This is really up to how YOU run your games more than any widespread social trends.
Very true. But, the current social trends almost guarantee we're not getting "Dark Sun" for 5th Edition, and that makes me genuinely sad. :(
I don't see why not. Django Unchained and the Handmaid's Tale are two examples of modern media depicting slavery that the uh... Twitter crowd... didn't seem to mind. Because most people understand the basic concept that depicting a dystopia doesn't mean you support it.
Anyway, I'm trying not to get too political here. Because I know no matter what WotC do, they can't please everyone. Either they include more options to fit more diverse consumer wants, or people go back to older editions or different RPGs, or someone creates a new RPG to cater to disgruntled D&D players. It's not the end of the world.
This is really up to how YOU run your games more than any widespread social trends.
Very true. But, the current social trends almost guarantee we're not getting "Dark Sun" for 5th Edition, and that makes me genuinely sad. :(
I don't see why not. Django Unchained and the Handmaid's Tale are two examples of modern media depicting slavery that the uh... Twitter crowd... didn't seem to mind. Because most people understand the basic concept that depicting a dystopia doesn't mean you support it.
Anyway, I'm trying not to get too political here. Because I know no matter what WotC do, they can't please everyone. Either they include more options to fit more diverse consumer wants, or people go back to older editions or different RPGs, or someone creates a new RPG to cater to disgruntled D&D players. It's not the end of the world.
I think the major difference is that this media is entirely focused on the issue of slavery and is able to carefully exam it with full weight placed on the issue. A DnD setting is much more open to interpretations and less able to carefully handle the subject with the respect it deserves. Its possible for sure and I can fully imagine a good group providing a very compelling narrative for it. Overall I would say you could run a Dark Sun yourself with little effort as is, but the way WotC has been insulating themselves from controversy I doubt it will happen. However, I could be wrong and I would be glad to be as I find the setting interesting.
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
Yes! I feel like the average game of D&D at this point is just plain silly, and I feel like the prominence of streams (Critical Role seems like one of the more serious ones, and they do a lot of jokey stuff) is one of the reasons for it. It's just the prevalent culture at this point. I hope WotC knows there are still some of us out there who play serious campaigns...but given that they told me RotF would feel like The Shining or The Thing, and then gave me this, I'm starting to doubt it.
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
I definitely agree.
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A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
I agree. I love the adventure still, but it was marketed as a dark, horror adventure, but it is more of a goofy adventure than horror, IMO. I think they could pull it off somehow with Dark Sun or Ravenloft, but I doubt it will be as grim as some would like.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Dungeons and Dragons, as an overall system, does not do 'Horror' well. Horror, at its core, is about disempowerment and ignorance. D&D characters, even at low levels, are replete with numerous broadly useful options for problem-solving and are able to gather information in any number of ways. One could 'disempower' PCs by utilizing enemies vastly too powerful to be defeated in combat, but a D&D PC is still generally able to affect the world itself in many useful ways. And eventually, your players will get pissed off if they're always one initiative roll away from a TPK in a game which is eighty percent combat engine.
Dark can be done. The world the PCs find themselves in can be grim, wretched, and cynically devoid of hope. This is much of the intent behind a 'points of light' setting, in fact - it's all civilization can do to keep the final few crumbling sparks of society alive in a world that relentlessly pushes towards their extinction. The Grim Hollow setting, as one example, accomplishes 'Dark' through deft deployment of classic horror tropes wile acknowledging that the tone of almost any campaign is going to be the PCs striving to make the world a better place - whether simply for themselves, for their community, for their nation, or even for all of Etharis.
Acknowledging this tendency, hard-coded into D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular, is key to creating a 'Horror' game that works. You cannot do Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, or any other disempowered classic-horror slog in this system as anything but a short one-shot or microadventure. Long campaigns will result in the players pushing back against the horror. Either they die in the attempt or they start scoring victories. The key is that in a truly dark setting, there is no Saving The World. Etharis is beyond salvation. Ravenloft/Barovia, Icewind Dale, all of these places - darkness' grip is too strong to be shaken by one band of adventurers. if you're good, you can save yourselves. If you're better, and a little lucky, you can save your loved ones and the community you call home. If you're a lot lucky, even more skilled, and push as hard as you can...you might inspire the next generation of heroes who will hold aloft the torch of your little point of light.
