I'm weak and I can use a bow. You can get some bows that really need good strength, sure, but the average bow doesn't. If I can shoot it with it, anyone can.
SO that would be the equivalent of a shortbow then and not a 100+ war bow. Good for you.
And nowhere in the in the original post of this thread was it mentioned this was specifically for war bows (which aren't a D&D thing) or any particular type of bow.
Also, I doubt a 6 ft length bow counts as a "short bow" but, go off.
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Or it could be a modern bow with all those pulleys that make it super easy to get a higher draw equivalent.
Compound Bows.
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I'm weak and I can use a bow. You can get some bows that really need good strength, sure, but the average bow doesn't. If I can shoot it with it, anyone can.
SO that would be the equivalent of a shortbow then and not a 100+ war bow. Good for you.
And nowhere in the in the original post of this thread was it mentioned this was specifically for war bows (which aren't a D&D thing) or any particular type of bow.
Except for, you know the longbow, which is what elves are usually depicted as using and wood elves get proficiency in.
Also, I doubt a 6 ft length bow counts as a "short bow" but, go off.
Did you miss the word "equivalent" in my post? The length of the bow is irrelevant but it's basic physics that you need to be stronger to be able to pull a heavier bow.
Or it could be a modern bow with all those pulleys that make it super easy to get a higher draw equivalent.
Compound Bows.
Right, it's why I suggested, rather than a mechanical solution a la a compound bow, Elves relationship with nature results in a sympathetic/supportive give from the wood from which the bow is fashioned. The wood literally "gives" more to an elf because of whatever handwavium connection elves have with trees.
To the original poster, regarding your edit calling out the female likely moon elf that's used to illustrate the Ranger class in the PHB, elven muscularity aside I think you have some misconceptions about the correlation of muscular hypertrophy and the capacity for athletic feats or actions that require a mix of strength and fine muscular control. As has often been discussed on this forum, splitting fields of weapons into "pure strength" or "pure dex" or "one stat or the other but only one stat finesse" weapons is a consequent of a rules system that puts human physical performance into three segregated scores. Melee largely goes with strength because in a face to face fight the one who hits hardest tends to wind up on top. Ranged attacks require a greater degree of hand eye coordination so they land in Dexterity. Is it "realistic" that strength doesn't matter in terms of how far someone can throw a javelin or spear? No, but the present edition didn't want to get combat that crunch bogged. That said, if I had a character with a high strength who wanted to push the range a bit, I'd probably allow it, and narratively if a low STR character misses with a hurled object I have falling short built in as a way to narrate the fail (also means the character has to travel less to recover).
Shadaversity of youtube has an great video on this topic. The basic thought is that their muscles are denser then humans.
This is probably the best route to go if you're worried about physical characteristics among races not making sense.
In my undergrad exercise physiology classes, we discussed comparative anatomy and physiology between humans and our genetic first cousins, chimpanzees and bonobos.
The average chimp male (usually no more than 130 lbs.) is one-and-a-half to two times stronger than the average human male (there's an urban myth about chimps being 5 times stronger than humans, but that's simply not the case).
There are several reasons for this. One is that their individual myofibrils (muscle fibers) are not only more dense, but longer. This allows them to generate much higher workload forces. Another is that their musculature is more heavily enervated, meaning that they have a much higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers. They're just overtuned (from a human perspective) for explosive power generation.
So, you can always explain away your Elven archer this way, as Ghoststalker has suggested. Same goes for that Halfling Fighter with the 20 Strength. :)
Since you are considerably closer to being a expert on this subject, how would you explain the muscle development of orcs. They seem to develop larger muscles on the whole then humans.
Winona Ryder’s character in The Age of Innocence is a gifted archer (granted it’s like finishing school archery but still) and I don’t think she’s particularly strong.
Shadaversity of youtube has an great video on this topic. The basic thought is that their muscles are denser then humans.
I have seen it, that's why I am here lol. Shad says that logically, they have to be with denser muscles, he doesn't says they are denser. If it was true, they would have been stronger than humans.
Not stronger. With better strength to body mass ratio. A 20 Str character is a 20 Str character. Human and elf with that score are equally strong.
Winona Ryder’s character in The Age of Innocence is a gifted archer (granted it’s like finishing school archery but still) and I don’t think she’s particularly strong.
