He’s really not. At higher levels the Dex-based fighter can’t match the AC, at low levels the heavy armor fighter can’t afford to match the AC and has to get his Str to 15, which (assuming stats arrays in a normal spectrum) means sacrificing abilities elsewhere. It’s not a wash.
He’s really not. At higher levels the Dex-based fighter can’t match the AC, at low levels the heavy armor fighter can’t afford to match the AC and has to get his Str to 15, which (assuming stats arrays in a normal spectrum) means sacrificing abilities elsewhere. It’s not a wash.
Not sure what you mean.
Level 1 human Mage-Armor Eldritch Knight (or Psi Warrior) has AC 17, after burning a feat to improve Intelligence for a modest +1 AC bonus. At level 4, the human then maxes out with an Int score 20, with a total AC 18. And that is it. It the Mage Armor cannot improve beyond that 18.
Oppositely, in most campaigns the plate armor Eldritch Knight will find magic plate armor, whose magical enhancement to AC might be +1, +2, or even +3 higher AC than the Mage Armor could achieve. Meanwhile, the armor might have additional magical features beyond the superior AC.
So, at the highest levels, the plate armor is superior to the Mage Armor.
The Str Fighter can dump both Int and Cha hard − even at 8. Both Str and Con can be 16s at level 1. Dex can be dumped at 10. Maybe, just maybe, Wis might be good for the Will save, while Perception is nice. The Strength Fighter is mainly Two-Ability-Dependent. Meanwhile either Dex or Wis can be a nice tertiary.
The Dex Fighter gets studded leather totaling 17, which is one less that plat or the max possible for Mage Armor. But investing in Dex comes with many other benefits that are useful for a Fighter. Meanwhile, by the time Dex reaches 20 at level 4 human, the Dex Fighter is likely to acquire magic studded leather.
The Dex Fighter is also Two-Ability-Dependent, Dex and Con. Meanwhile Wis is an attractive tertiary.
There are magical items to boost the AC of unarmored characters. Not being able to use magical armor is not a disadvantage if you can wear magical bracers or other items instead.
The Str Fighter can dump Int but then he won’t be casting very well with it, which is the whole point of your proposed fighting style. Same for the Dex Fighter. We’re not looking at this from the POV of just any warrior, we’re looking at this assuming we’re creating Mage Knights.
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Monks depend on Dex, Wis, and Con. Paladins depend on Str/Dex, Con, and Cha. Rangers depend on Str/Dex, Con, and Wis. Eldritch Knights need Dex/Str, Con, and Int.
It's a balancing factor. Combining the high hit dice of fighters, paladins, and rangers with magical power, it is a matter of balance that they depend on multiple ability scores.
M-A-D isnt a balance factor. Sometimes it is tradition. Sometimes it is unintended consequences.
For example, nobody thinks the Ranger needs to be balance by M-A-D.
It is a balance factor. Paladins would be way OP if all of them (not just hexblade-dippers) could use Charisma for their weapon attack and damage rolls.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Like other Fighters, the Mage Armor Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent.
The tertiary can be anything: Dex to improve reflex save and stealth, Wis to improve will save and perception, Cha to improve social challenges.
I am open to encouraging Str as a tertiary, but it would only be for the sake of muscular flavor.
Correction: unlike other Mage Knights, the Mage Armor Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent. The others have Int concerns beyond the tertiary ones the MAF has.
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Like other Fighters, the Mage Armor Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent.
The tertiary can be anything: Dex to improve reflex save and stealth, Wis to improve will save and perception, Cha to improve social challenges.
I am open to encouraging Str as a tertiary, but it would only be for the sake of muscular flavor.
Rogues are two ability score dependent. Are you going to make the Arcane Trickster do all of this stuff, too?
I dont view Rogue as a heavy armor defender tank concept. But it would be nice to have something magical at level 1. Probably the way to go would be a class feature swap at level 1. But what that might be is beyond the scope of this thread.