Dungeons and Dragons, as an overall system, does not do 'Horror' well. Horror, at its core, is about disempowerment and ignorance. D&D characters, even at low levels, are replete with numerous broadly useful options for problem-solving and are able to gather information in any number of ways. One could 'disempower' PCs by utilizing enemies vastly too powerful to be defeated in combat, but a D&D PC is still generally able to affect the world itself in many useful ways. And eventually, your players will get pissed off if they're always one initiative roll away from a TPK in a game which is eighty percent combat engine.
Dark can be done. The world the PCs find themselves in can be grim, wretched, and cynically devoid of hope. This is much of the intent behind a 'points of light' setting, in fact - it's all civilization can do to keep the final few crumbling sparks of society alive in a world that relentlessly pushes towards their extinction. The Grim Hollow setting, as one example, accomplishes 'Dark' through deft deployment of classic horror tropes wile acknowledging that the tone of almost any campaign is going to be the PCs striving to make the world a better place - whether simply for themselves, for their community, for their nation, or even for all of Etharis.
Acknowledging this tendency, hard-coded into D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular, is key to creating a 'Horror' game that works. You cannot do Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, or any other disempowered classic-horror slog in this system as anything but a short one-shot or microadventure. Long campaigns will result in the players pushing back against the horror. Either they die in the attempt or they start scoring victories. The key is that in a truly dark setting, there is no Saving The World. Etharis is beyond salvation. Ravenloft/Barovia, Icewind Dale, all of these places - darkness' grip is too strong to be shaken by one band of adventurers. if you're good, you can save yourselves. If you're better, and a little lucky, you can save your loved ones and the community you call home. If you're a lot lucky, even more skilled, and push as hard as you can...you might inspire the next generation of heroes who will hold aloft the torch of your little point of light.
I am not overtly familiar with Dark Sun but I think that this would be hard to accomplish with the setting as its bleak but also overtly horrible in its bleakness. Its like The Road level bleak where reality so harsh that you will likely have to do some messed up stuff to survive. This may include selling out your wizard as they are an Arcane caster and if caught might mean you have to let them die to save the rest of the party.
The setting just doesn't meld with the vibe of 5e.
I think that 5e has had legs due to the fact it doesn't go to the extremes too much with its official content...I do not think they will break that for Dark Sun as it just isn't that popular of a setting.
5e will likely continue to be down the middle and likely do better because of it.
Dungeons and Dragons, as an overall system, does not do 'Horror' well. Horror, at its core, is about disempowerment and ignorance. D&D characters, even at low levels, are replete with numerous broadly useful options for problem-solving and are able to gather information in any number of ways. One could 'disempower' PCs by utilizing enemies vastly too powerful to be defeated in combat, but a D&D PC is still generally able to affect the world itself in many useful ways. And eventually, your players will get pissed off if they're always one initiative roll away from a TPK in a game which is eighty percent combat engine.
Dark can be done. The world the PCs find themselves in can be grim, wretched, and cynically devoid of hope. This is much of the intent behind a 'points of light' setting, in fact - it's all civilization can do to keep the final few crumbling sparks of society alive in a world that relentlessly pushes towards their extinction. The Grim Hollow setting, as one example, accomplishes 'Dark' through deft deployment of classic horror tropes wile acknowledging that the tone of almost any campaign is going to be the PCs striving to make the world a better place - whether simply for themselves, for their community, for their nation, or even for all of Etharis.
Acknowledging this tendency, hard-coded into D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular, is key to creating a 'Horror' game that works. You cannot do Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, or any other disempowered classic-horror slog in this system as anything but a short one-shot or microadventure. Long campaigns will result in the players pushing back against the horror. Either they die in the attempt or they start scoring victories. The key is that in a truly dark setting, there is no Saving The World. Etharis is beyond salvation. Ravenloft/Barovia, Icewind Dale, all of these places - darkness' grip is too strong to be shaken by one band of adventurers. if you're good, you can save yourselves. If you're better, and a little lucky, you can save your loved ones and the community you call home. If you're a lot lucky, even more skilled, and push as hard as you can...you might inspire the next generation of heroes who will hold aloft the torch of your little point of light.
The setting just doesn't meld with the vibe of 5e.
I don't get that. Previous versions had NUMEROUS "vibes". Wildly different flavors that allowed varied groups to find a setting they enjoyed.
