, even somewhat fragile. To use a bow you need to be a very strong person, the greater the draw weight, the stronger the bow.
They ARE trying to say that bows should be strength based rather than dexterity based. They are doing so backhandedly via questioning Elven proficiencies but they are questioning that. They are not merely saying 'Why do Elves use bows' but are actually saying 'It makes no sense that Elves use bows since bows are strength based and Elves are not strong.'
Pointing out that the discussion has veered off-topic is in no way an insult. But yet again, the discussion that you brought up on whether or not bows should use dex or strength has nothing what so ever to do with the actual topic, which is *why* elves tend to use bows in fantasy fiction. The reason behind that can be traced back to their tolkienian origins whereas talking about what ability should be used is purely a mechanical discussion that is its own seperate discussion.
But the OP did not ask about 'fantasy fiction.' The discussion went into that, but only in the process of discussing the OP's question. The OP on the other hand did, as I quoted for you, comment on bows being strength based in real life. Perhaps you should read the OP before insisting what is or is not on topic?
Well, since there are no elves in real life anything containing elves is by definition fantasy. Also we are on a D&D forum and D&D is fantasy. Lastly, which has already been pointed out, the fact that you need a certain amount of strength when pulling a bow doesn't have anything to do with why elves use bows in this particular fiction and even though it might have something to do with what ability is used in this game to use bows, the discussion on which particular ability should be used is a completely separate topic.
Pointing out that the discussion has veered off-topic is in no way an insult. But yet again, the discussion that you brought up on whether or not bows should use dex or strength has nothing what so ever to do with the actual topic, which is *why* elves tend to use bows in fantasy fiction. The reason behind that can be traced back to their tolkienian origins whereas talking about what ability should be used is purely a mechanical discussion that is its own seperate discussion.
You're declaring other posters "off topic" because they are addressing the original poster in ways your limited reading of that post doesn't allow. Yes the OP did ask why do elves use bows, and sort of typed that in the subject line. However, if you read the entirety of the OP's concern, their argument comes from a position of strength, so to speak. So, sure "well, Tolkien" provides one handwavium answer. But plenty of other (yes, of course also handwavium answered also since this is all fantasy) questions are begged by the OP's arguments against elves because of notions of how strength is manifest and the OPs understanding of bows (and the edit call out to the moon elf female ranger in the PHB brands this question in line with every other question the OP has brought to this forum). So, to defend the implicit nay-say to the way D&D does things, and reflective of the diversity of approaches to fantasy taken by modern D&D, a lively discussion of the meta has ensued. You take some sort of umbrage to that, I guess for reasons and investments I don't follow. So I"m not surprised other posters don't appreciate your effort to call some posts out of line in this thread.
I feel this is one of those instances where I'm puzzled as to why posters who see a thread going down a path that don't care for, or feel the discussion has run its course, just don't simply unsubscribe.
RE: a comment upthread about subraces that are notably strong and also good at archery:
Grugach in AD&D 1E UA hardback gain the bow +1 to hit bonus and a big fat +2 to STR (capped at 18).
If you want very strong Elves who are good archers, Grugach fit the bill.
They are also quite short, even for D&D/AD&d elves. Four and a half feet, or so. Small, very fair, thin, but broad-shouldered.
UA Wood Elves are similar, but with +1 STR, -1 INT. They lack some of the cool Grugach abilities but have more versatility in classes--they can be M-Us and Grugach cannot.
You want tall Tolkien elves, give them the usual +1 with swords and bows of any type, including longbows. If in your campaign world you are imagining smaller, frailer elves like in Game of Thrones, then simply say the +1 bonus is for short swords and short bows only.
I take blame for this one. Share a compliment and I think it lead to a argument of who is the greater expert.
Nah. They’re bickering because it happens to be a day that ends in the letter “y.” It’s what we do here. 🤷♂️ If they weren’t bickering with each other about this, then they’d be bickering with other people about something else. In fact, they are bickering with other people about other things while they’re bickering with each other about this. I know, I’m one of those other people.
And therein lies the paradox lol
You have a nice...patina 😊
Sorry lol. They’re both lines from the same novel.
This thread "How come that elves use bows?" and not "why doe bows use dex and not strength in D&D?" is it not?
That said, good of you to realize that your are off-topic.
Pointing out that the discussion has veered off-topic is in no way an insult. But yet again, the discussion that you brought up on whether or not bows should use dex or strength has nothing what so ever to do with the actual topic, which is *why* elves tend to use bows in fantasy fiction. The reason behind that can be traced back to their tolkienian origins whereas talking about what ability should be used is purely a mechanical discussion that is its own seperate discussion.
Well, since there are no elves in real life anything containing elves is by definition fantasy. Also we are on a D&D forum and D&D is fantasy. Lastly, which has already been pointed out, the fact that you need a certain amount of strength when pulling a bow doesn't have anything to do with why elves use bows in this particular fiction and even though it might have something to do with what ability is used in this game to use bows, the discussion on which particular ability should be used is a completely separate topic.
You're declaring other posters "off topic" because they are addressing the original poster in ways your limited reading of that post doesn't allow. Yes the OP did ask why do elves use bows, and sort of typed that in the subject line. However, if you read the entirety of the OP's concern, their argument comes from a position of strength, so to speak. So, sure "well, Tolkien" provides one handwavium answer. But plenty of other (yes, of course also handwavium answered also since this is all fantasy) questions are begged by the OP's arguments against elves because of notions of how strength is manifest and the OPs understanding of bows (and the edit call out to the moon elf female ranger in the PHB brands this question in line with every other question the OP has brought to this forum). So, to defend the implicit nay-say to the way D&D does things, and reflective of the diversity of approaches to fantasy taken by modern D&D, a lively discussion of the meta has ensued. You take some sort of umbrage to that, I guess for reasons and investments I don't follow. So I"m not surprised other posters don't appreciate your effort to call some posts out of line in this thread.
I feel this is one of those instances where I'm puzzled as to why posters who see a thread going down a path that don't care for, or feel the discussion has run its course, just don't simply unsubscribe.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
RE: a comment upthread about subraces that are notably strong and also good at archery:
Grugach in AD&D 1E UA hardback gain the bow +1 to hit bonus and a big fat +2 to STR (capped at 18).
If you want very strong Elves who are good archers, Grugach fit the bill.
They are also quite short, even for D&D/AD&d elves. Four and a half feet, or so. Small, very fair, thin, but broad-shouldered.
UA Wood Elves are similar, but with +1 STR, -1 INT. They lack some of the cool Grugach abilities but have more versatility in classes--they can be M-Us and Grugach cannot.
I’m confused. What are you guys fighting about?
You want tall Tolkien elves, give them the usual +1 with swords and bows of any type, including longbows. If in your campaign world you are imagining smaller, frailer elves like in Game of Thrones, then simply say the +1 bonus is for short swords and short bows only.
I take blame for this one. Share a compliment and I think it lead to a argument of who is the greater expert.
Outside the Lines Fantasy – A collection of self published fiction stories.
Nah. They’re bickering because it happens to be a day that ends in the letter “y.” It’s what we do here. 🤷♂️ If they weren’t bickering with each other about this, then they’d be bickering with other people about something else. In fact, they are bickering with other people about other things while they’re bickering with each other about this. I know, I’m one of those other people.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Thanks lol