Monks depend on Dex, Wis, and Con. Paladins depend on Str/Dex, Con, and Cha. Rangers depend on Str/Dex, Con, and Wis. Eldritch Knights need Dex/Str, Con, and Int.
It's a balancing factor. Combining the high hit dice of fighters, paladins, and rangers with magical power, it is a matter of balance that they depend on multiple ability scores.
M-A-D isnt a balance factor. Sometimes it is tradition. Sometimes it is unintended consequences.
For example, nobody thinks the Ranger needs to be balance by M-A-D.
It is a balance factor. Paladins would be way OP if all of them (not just hexblade-dippers) could use Charisma for their weapon attack and damage rolls.
Also that would be stupid. "...You are so handsome and well spoken that your enemy bows before you and allows you to sever his head..."
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“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
There are magical items to boost the AC of unarmored characters. Not being able to use magical armor is not a disadvantage if you can wear magical bracers or other items instead.
An unarmored Fighter can wear Bracers of Defense, but this requires attunement. The Fighter with magical plate armor already has the better AC and can now use the attunement for something else that is valuable beyond the AC.
The plate armor remains better, even if taking magic items into consideration.
There are magical items to boost the AC of unarmored characters. Not being able to use magical armor is not a disadvantage if you can wear magical bracers or other items instead.
An unarmored Fighter can wear Bracers of Defense, but this requires attunement. The Fighter with magical plate armor already has the better AC and can now use the attunement for something else that is valuable beyond the AC.
The plate armor remains better, even if taking magic items into consideration.
Sure, like something to boost his abysmal Dex save, stealthiness or initiative or provide an effective ranged combat option. It’s not like that magical plate doesn’t come with downsides. Whether the plate is better is pretty circumstantial. Characters can also be attuned to three items at the same time.
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He’s really not. At higher levels the Dex-based fighter can’t match the AC, at low levels the heavy armor fighter can’t afford to match the AC and has to get his Str to 15, which (assuming stats arrays in a normal spectrum) means sacrificing abilities elsewhere. It’s not a wash.
I guess I should have put a bigger emphasis on sorta.
It is a balance factor. Paladins would be way OP if all of them (not just hexblade-dippers) could use Charisma for their weapon attack and damage rolls.
Also that would be stupid. "...You are so handsome and well spoken that your enemy bows before you and allows you to sever his head..."
Well, to go slightly off track, charisma is probably the most misnomer of the stats. CHR is clearly not just social charms. Social charms can be an expression of CHR; but really if you look at all the skills and modes of spellcasting bound to CHR, it becomes apparent that CHR is really more "will" than magnetic social graces. Contrary to what I'd call a lot of naive play, a Warlock's pacts aren't acquired through a seduction or charming of their patron, the magic is granted because the warlock drove a bargain for it, more a pushing of ego than sycophancy. Sorcerer's manifest magic through a similar drive to master the energy within them. So a paladin driving with CHR isn't so off base. Honestly, I'd put it over WIS and right even with INT for various hypothetical bases for psionics.
There are magical items to boost the AC of unarmored characters. Not being able to use magical armor is not a disadvantage if you can wear magical bracers or other items instead.
An unarmored Fighter can wear Bracers of Defense, but this requires attunement. The Fighter with magical plate armor already has the better AC and can now use the attunement for something else that is valuable beyond the AC.
The plate armor remains better, even if taking magic items into consideration.
We're still Monty Hauling gear to make the mage armor fighter balanced. Again, there's a perfectly in current mechanics way to give your fighter that tweak; but you end run around that to stick with your original idea requires the game's handling of magical items scarcity in a much more generous Monty Haul fashion that the game guidance generally provides for, all to address an inadequacy you insist is there that's barely acknowledged by your discussants. There's nothing wrong with Monty Hauling and supercharging characters, but it's an explicitly overpowered play style. If you see an ability score that's poorly utilized at level one, wait to you get to that Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. The game is played in increments after all, it's why we have levels, to develop potential.