If you're correct, it's almost like WotC is saying, "We've decided that there's only a narrow emotional bandwidth that we're comfortable with YOUR table exploring. In that vein, it's more important for us to curate that, and we think that cutting off several potentially large revenue streams on previously beloved products is an acceptable trade-off".
I'm a bit doubtful about these potentially large revenue streams. How well do setting books sell, all told? How well would they sell if there was 8-9-10 of them? Particularly the ones that would be more extreme? I mean, I have a decent disposable income so I'll buy most of what gets thrown at me, but I don't think that goes for the majority of players and I'm also a DM. Plenty of player-only people out there that probably never buy anything beyond the PHB, if even that. The Acquisitions Incorporated book is pretty much just for PA fans, and is largely produced by Penny Arcade as well. D&D vs Rick and Morty is a gag more than anything else. The Wildemount book is arguably the most generally useful for your average D&D player out of the non-WotC setting books, but that too was produced based on Critical Role's popularity and fame instead of broad appeal to Joe Q Player out there. I'm kind of baffled by the choice for two M:tG setting books (though I like Ravnica concept-wise at least, for an intrigue-heavy setting) before more old fan-favourite established D&D settings, but my impression at least is that the three non-WotC setting books aren't there instead of others - they're there in addition to the few WotC has been willing to commit to by themselves so far. If they really wanted to, they could have put out a generic Greyhawk book at least, or more Forgotten Realms setting books, or even a Dragonlance with the edges filed off. Seeing the product lineup, I'm fairly sure WotC doesn't think there's great money in (lots of) setting books.
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I think D&D 5e will eventually make way for a version 6e. That said, this version is fun and has a lot of life left, and there continue to be good revenue possibilities for WOtC. For example, would love to see them develop rules addendums for SciFi/Tech, Westerns, Spies/Top Secret, Monster Hunter (Modern), Superhero, and possibly even a modern military/black ops or WWII genre. Each of these genres could be further tweaked by excluding magic or making magic very rare.
They can also go back and re-issue a new Players Handbook and DMs guide that fixes things that may be broken, maybe call it D&D 5.1e.
There are systems like Savage Worlds that do this well but on a smaller scale. They lend themselves to smaller episodic type games and don't always scale well for long-running campaigns. The DM and Players also have to invest in and learn a whole new system. I believe it would be more ideal to leverage the basics of the D&D mechanics and just add new rules for fire-arms, technology, vehicles, space travel, alien races, ....
Dungeons and Dragons, as an overall system, does not do 'Horror' well. Horror, at its core, is about disempowerment and ignorance. D&D characters, even at low levels, are replete with numerous broadly useful options for problem-solving and are able to gather information in any number of ways. One could 'disempower' PCs by utilizing enemies vastly too powerful to be defeated in combat, but a D&D PC is still generally able to affect the world itself in many useful ways. And eventually, your players will get pissed off if they're always one initiative roll away from a TPK in a game which is eighty percent combat engine.
Dark can be done. The world the PCs find themselves in can be grim, wretched, and cynically devoid of hope. This is much of the intent behind a 'points of light' setting, in fact - it's all civilization can do to keep the final few crumbling sparks of society alive in a world that relentlessly pushes towards their extinction. The Grim Hollow setting, as one example, accomplishes 'Dark' through deft deployment of classic horror tropes wile acknowledging that the tone of almost any campaign is going to be the PCs striving to make the world a better place - whether simply for themselves, for their community, for their nation, or even for all of Etharis.
Acknowledging this tendency, hard-coded into D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular, is key to creating a 'Horror' game that works. You cannot do Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, or any other disempowered classic-horror slog in this system as anything but a short one-shot or microadventure. Long campaigns will result in the players pushing back against the horror. Either they die in the attempt or they start scoring victories. The key is that in a truly dark setting, there is no Saving The World. Etharis is beyond salvation. Ravenloft/Barovia, Icewind Dale, all of these places - darkness' grip is too strong to be shaken by one band of adventurers. if you're good, you can save yourselves. If you're better, and a little lucky, you can save your loved ones and the community you call home. If you're a lot lucky, even more skilled, and push as hard as you can...you might inspire the next generation of heroes who will hold aloft the torch of your little point of light.
The setting just doesn't meld with the vibe of 5e.