The funny thing is that Daniel Day-Lewis character is an Archer but not very good at shooting a bow and arrow. That said, you can be very good at archery without being very strong but you won't be able to use powerful bows unless you actually have the physique for it. You can actually tell medieval archers from their bones since they developed their bodies differently from non-archers.
Winona Ryder’s character in The Age of Innocence is a gifted archer (granted it’s like finishing school archery but still) and I don’t think she’s particularly strong.
The funny thing is that Daniel Day-Lewis character is an Archer but not very good at shooting a bow and arrow. That said, you can be very good at archery without being very strong but you won't be able to use powerful bows unless you actually have the physique for it. You can actually tell medieval archers from their bones since they developed their bodies differently from non-archers.
Ikr!!! And so pretty too. I feel so bad that he just didn’t love her the way he did Michelle.
You gotta read The Rules of Seduction by Daniel Magida. I found it on Amazon a few years ago it’s amazing.
I've shot bows of different types on many occasions. I'm not good at it, as I don't have good hand-eye coordination (Dexterity), but I could use one. You do need strength to draw back the string, but for smaller bows, it isn't too difficult. Even a weakling like me can use bows, but I definitely couldn't use a compound or war-bow.
Shadaversity of youtube has an great video on this topic. The basic thought is that their muscles are denser then humans.
This is probably the best route to go if you're worried about physical characteristics among races not making sense.
In my undergrad exercise physiology classes, we discussed comparative anatomy and physiology between humans and our genetic first cousins, chimpanzees and bonobos.
The average chimp male (usually no more than 130 lbs.) is one-and-a-half to two times stronger than the average human male (there's an urban myth about chimps being 5 times stronger than humans, but that's simply not the case).
There are several reasons for this. One is that their individual myofibrils (muscle fibers) are not only more dense, but longer. This allows them to generate much higher workload forces. Another is that their musculature is more heavily enervated, meaning that they have a much higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers. They're just overtuned (from a human perspective) for explosive power generation.
So, you can always explain away your Elven archer this way, as Ghoststalker has suggested. Same goes for that Halfling Fighter with the 20 Strength. :)
It’s exactly these types of physiological explanations that I always site as the reasons for why the different D&D races have their various racial ability bonuses and certain other associated skills. I also presume that their eyes/vision have similar features like a non-inverted image for microsecond faster image processing, faster pupillary responses to light and distance, and more rods and a greater variety of cones.
That would explain both Darkvision and natural (Perception), and the increases to Hand-eye coordination in conjunction with greater enervation to lead to that +2 Dex.
I'm weak and I can use a bow. You can get some bows that really need good strength, sure, but the average bow doesn't. If I can shoot it with it, anyone can.
A lot of the Elf sub-races don't get Longbow proficiency. I'm thinking that is the one that would require strength if you were going to fire arrows out to max range. Realistically, you can get bows with lighter draws for shorter ranges, especially ones for hunting or lightly armored targets.
If you want send a hail of arrows into heavily armored targets, yeah, you probably need a high tension Longbow.
None of the Elven variants have penalties to strength, though and, whether you or anyone else thinks it is realistic or not and irrespective of the physics of bows in RL, in D&D there are no strength requirements on bows.
You actually zoomed in on something that wasn't my main point. I agree with Cyb3rM1nd 100%. I was only saying that Longbows could be bows that require STR but, that most bows could be used by average people quite easily. I was also pointing out to the OP, who questioned Elven STR as it applied to using bows in their mind, that many Elven sub-races actually don't get Longbow proficiency. I believe some do not get any bow proficiency.
As was said earlier, D&D does not have any STR requirements on bows, so there's no need to make up some reason elves are strong because it just isn't required. If I had to, I'd make up something about how they talk to the wood and it bends for them or something.
But the real point here is that D&D is not a medieval simulation no matter how much you want it to be. It's a game and it makes concessions to make the game fun. Basing ranged attacks on DEX was a decision almost certainly tied to how they wanted the game to function. Bows certainly need more than STR because hitting a target takes a lot more than just pulling the string back, but making it work off STR and DEX or adding STR requirements like heavy armor would cripple a lot of builds due to the required stat allocation and just not be worth it in a game where a spellcaster can shoot magic bullets with one stat.
D&D can't be a Tolkien simulation either because the characters in LotR did not need to be balanced against each other. Maiar like Gandalf, Elves, and Dunedain like Aragorn were simply better than humans in every measurable way. You can't put that right into a game because you'd be purposely hindering your party by picking human. So for elves they took the traits that differentiated them from humans and dwarves the most and threw away the rest. Thus elves are graceful and shoot bows.