Are you playing or DMing this character? Or is this just a chalkboard exercise?
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
We're still Monty Hauling gear to make the mage armor fighter balanced. Again, there's a perfectly in current mechanics way to give your fighter that tweak; but you end run around that to stick with your original idea requires the game's handling of magical items scarcity in a much more generous Monty Haul fashion that the game guidance generally provides for, all to address an inadequacy you insist is there that's barely acknowledged by your discussants. There's nothing wrong with Monty Hauling and supercharging characters, but it's an explicitly overpowered play style. If you see an ability score that's poorly utilized at level one, wait to you get to that Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. The game is played in increments after all, it's why we have levels, to develop potential.
Are you playing or DMing this character? Or is this just a chalkboard exercise?
The accusation of "Monty Hauling" is inaccurate in numerous ways.
One, I never brought up the issue of magic items. I responded to other posters who brought up magic items.
Two, I personally dislike dependence on magic items. I am grateful that 5e adopted attunement.
Three, in my campaign, magic items are few and far between, and only at higher levels. Official adventures give away too many powerful magic items, for my taste.
Four, magic items are irrelevant to gaming balance. Magic items are extras that make a character better, that a DM must actively balance against if introduce them.
Five, designing a character class requires balancing with other options, other subclasses, and other classes.
Six, the Mage Armor swap is balanced in its own right, because in the choice between either plate armor or Mage Armor, the plate armor remains slightly better.
Are you playing or DMing this character? Or is this just a chalkboard exercise?
All three, really. Currently I am DMing. One of the players is considering an Eldritch Knight. Theoretical mastery of gaming mechanics is useful in its own right. I like the Psi Warrior, and will probably play it in the near future, and might consider Mage Armor for the sake of force flavor.
and might consider Mage Armor for the sake of force flavor.
Jedi actually used to wear armour in the Old Republic. They dropped it ans swithed to robes for PR reasons rather than some noble tradition - it's kind of hard to convince people you're guardians of peace when you stroll around in beskar plate.
We're still Monty Hauling gear to make the mage armor fighter balanced. Again, there's a perfectly in current mechanics way to give your fighter that tweak; but you end run around that to stick with your original idea requires the game's handling of magical items scarcity in a much more generous Monty Haul fashion that the game guidance generally provides for, all to address an inadequacy you insist is there that's barely acknowledged by your discussants. There's nothing wrong with Monty Hauling and supercharging characters, but it's an explicitly overpowered play style. If you see an ability score that's poorly utilized at level one, wait to you get to that Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. The game is played in increments after all, it's why we have levels, to develop potential.
Are you playing or DMing this character? Or is this just a chalkboard exercise?
The accusation of "Monty Hauling" is inaccurate in numerous ways.
One, I never brought up the issue of magic items. I responded to other posters who brought up magic items.
Two, I personally dislike dependence on magic items. I am grateful that 5e adopted attunement.
Three, in my campaign, magic items are few and far between, and only at higher levels. Official adventures give away too many powerful magic items, for my taste.
Four, magic items are irrelevant to gaming balance. Magic items are extras that make a character better, that a DM must actively balance against if introduce them.
Five, designing a character class requires balancing with other options, other subclasses, and other classes.
Six, the Mage Armor swap is balanced in its own right, because in the choice between either plate armor or Mage Armor, the plate armor remains slightly better.
You've written quite a lot here, and I'm not referring to this particular post when I write that. The Monty Haulism was levied initially when you started using "plate's superior to mage armor" in your defense in the first place. The rebuttal was essentially "who gets plate at level one". Your rejoinder was "my group patron grants it to them." So your supporting your higher than appropriate buff up of a first level build by performing another DM intervention to bring other characters to scale, because the character generation system puts them at an off footing against your equivalents of Jedi who learned to Vader style deflect blaster bolts at the "Luke, this is your father's lightsaber" stage of the game. Mind you, all this was initially presented as a problem to fix what you felt was story weakness (low level potentials for Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior not exhibiting any "zap" effects until level 3 outside of Elves and Gith type lineage traits or, ahem, variants using adept feats ... that's the oddest thing about all this is forcing something that is easily accommodated in RAW), you claim that this is about one of the classic Gish meta rule problems of D&D didn't come until you were faced with a consensus thinking your solution was problematically over powered.