I don't get that. Previous versions had NUMEROUS "vibes". Wildly different flavors that allowed varied groups to find a setting they enjoyed.
If you're correct, it's almost like WotC is saying, "We've decided that there's only a narrow emotional bandwidth that we're comfortable with YOUR table exploring. In that vein, it's more important for us to curate that, and we think that cutting off several potentially large revenue streams on previously beloved products is an acceptable trade-off".
I'm a bit doubtful about these potentially large revenue streams. How well do setting books sell, all told? How well would they sell if there was 8-9-10 of them? Particularly the ones that would be more extreme? I mean, I have a decent disposable income so I'll buy most of what gets thrown at me, but I don't think that goes for the majority of players and I'm also a DM. Plenty of player-only people out there that probably never buy anything beyond the PHB, if even that. The Acquisitions Incorporated book is pretty much just for PA fans, and is largely produced by Penny Arcade as well. D&D vs Rick and Morty is a gag more than anything else. The Wildemount book is arguably the most generally useful for your average D&D player out of the non-WotC setting books, but that too was produced based on Critical Role's popularity and fame instead of broad appeal to Joe Q Player out there. I'm kind of baffled by the choice for two M:tG setting books (though I like Ravnica concept-wise at least, for an intrigue-heavy setting) before more old fan-favourite established D&D settings, but my impression at least is that the three non-WotC setting books aren't there instead of others - they're there in addition to the few WotC has been willing to commit to by themselves so far. If they really wanted to, they could have put out a generic Greyhawk book at least, or more Forgotten Realms setting books, or even a Dragonlance with the edges filed off. Seeing the product lineup, I'm fairly sure WotC doesn't think there's great money in (lots of) setting books.
Lots Setting books that cover a single setting sell well. (the Gazzateers were a practically a license to print money in the old 1e/2e days) Lots of setting books for multiple settings? Never works out well. (as more settings were released by TSR the smaller the market share for anyone of them became). FR consistently out sells (and has since 2e) all other settings by D&D. What D&D sells best though (and this only seems to work for a couple of systems in the hobby) is toolkit books.
I think D&D 5e will eventually make way for a version 6e. That said, this version is fun and has a lot of life left, and there continue to be good revenue possibilities for WOtC. For example, would love to see them develop rules addendums for SciFi/Tech, Westerns, Spies/Top Secret, Monster Hunter (Modern), Superhero, and possibly even a modern military/black ops or WWII genre. Each of these genres could be further tweaked by excluding magic or making magic very rare.
They can also go back and re-issue a new Players Handbook and DMs guide that fixes things that may be broken, maybe call it D&D 5.1e.
There are systems like Savage Worlds that do this well but on a smaller scale. They lend themselves to smaller episodic type games and don't always scale well for long-running campaigns. The DM and Players also have to invest in and learn a whole new system. I believe it would be more ideal to leverage the basics of the D&D mechanics and just add new rules for fire-arms, technology, vehicles, space travel, alien races, ....
They do that now it is called eratta and the Players Handbook published today is different then the first printing, the updated rules for stuff in Xanathars and Tashas are them doing the say 5.1 or 5.2 or what have you in my humble opinion. Also the wording on the eratta comment sounds Snarky but I don't mean it to, but at the moment the words elude me so please do not be insulted and if you are I apologize.
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
Yes! I feel like the average game of D&D at this point is just plain silly, and I feel like the prominence of streams (Critical Role seems like one of the more serious ones, and they do a lot of jokey stuff) is one of the reasons for it. It's just the prevalent culture at this point. I hope WotC knows there are still some of us out there who play serious campaigns...but given that they told me RotF would feel like The Shining or The Thing, and then gave me this, I'm starting to doubt it.
I've noticed this trend and it does my head in. Older editions had goofy stuff like mind flayer spaceships but a lot of D&D games now feel like I'm playing in some sort of sketch comedy world and it kills my immersion. Surely we could've gotten a few more grounded subclasses before we had the Astral Self Monk and Genie Patron Warlock planned for Tasha's? Can we get one low fantasy supplement, please? I can't remember the last time I encountered a bear. Like JUST a bear.
The core rules are a low fantasy game. Animals like bears and wolves are included. Treasure rewards seem really conservative and magic items really rare and expensive to make.
If your DM is starting you out against something other than 'Just a bear' that is on them, not on the game design.