Since you are considerably closer to being a expert on this subject, how would you explain the muscle development of orcs. They seem to develop larger muscles on the whole then humans.
Aw, I appreciate that, Ghost!
If it were my players asking, I'd probably just keep it simple and go with something like, "They're bigger". And since they tend to come from violent cultures, you could say that forced selection simply weeded out the smaller, weaker ones and left only the most robust to carry on the species. And don't forget Gruumsh investing them with god-tier steroids. Ha ha!
Don't forget that humans tend to be weaker than our size suggests. It seems that thing we swapped out over time for our brain development was muscular density and neuromuscular efficiency. If I'm reading the evolutionary biologists correctly, our musculoskeletal robustness would be the most cost-effective price to pay for the kinds of brains we have.
No, it's because at some point in human evolution, there was a shift away from having lots of short-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for short bursts of high-intensity power and toward having lots of long-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for sustaining activity for a long period of time but with less high-end output. The result was a species that couldn't run as fast or strike as hard with its forelimbs as another mammal of similar size, like a leopard, but what it could do was keep running for hours at at time without having to stop to rest, while most mammals can only run for a few minutes or a few seconds. This combined with an upright, bipedal stance that was more energy-efficient than walking on all fours.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Since you are considerably closer to being a expert on this subject, how would you explain the muscle development of orcs. They seem to develop larger muscles on the whole then humans.
Aw, I appreciate that, Ghost!
If it were my players asking, I'd probably just keep it simple and go with something like, "They're bigger". And since they tend to come from violent cultures, you could say that forced selection simply weeded out the smaller, weaker ones and left only the most robust to carry on the species. And don't forget Gruumsh investing them with god-tier steroids. Ha ha!
Don't forget that humans tend to be weaker than our size suggests. It seems that thing we swapped out over time for our brain development was muscular density and neuromuscular efficiency. If I'm reading the evolutionary biologists correctly, our musculoskeletal robustness would be the most cost-effective price to pay for the kinds of brains we have.
No, it's because at some point in human evolution, there was a shift away from having lots of short-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for short bursts of high-intensity power and toward having lots of long-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for sustaining activity for a long period of time but with less high-end output. The result was a species that couldn't run as fast or strike as hard with its forelimbs as another mammal of similar size, like a leopard, but what it could do was keep running for hours at at time without having to stop to rest, while most mammals can only run for a few minutes or a few seconds. This combined with an upright, bipedal stance that was more energy-efficient than walking on all fours.
That combined with our ability to sweat puts humans towards the high-end for endurance running, an evolutionary advantage to a predatory species. We can literally run our prey to death over a long enough distance. And being bipedal also results in better handling and tighter cornering at speed.
It also meant that with our hands free all the time, we could carry things like food and tools for long distances. This enabled the passage across expanses that, for example, had no drinkable water because water could be stored in a container like a gourde or ostrich egg. Or fruit and nuts could be gathered and carried while moving so that there would be something to eat later. It wasn't anywhere close to being purely predatory adaptations. But this is pretty far off topic.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I've shot bows of different types on many occasions. I'm not good at it, as I don't have good hand-eye coordination (Dexterity), but I could use one. You do need strength to draw back the string, but for smaller bows, it isn't too difficult. Even a weakling like me can use bows, but I definitely couldn't use a compound or war-bow.
This has already been adressed. Yes, you will need to use less strength for weaker bows but that's not the point when it comes to the reason why elves traditionally use bows. That goes back to Tolkien whose elves were depicted as stronger that humans.
I'm weak and I can use a bow. You can get some bows that really need good strength, sure, but the average bow doesn't. If I can shoot it with it, anyone can.
A lot of the Elf sub-races don't get Longbow proficiency. I'm thinking that is the one that would require strength if you were going to fire arrows out to max range. Realistically, you can get bows with lighter draws for shorter ranges, especially ones for hunting or lightly armored targets.
If you want send a hail of arrows into heavily armored targets, yeah, you probably need a high tension Longbow.
None of the Elven variants have penalties to strength, though and, whether you or anyone else thinks it is realistic or not and irrespective of the physics of bows in RL, in D&D there are no strength requirements on bows.