In your game, allowing a fighter to magically at will don an AC that puts a non magically endowed (and non DM intervened) fighter into the realms of encumbrance challenges (which I know you ignore) and stealth disadvantage (which you just ignored when I brought it up) is balanced. But it's only balanced because you're thumbing the scale and granting other hypothetical PCs options such as patron issued plate etc. There's really nothing wrong in the grand scheme in playing a style that grants more capacity to PCs than the RAW. A lot of 5e boosted the power base of 1st level characters, particularly spell casters, beyond earlier editions in order to greater enable PCs to entertain their players with what they "can do" as opposed to "may do (if they live)." But Mage Armor swapping out the more burdensome, so to speak, armor proficiencies AND give them some combat cantrips in session 0 for a fighting style? I don't think you've converted the consensus of the "that's a bit much" camp because to spectrum of a variety of play styles, it's a bit much. Especially given your initial story issue is actually taken care of with the race's most associated with things Gish, EK + PsiWar, elves and Gith, have the starter magic/psychics that make the 3rd level leap more logical, and variant lineage construction grants you the ability to make your character an adept toward martial magic in much more balanced fashion than your proposed fighting style.
TL;DR you have in your precepts #5. You're not doing that here. Other commentators have shown you how your "but Warlock claim" is refuted precisely by the level of thought that should go into #5 of your precepts.
You've written quite a lot here, and I'm not referring to this particular post when I write that. The Monty Haulism was levied initially when you started using "plate's superior to mage armor" in your defense in the first place. The rebuttal was essentially "who gets plate at level one". Your rejoinder was "my group patron grants it to them." So your supporting your higher than appropriate buff up of a first level build by performing another DM intervention to bring other characters to scale, because the character generation system puts them at an off footing against your equivalents of Jedi who learned to Vader style deflect blaster bolts at the "Luke, this is your father's lightsaber" stage of the game. Mind you, all this was initially presented as a problem to fix what you felt was story weakness (low level potentials for Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior not exhibiting any "zap" effects until level 3 outside of Elves and Gith type lineage traits or, ahem, variants using adept feats ... that's the oddest thing about all this is forcing something that is easily accommodated in RAW), you claim that this is about one of the classic Gish meta rule problems of D&D didn't come until you were faced with a consensus thinking your solution was problematically over powered.
In your game, allowing a fighter to magically at will don an AC that puts a non magically endowed (and non DM intervened) fighter into the realms of encumbrance challenges (which I know you ignore) and stealth disadvantage (which you just ignored when I brought it up) is balanced. But it's only balanced because you're thumbing the scale and granting other hypothetical PCs options such as patron issued plate etc. There's really nothing wrong in the grand scheme in playing a style that grants more capacity to PCs than the RAW. A lot of 5e boosted the power base of 1st level characters, particularly spell casters, beyond earlier editions in order to greater enable PCs to entertain their players with what they "can do" as opposed to "may do (if they live)." But Mage Armor swapping out the more burdensome, so to speak, armor proficiencies AND give them some combat cantrips in session 0 for a fighting style? I don't think you've converted the consensus of the "that's a bit much" camp because to spectrum of a variety of play styles, it's a bit much. Especially given your initial story issue is actually taken care of with the race's most associated with things Gish, EK + PsiWar, elves and Gith, have the starter magic/psychics that make the 3rd level leap more logical, and variant lineage construction grants you the ability to make your character an adept toward martial magic in much more balanced fashion than your proposed fighting style.
TL;DR you have in your precepts #5. You're not doing that here. Other commentators have shown you how your "but Warlock claim" is refuted precisely by the level of thought that should go into #5 of your precepts.