I agree with your point about treasure and encounters, that's definitely more of a stylistic thing and I'm not blaming Wizards for that trend, even though I critique it. I wouldn't say the same for character creation being wildly superpowered, but that's not something I hate, I just wish there were a few more options.
As for his point on horror, I don't think adventuring games like D&D are great for it. You can do it but when your PCs can be a dragonborn or a tiefling it makes monsters a bit less remarkable. That's not a flaw, there are just better suited horror systems.
If you cannot run horror in a party that contains a Tiefling, I am not sure what to say. The are mortals with lower planes blood. They are custom made for horror campaigns.
And Dragonborn are considered one of the weakest races.
Horror is about suspense and the unknown. It has nothing to do with raw power and bypasses raw power, often redirecting that raw power through manipulation. Gore horror does not work so well, but horror generally? Definitely works. Stop thinking raw power and think subtle.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's not just about mechanical power. Horror is a very "human" genre. Hence a lot of horror protagonists are people like teenagers or women that society traditionally sees as somewhat vulnerable/sympathetic. Atmosphere-wise I find it hard to create suspense for my players if they're descended from dragons or creatures from the Nine Hells. Look at LOTR - the most horror like moments are usually when the Hobbits are separated from Gandalf, the paternal figure.
You need to read more science fiction. Most horror involves humans because it is normally set as occurring on Earth. The only thing preventing you from applying the same concepts to D&D are the limits you are placing on your own imagination.
Creatures from the Nine Hells.... you are kidding, right? You think that makes them immune to Hell's machinations? How about all the Vampire stories, which often include at least some aspects from the perspective of the vampire or deal with vampire society (eg. Lestat) or otherwise have a vampire main character (Buffy)?
Genres have two main components: the emotions and narrative devices they invoke, and the aesthetics associated with those tropes. Futurama has spaceships in it, but the series is really less about science and more of a workplace comedy. Likewise, the way RPGs like Horror-styled DnD or WoD play imo resembles supernatural action or drama more than being horror stories in the narrative sense. I would say something like CoC lends to more of a straight horror RPG experience. Just like clock tower plays different from Left 4 Dead.
I'm not going to continue this conversation much more because it's a bit off-topic. D&D is still good at lots of other things.
It's difficult to look at an entire book collection for a fourth time and think, "Yes, I'll buy all of this again and wait forever for my variety content to come out again." Those books are expensive. I expected full pull out maps, too.
I'd expect more of a gradual shift rather than a complete reboot. Maybe there will be a complete reboot someday, but there really isn't anything wrong with the base 5e system at the moment. Perhaps there will be a 5.5e players handbook where they tweak some spells and subclasses, make a few variant features baseline, etc. 5e isn't perfect, but it's easier than ever to just patch things piecemeal rather than reset the whole thing.
The only reason I'd say even this is on the horizon is because they've made it very clear they want to get away from racial ASIs, and the original races were definitely not designed with that in mind. I expect there will be something more comprehensive added to make all the older stuff consistent with their new vision.
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I don't see why not. Django Unchained and the Handmaid's Tale are two examples of modern media depicting slavery that the uh... Twitter crowd... didn't seem to mind. Because most people understand the basic concept that depicting a dystopia doesn't mean you support it.
Anyway, I'm trying not to get too political here. Because I know no matter what WotC do, they can't please everyone. Either they include more options to fit more diverse consumer wants, or people go back to older editions or different RPGs, or someone creates a new RPG to cater to disgruntled D&D players. It's not the end of the world.
I think the major difference is that this media is entirely focused on the issue of slavery and is able to carefully exam it with full weight placed on the issue. A DnD setting is much more open to interpretations and less able to carefully handle the subject with the respect it deserves. Its possible for sure and I can fully imagine a good group providing a very compelling narrative for it. Overall I would say you could run a Dark Sun yourself with little effort as is, but the way WotC has been insulating themselves from controversy I doubt it will happen. However, I could be wrong and I would be glad to be as I find the setting interesting.
To be perfectly honest (and controversial topics completely aside), with the amount of silly things WotC keeps adding to their media I've kinda started to doubt they'll really be able to pull off anything that's grim, gritty, and unforgiving; Rime of the Frostmaiden kept being billed as a horror experience, and gnome squidlings with laser pistols just...killed that for me...