You actually zoomed in on something that wasn't my main point. I agree with Cyb3rM1nd 100%. I was only saying that Longbows could be bows that require STR but, that most bows could be used by average people quite easily. I was also pointing out to the OP, who questioned Elven STR as it applied to using bows in their mind, that many Elven sub-races actually don't get Longbow proficiency. I believe some do not get any bow proficiency.
Everyone uses muscle strength to pull a bow. It's just that in the clash of "Tolkien elves using bows" and "D&D rules uses Dex for bows" there is a weird discrepancy.
As was said earlier, D&D does not have any STR requirements on bows, so there's no need to make up some reason elves are strong because it just isn't required. If I had to, I'd make up something about how they talk to the wood and it bends for them or something.
But the real point here is that D&D is not a medieval simulation no matter how much you want it to be. It's a game and it makes concessions to make the game fun. Basing ranged attacks on DEX was a decision almost certainly tied to how they wanted the game to function. Bows certainly need more than STR because hitting a target takes a lot more than just pulling the string back, but making it work off STR and DEX or adding STR requirements like heavy armor would cripple a lot of builds due to the required stat allocation and just not be worth it in a game where a spellcaster can shoot magic bullets with one stat.
D&D can't be a Tolkien simulation either because the characters in LotR did not need to be balanced against each other. Maiar like Gandalf, Elves, and Dunedain like Aragorn were simply better than humans in every measurable way. You can't put that right into a game because you'd be purposely hindering your party by picking human. So for elves they took the traits that differentiated them from humans and dwarves the most and threw away the rest. Thus elves are graceful and shoot bows.
You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
I would just like to add that although it is strength to draw any given bow, additional strength beyond the bow's rating does not really help much, particularly in the case of lighter bows. There is a physical limit to how far you can draw a bow back.
On the other hand, hand eye coordination (dexterity) does affect accuracy. This is where muscle memory comes in, not merely applying strength, but applying it exactly 'so' on demand and on a consistent basis.
Again, that's the completely different off-topic that we don't need to go into here. ;)
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And nowhere in the in the original post of this thread was it mentioned this was specifically for war bows (which aren't a D&D thing) or any particular type of bow.
Also, I doubt a 6 ft length bow counts as a "short bow" but, go off.
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Compound Bows.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
Except for, you know the longbow, which is what elves are usually depicted as using and wood elves get proficiency in.
Did you miss the word "equivalent" in my post? The length of the bow is irrelevant but it's basic physics that you need to be stronger to be able to pull a heavier bow.
Right, it's why I suggested, rather than a mechanical solution a la a compound bow, Elves relationship with nature results in a sympathetic/supportive give from the wood from which the bow is fashioned. The wood literally "gives" more to an elf because of whatever handwavium connection elves have with trees.
To the original poster, regarding your edit calling out the female likely moon elf that's used to illustrate the Ranger class in the PHB, elven muscularity aside I think you have some misconceptions about the correlation of muscular hypertrophy and the capacity for athletic feats or actions that require a mix of strength and fine muscular control. As has often been discussed on this forum, splitting fields of weapons into "pure strength" or "pure dex" or "one stat or the other but only one stat finesse" weapons is a consequent of a rules system that puts human physical performance into three segregated scores. Melee largely goes with strength because in a face to face fight the one who hits hardest tends to wind up on top. Ranged attacks require a greater degree of hand eye coordination so they land in Dexterity. Is it "realistic" that strength doesn't matter in terms of how far someone can throw a javelin or spear? No, but the present edition didn't want to get combat that crunch bogged. That said, if I had a character with a high strength who wanted to push the range a bit, I'd probably allow it, and narratively if a low STR character misses with a hurled object I have falling short built in as a way to narrate the fail (also means the character has to travel less to recover).
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Legolas. end of story.
but I more commonly se them with magic
Well.. umm... Lord of the Rings?
Since you are considerably closer to being a expert on this subject, how would you explain the muscle development of orcs. They seem to develop larger muscles on the whole then humans.
Outside the Lines Fantasy – A collection of self published fiction stories.
Winona Ryder’s character in The Age of Innocence is a gifted archer (granted it’s like finishing school archery but still) and I don’t think she’s particularly strong.
Not stronger. With better strength to body mass ratio. A 20 Str character is a 20 Str character. Human and elf with that score are equally strong.