I mentioned plate armor. My point is, this is standard equipment that becomes available at the lowest levels, that a Strength Fighter can expect in most campaign settings. Forumers objected that plate armor isnt available during character creation, I later pointed out that chainmail is available during character creation. Thus Strength chainmail armor 16 AC is exactly equal to the Intelligence Mage Armor 16 AC. Thus, there is no Monty Haul. The creation of a Strength Fighter already comes with AC 16. The Mage Armor swap is balanced during character creation.
The plate armor Fighter sucks at stealth. The response that I gave was that the Mage Armor Fighter wont be so great at it either, "mediocre".
Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
You’re simplifying too much, and ignoring any potential synergies that make the total package better than the sum of its parts like you’ve ignored pretty much any argument about attribute dependency. Even separate, both of these are qualities that already exist in the game in comparable form and neither is available at lvl 1. Put them together and they become even better, because they complement each other. A Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is not necessarily considered balanced. Spending a feat on a Fighting Style is not considered overpowered, but that’s not the same thing. Again, oversimplification. But this is going on 4 pages now, I think my 5 cents worth was done 3 pages ago and nothing’s moved the needle since. I’ll agree to disagree and move on.
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Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
You’re simplifying too much, and ignoring any potential synergies that make the total package better than the sum of its parts like you’ve ignored pretty much any argument about attribute dependency. Even separate, both of these are qualities that already exist in the game in comparable form and neither is available at lvl 1. Put them together and they become even better, because they complement each other. A Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is not necessarily considered balanced. Spending a feat on a Fighting Style is not considered overpowered, but that’s not the same thing. Again, oversimplification. But this is going on 4 pages now, I think my 5 cents worth was done 3 pages ago and nothing’s moved the needle since. I’ll agree to disagree and move on.
Wizard spells synergize less well with martial weapons. The dissonance is one of the reasons a gish has been difficult to do in D&D history.
Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
You’re simplifying too much, and ignoring any potential synergies that make the total package better than the sum of its parts like you’ve ignored pretty much any argument about attribute dependency. Even separate, both of these are qualities that already exist in the game in comparable form and neither is available at lvl 1. Put them together and they become even better, because they complement each other. A Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is not necessarily considered balanced. Spending a feat on a Fighting Style is not considered overpowered, but that’s not the same thing. Again, oversimplification. But this is going on 4 pages now, I think my 5 cents worth was done 3 pages ago and nothing’s moved the needle since. I’ll agree to disagree and move on.
Wizard spells synergize less well with martial weapons. The dissonance is one of the reasons a gish has been difficult to do in D&D history.
I shouldn't get pulled back in, but:
a) what does that even mean?
and b) how is that in any way an argument against your homebrewed fighting style being overpowered?
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There are magical items to boost the AC of unarmored characters. Not being able to use magical armor is not a disadvantage if you can wear magical bracers or other items instead.
The Str Fighter can dump Int but then he won’t be casting very well with it, which is the whole point of your proposed fighting style. Same for the Dex Fighter. We’re not looking at this from the POV of just any warrior, we’re looking at this assuming we’re creating Mage Knights.
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It is a balance factor. Paladins would be way OP if all of them (not just hexblade-dippers) could use Charisma for their weapon attack and damage rolls.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Like other Fighters, the Mage Armor Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent.
The tertiary can be anything: Dex to improve reflex save and stealth, Wis to improve will save and perception, Cha to improve social challenges.
I am open to encouraging Str as a tertiary, but it would only be for the sake of muscular flavor.
he / him
Correction: unlike other Mage Knights, the Mage Armor Fighter is Two-Ability-Dependent. The others have Int concerns beyond the tertiary ones the MAF has.
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Rogues are two ability score dependent. Are you going to make the Arcane Trickster do all of this stuff, too?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I dont view Rogue as a heavy armor defender tank concept. But it would be nice to have something magical at level 1. Probably the way to go would be a class feature swap at level 1. But what that might be is beyond the scope of this thread.
he / him
Also that would be stupid. "...You are so handsome and well spoken that your enemy bows before you and allows you to sever his head..."