Yes! I feel like the average game of D&D at this point is just plain silly, and I feel like the prominence of streams (Critical Role seems like one of the more serious ones, and they do a lot of jokey stuff) is one of the reasons for it. It's just the prevalent culture at this point. I hope WotC knows there are still some of us out there who play serious campaigns...but given that they told me RotF would feel like The Shining or The Thing, and then gave me this, I'm starting to doubt it.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
I definitely agree.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
I agree. I love the adventure still, but it was marketed as a dark, horror adventure, but it is more of a goofy adventure than horror, IMO. I think they could pull it off somehow with Dark Sun or Ravenloft, but I doubt it will be as grim as some would like.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Dungeons and Dragons, as an overall system, does not do 'Horror' well. Horror, at its core, is about disempowerment and ignorance. D&D characters, even at low levels, are replete with numerous broadly useful options for problem-solving and are able to gather information in any number of ways. One could 'disempower' PCs by utilizing enemies vastly too powerful to be defeated in combat, but a D&D PC is still generally able to affect the world itself in many useful ways. And eventually, your players will get pissed off if they're always one initiative roll away from a TPK in a game which is eighty percent combat engine.
Dark can be done. The world the PCs find themselves in can be grim, wretched, and cynically devoid of hope. This is much of the intent behind a 'points of light' setting, in fact - it's all civilization can do to keep the final few crumbling sparks of society alive in a world that relentlessly pushes towards their extinction. The Grim Hollow setting, as one example, accomplishes 'Dark' through deft deployment of classic horror tropes wile acknowledging that the tone of almost any campaign is going to be the PCs striving to make the world a better place - whether simply for themselves, for their community, for their nation, or even for all of Etharis.
Acknowledging this tendency, hard-coded into D&D in general and 5th Edition in particular, is key to creating a 'Horror' game that works. You cannot do Dead Space, Alien: Isolation, or any other disempowered classic-horror slog in this system as anything but a short one-shot or microadventure. Long campaigns will result in the players pushing back against the horror. Either they die in the attempt or they start scoring victories. The key is that in a truly dark setting, there is no Saving The World. Etharis is beyond salvation. Ravenloft/Barovia, Icewind Dale, all of these places - darkness' grip is too strong to be shaken by one band of adventurers. if you're good, you can save yourselves. If you're better, and a little lucky, you can save your loved ones and the community you call home. If you're a lot lucky, even more skilled, and push as hard as you can...you might inspire the next generation of heroes who will hold aloft the torch of your little point of light.
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I am not overtly familiar with Dark Sun but I think that this would be hard to accomplish with the setting as its bleak but also overtly horrible in its bleakness. Its like The Road level bleak where reality so harsh that you will likely have to do some messed up stuff to survive. This may include selling out your wizard as they are an Arcane caster and if caught might mean you have to let them die to save the rest of the party.
The setting just doesn't meld with the vibe of 5e.
I think that 5e has had legs due to the fact it doesn't go to the extremes too much with its official content...I do not think they will break that for Dark Sun as it just isn't that popular of a setting.
5e will likely continue to be down the middle and likely do better because of it.
I'm a bit doubtful about these potentially large revenue streams. How well do setting books sell, all told? How well would they sell if there was 8-9-10 of them? Particularly the ones that would be more extreme? I mean, I have a decent disposable income so I'll buy most of what gets thrown at me, but I don't think that goes for the majority of players and I'm also a DM. Plenty of player-only people out there that probably never buy anything beyond the PHB, if even that. The Acquisitions Incorporated book is pretty much just for PA fans, and is largely produced by Penny Arcade as well. D&D vs Rick and Morty is a gag more than anything else. The Wildemount book is arguably the most generally useful for your average D&D player out of the non-WotC setting books, but that too was produced based on Critical Role's popularity and fame instead of broad appeal to Joe Q Player out there. I'm kind of baffled by the choice for two M:tG setting books (though I like Ravnica concept-wise at least, for an intrigue-heavy setting) before more old fan-favourite established D&D settings, but my impression at least is that the three non-WotC setting books aren't there instead of others - they're there in addition to the few WotC has been willing to commit to by themselves so far. If they really wanted to, they could have put out a generic Greyhawk book at least, or more Forgotten Realms setting books, or even a Dragonlance with the edges filed off. Seeing the product lineup, I'm fairly sure WotC doesn't think there's great money in (lots of) setting books.