The funny thing is that Daniel Day-Lewis character is an Archer but not very good at shooting a bow and arrow. That said, you can be very good at archery without being very strong but you won't be able to use powerful bows unless you actually have the physique for it. You can actually tell medieval archers from their bones since they developed their bodies differently from non-archers.
Ikr!!! And so pretty too. I feel so bad that he just didn’t love her the way he did Michelle.
You gotta read The Rules of Seduction by Daniel Magida. I found it on Amazon a few years ago it’s amazing.
Sorry lol. Don’t mean to derail the thread.
I've shot bows of different types on many occasions. I'm not good at it, as I don't have good hand-eye coordination (Dexterity), but I could use one. You do need strength to draw back the string, but for smaller bows, it isn't too difficult. Even a weakling like me can use bows, but I definitely couldn't use a compound or war-bow.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
It’s exactly these types of physiological explanations that I always site as the reasons for why the different D&D races have their various racial ability bonuses and certain other associated skills. I also presume that their eyes/vision have similar features like a non-inverted image for microsecond faster image processing, faster pupillary responses to light and distance, and more rods and a greater variety of cones.
That would explain both Darkvision and natural (Perception), and the increases to Hand-eye coordination in conjunction with greater enervation to lead to that +2 Dex.
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You actually zoomed in on something that wasn't my main point. I agree with Cyb3rM1nd 100%. I was only saying that Longbows could be bows that require STR but, that most bows could be used by average people quite easily. I was also pointing out to the OP, who questioned Elven STR as it applied to using bows in their mind, that many Elven sub-races actually don't get Longbow proficiency. I believe some do not get any bow proficiency.
As was said earlier, D&D does not have any STR requirements on bows, so there's no need to make up some reason elves are strong because it just isn't required. If I had to, I'd make up something about how they talk to the wood and it bends for them or something.
But the real point here is that D&D is not a medieval simulation no matter how much you want it to be. It's a game and it makes concessions to make the game fun. Basing ranged attacks on DEX was a decision almost certainly tied to how they wanted the game to function. Bows certainly need more than STR because hitting a target takes a lot more than just pulling the string back, but making it work off STR and DEX or adding STR requirements like heavy armor would cripple a lot of builds due to the required stat allocation and just not be worth it in a game where a spellcaster can shoot magic bullets with one stat.
D&D can't be a Tolkien simulation either because the characters in LotR did not need to be balanced against each other. Maiar like Gandalf, Elves, and Dunedain like Aragorn were simply better than humans in every measurable way. You can't put that right into a game because you'd be purposely hindering your party by picking human. So for elves they took the traits that differentiated them from humans and dwarves the most and threw away the rest. Thus elves are graceful and shoot bows.
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(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
No, it's because at some point in human evolution, there was a shift away from having lots of short-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for short bursts of high-intensity power and toward having lots of long-twitch muscle fiber, which is good for sustaining activity for a long period of time but with less high-end output. The result was a species that couldn't run as fast or strike as hard with its forelimbs as another mammal of similar size, like a leopard, but what it could do was keep running for hours at at time without having to stop to rest, while most mammals can only run for a few minutes or a few seconds. This combined with an upright, bipedal stance that was more energy-efficient than walking on all fours.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That combined with our ability to sweat puts humans towards the high-end for endurance running, an evolutionary advantage to a predatory species. We can literally run our prey to death over a long enough distance. And being bipedal also results in better handling and tighter cornering at speed.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It also meant that with our hands free all the time, we could carry things like food and tools for long distances. This enabled the passage across expanses that, for example, had no drinkable water because water could be stored in a container like a gourde or ostrich egg. Or fruit and nuts could be gathered and carried while moving so that there would be something to eat later. It wasn't anywhere close to being purely predatory adaptations. But this is pretty far off topic.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
This has already been adressed. Yes, you will need to use less strength for weaker bows but that's not the point when it comes to the reason why elves traditionally use bows. That goes back to Tolkien whose elves were depicted as stronger that humans.
Everyone uses muscle strength to pull a bow. It's just that in the clash of "Tolkien elves using bows" and "D&D rules uses Dex for bows" there is a weird discrepancy.
You kind of hit the nail right on the head there (even though it isn't little more than pulling the string back, but you have to do it consistently which requires specialized muscles, muscle memory and so on which is a completely different topic that we don't need to get into here) with the whole Strength versus Dex thing as well as balance thing. Nicely written.
Again, that's the completely different off-topic that we don't need to go into here. ;)