“I will take responsibility for what I have done. [...] If must fall, I will rise each time a better man.” ― Brandon Sanderson, Oathbringer.
An unarmored Fighter can wear Bracers of Defense, but this requires attunement. The Fighter with magical plate armor already has the better AC and can now use the attunement for something else that is valuable beyond the AC.
The plate armor remains better, even if taking magic items into consideration.
he / him
Sure, like something to boost his abysmal Dex save, stealthiness or initiative or provide an effective ranged combat option. It’s not like that magical plate doesn’t come with downsides. Whether the plate is better is pretty circumstantial. Characters can also be attuned to three items at the same time.
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I guess I should have put a bigger emphasis on sorta.
Well, to go slightly off track, charisma is probably the most misnomer of the stats. CHR is clearly not just social charms. Social charms can be an expression of CHR; but really if you look at all the skills and modes of spellcasting bound to CHR, it becomes apparent that CHR is really more "will" than magnetic social graces. Contrary to what I'd call a lot of naive play, a Warlock's pacts aren't acquired through a seduction or charming of their patron, the magic is granted because the warlock drove a bargain for it, more a pushing of ego than sycophancy. Sorcerer's manifest magic through a similar drive to master the energy within them. So a paladin driving with CHR isn't so off base. Honestly, I'd put it over WIS and right even with INT for various hypothetical bases for psionics.
We're still Monty Hauling gear to make the mage armor fighter balanced. Again, there's a perfectly in current mechanics way to give your fighter that tweak; but you end run around that to stick with your original idea requires the game's handling of magical items scarcity in a much more generous Monty Haul fashion that the game guidance generally provides for, all to address an inadequacy you insist is there that's barely acknowledged by your discussants. There's nothing wrong with Monty Hauling and supercharging characters, but it's an explicitly overpowered play style. If you see an ability score that's poorly utilized at level one, wait to you get to that Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior. The game is played in increments after all, it's why we have levels, to develop potential.
Are you playing or DMing this character? Or is this just a chalkboard exercise?
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
The accusation of "Monty Hauling" is inaccurate in numerous ways.
One, I never brought up the issue of magic items. I responded to other posters who brought up magic items.
Two, I personally dislike dependence on magic items. I am grateful that 5e adopted attunement.
Three, in my campaign, magic items are few and far between, and only at higher levels. Official adventures give away too many powerful magic items, for my taste.
Four, magic items are irrelevant to gaming balance. Magic items are extras that make a character better, that a DM must actively balance against if introduce them.
Five, designing a character class requires balancing with other options, other subclasses, and other classes.
Six, the Mage Armor swap is balanced in its own right, because in the choice between either plate armor or Mage Armor, the plate armor remains slightly better.
he / him
All three, really. Currently I am DMing. One of the players is considering an Eldritch Knight. Theoretical mastery of gaming mechanics is useful in its own right. I like the Psi Warrior, and will probably play it in the near future, and might consider Mage Armor for the sake of force flavor.
he / him
Jedi actually used to wear armour in the Old Republic. They dropped it ans swithed to robes for PR reasons rather than some noble tradition - it's kind of hard to convince people you're guardians of peace when you stroll around in beskar plate.
You've written quite a lot here, and I'm not referring to this particular post when I write that. The Monty Haulism was levied initially when you started using "plate's superior to mage armor" in your defense in the first place. The rebuttal was essentially "who gets plate at level one". Your rejoinder was "my group patron grants it to them." So your supporting your higher than appropriate buff up of a first level build by performing another DM intervention to bring other characters to scale, because the character generation system puts them at an off footing against your equivalents of Jedi who learned to Vader style deflect blaster bolts at the "Luke, this is your father's lightsaber" stage of the game. Mind you, all this was initially presented as a problem to fix what you felt was story weakness (low level potentials for Eldritch Knight or Psi Warrior not exhibiting any "zap" effects until level 3 outside of Elves and Gith type lineage traits or, ahem, variants using adept feats ... that's the oddest thing about all this is forcing something that is easily accommodated in RAW), you claim that this is about one of the classic Gish meta rule problems of D&D didn't come until you were faced with a consensus thinking your solution was problematically over powered.