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I think D&D 5e will eventually make way for a version 6e. That said, this version is fun and has a lot of life left, and there continue to be good revenue possibilities for WOtC. For example, would love to see them develop rules addendums for SciFi/Tech, Westerns, Spies/Top Secret, Monster Hunter (Modern), Superhero, and possibly even a modern military/black ops or WWII genre. Each of these genres could be further tweaked by excluding magic or making magic very rare.
They can also go back and re-issue a new Players Handbook and DMs guide that fixes things that may be broken, maybe call it D&D 5.1e.
There are systems like Savage Worlds that do this well but on a smaller scale. They lend themselves to smaller episodic type games and don't always scale well for long-running campaigns. The DM and Players also have to invest in and learn a whole new system. I believe it would be more ideal to leverage the basics of the D&D mechanics and just add new rules for fire-arms, technology, vehicles, space travel, alien races, ....
Lots Setting books that cover a single setting sell well. (the Gazzateers were a practically a license to print money in the old 1e/2e days)
Lots of setting books for multiple settings? Never works out well. (as more settings were released by TSR the smaller the market share for anyone of them became).
FR consistently out sells (and has since 2e) all other settings by D&D.
What D&D sells best though (and this only seems to work for a couple of systems in the hobby) is toolkit books.
They do that now it is called eratta and the Players Handbook published today is different then the first printing, the updated rules for stuff in Xanathars and Tashas are them doing the say 5.1 or 5.2 or what have you in my humble opinion. Also the wording on the eratta comment sounds Snarky but I don't mean it to, but at the moment the words elude me so please do not be insulted and if you are I apologize.
I've noticed this trend and it does my head in. Older editions had goofy stuff like mind flayer spaceships but a lot of D&D games now feel like I'm playing in some sort of sketch comedy world and it kills my immersion. Surely we could've gotten a few more grounded subclasses before we had the Astral Self Monk and Genie Patron Warlock planned for Tasha's? Can we get one low fantasy supplement, please? I can't remember the last time I encountered a bear. Like JUST a bear.
I agree with your point about treasure and encounters, that's definitely more of a stylistic thing and I'm not blaming Wizards for that trend, even though I critique it. I wouldn't say the same for character creation being wildly superpowered, but that's not something I hate, I just wish there were a few more options.
As for his point on horror, I don't think adventuring games like D&D are great for it. You can do it but when your PCs can be a dragonborn or a tiefling it makes monsters a bit less remarkable. That's not a flaw, there are just better suited horror systems.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but it's not just about mechanical power. Horror is a very "human" genre. Hence a lot of horror protagonists are people like teenagers or women that society traditionally sees as somewhat vulnerable/sympathetic. Atmosphere-wise I find it hard to create suspense for my players if they're descended from dragons or creatures from the Nine Hells. Look at LOTR - the most horror like moments are usually when the Hobbits are separated from Gandalf, the paternal figure.
Genres have two main components: the emotions and narrative devices they invoke, and the aesthetics associated with those tropes. Futurama has spaceships in it, but the series is really less about science and more of a workplace comedy. Likewise, the way RPGs like Horror-styled DnD or WoD play imo resembles supernatural action or drama more than being horror stories in the narrative sense. I would say something like CoC lends to more of a straight horror RPG experience. Just like clock tower plays different from Left 4 Dead.
I'm not going to continue this conversation much more because it's a bit off-topic. D&D is still good at lots of other things.
Im so glad someone said this, if WotC is reading this, this forum post says it all.
They are not.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
It's difficult to look at an entire book collection for a fourth time and think, "Yes, I'll buy all of this again and wait forever for my variety content to come out again." Those books are expensive. I expected full pull out maps, too.
I'd expect more of a gradual shift rather than a complete reboot. Maybe there will be a complete reboot someday, but there really isn't anything wrong with the base 5e system at the moment. Perhaps there will be a 5.5e players handbook where they tweak some spells and subclasses, make a few variant features baseline, etc. 5e isn't perfect, but it's easier than ever to just patch things piecemeal rather than reset the whole thing.
The only reason I'd say even this is on the horizon is because they've made it very clear they want to get away from racial ASIs, and the original races were definitely not designed with that in mind. I expect there will be something more comprehensive added to make all the older stuff consistent with their new vision.