In your game, allowing a fighter to magically at will don an AC that puts a non magically endowed (and non DM intervened) fighter into the realms of encumbrance challenges (which I know you ignore) and stealth disadvantage (which you just ignored when I brought it up) is balanced. But it's only balanced because you're thumbing the scale and granting other hypothetical PCs options such as patron issued plate etc. There's really nothing wrong in the grand scheme in playing a style that grants more capacity to PCs than the RAW. A lot of 5e boosted the power base of 1st level characters, particularly spell casters, beyond earlier editions in order to greater enable PCs to entertain their players with what they "can do" as opposed to "may do (if they live)." But Mage Armor swapping out the more burdensome, so to speak, armor proficiencies AND give them some combat cantrips in session 0 for a fighting style? I don't think you've converted the consensus of the "that's a bit much" camp because to spectrum of a variety of play styles, it's a bit much. Especially given your initial story issue is actually taken care of with the race's most associated with things Gish, EK + PsiWar, elves and Gith, have the starter magic/psychics that make the 3rd level leap more logical, and variant lineage construction grants you the ability to make your character an adept toward martial magic in much more balanced fashion than your proposed fighting style.
TL;DR you have in your precepts #5. You're not doing that here. Other commentators have shown you how your "but Warlock claim" is refuted precisely by the level of thought that should go into #5 of your precepts.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I mentioned plate armor. My point is, this is standard equipment that becomes available at the lowest levels, that a Strength Fighter can expect in most campaign settings. Forumers objected that plate armor isnt available during character creation, I later pointed out that chainmail is available during character creation. Thus Strength chainmail armor 16 AC is exactly equal to the Intelligence Mage Armor 16 AC. Thus, there is no Monty Haul. The creation of a Strength Fighter already comes with AC 16. The Mage Armor swap is balanced during character creation.
The plate armor Fighter sucks at stealth. The response that I gave was that the Mage Armor Fighter wont be so great at it either, "mediocre".
he / him
Regarding the mechanics of the Mage Armor Fighting Style. Split it into two separate discussions.
Feature Swap. You swap out proficiency with Medium and Heavy armor (worth about a feat), and instead gain Mage Armor (worth about a feat).
Fighting Style. You gain one cantrip. You can substitute Intelligence for weapon attacks and damage, instead of Strength and Dexterity.
Now, according to Tashas, the Fighting Initiate feat grants you one Fighting Style of your choice. Now the actual Fighting Styles available in the Players Handbook and Tashas are wildly unequal in value. A couple seem worth a feat, but a couple seem worth less than a halffeat. In any case, a Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is considered balanced.
Is substituting Intelligence for weapon, plus one cantrip, worth a feat? Probably. And it is probably one of the less powerful feats.
he / him
You’re simplifying too much, and ignoring any potential synergies that make the total package better than the sum of its parts like you’ve ignored pretty much any argument about attribute dependency. Even separate, both of these are qualities that already exist in the game in comparable form and neither is available at lvl 1. Put them together and they become even better, because they complement each other. A Fighting Style that is equal to a feat is not necessarily considered balanced. Spending a feat on a Fighting Style is not considered overpowered, but that’s not the same thing. Again, oversimplification. But this is going on 4 pages now, I think my 5 cents worth was done 3 pages ago and nothing’s moved the needle since. I’ll agree to disagree and move on.
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Wizard spells synergize less well with martial weapons. The dissonance is one of the reasons a gish has been difficult to do in D&D history.
he / him
I shouldn't get pulled back in, but:
a) what does that even mean?
and b) how is that in any way an argument against your homebrewed fighting style being overpowered?
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