One of my hobbies when I'm about to start a new campaign is to look at online guides ranking the core classes (which now include the artificer). However, I've sort of run out of those... so I figured I'll make my own.
I've written a bit of info about each class, starting with suggested roles in the party. At the end of each description, I will include a rank, from D to S (D, C, B, A, S, with S being the best and D the worst).
Artificer: Support, defender (battle smith), frontliner (armorer), blaster (artillerist, mostly), handyman. Artificers do support different from other classes, functioning mostly on items rather than buffs and heals. Each archetype has its own favored style, with alchemists leaning into the support role, armorers being a frontliner, artillerists being a blaster, and battle smiths being a defender. Battle smith actually reminds me of the improved beastmaster, although their companion operates on a different action economy than the beastmaster. One thing I like about the artificer is that even when they pick their niche, they are still incredibly versatile, and can adapt to almost any situation. When you play an artificer, remember: sharing is caring. Don't hog all the infusions for things like homunculus servant. Instead, infuse your party members items, and keep one or two for yourself. The artificer is meant to be a team player, even if they are very self-sufficient. Rank: A
Barbarian: Defender (spirit guardian archetype fits this best), Tank. Barbarians are excellent in combat, but outside of it, they have very few skills. They have a decent list of skills, amplified by the optional class features from TCoE, but other than that, they can't do much... they're not exactly sneaky, and often have low charisma and/or intelligence. However, with their high hit die and good natural armor, they make a solid tank or frontliner. Rank: C
Bard: Support, Frontliner (valor and swords only), Face. Bards have a great list of spells, including a whole lot of excellent buffs, debuffs, and control spells. With charisma as their primary ability, and a good list of social skills, they make an excellent party face as well. However, without a subclass like valor or swords which grants more martial abilities, they don't have much offensive power themselves. Rank: A
Cleric: Support, Frontliner, Blaster. Clerics are an interesting class. They have a huge list of subclasses, second only to wizards, and get a variety of good weapon and armor proficiencies from these archetypes. They also have a decent amount of offense spells, with some OP exclusives like guiding bolt. The main role people usually choose for them is healer, which makes sense, especially if you play a life cleric. Most of their archetypes give heavy armor proficiency, allowing them to stay alive longer. Rank: S
Druid: Support, Handyman, Scout. Druids have great flavor, and some good class features. Their spell list is nice too, with some good exclusives like storm of vengeance, moonbeam, and healing spirit (which has now been nerfed). The thing that people remember about them is wildshape, an excellent feature which allows them to morph into a beast (or an elemental for moon druids, or a weird fungi guy with spores). Wildshape typically isn't useful in combat, but out of combat, it's pretty great. It's excellent for disguise and mobility, allowing them to be good scouts. If you're a moon druid, you can also morph into elementals, or higher CR beasts, allowing you to make a more effective combatant. It's also worth mentioning that they have decent martial skills, with some good finnesse weapons, light and medium armor, and shields. Rank: B
Fighter: Any martial role, Blaster (eldritch knight only). Fighters are pretty straightforward: weapons. They excel in combat, getting more attack than anyone except for monks. They also have proficiency in every weapon and armor type in the game, although they're somewhat lacking in skills. The eldritch knight archetype adds a bit more versatility, giving you some handy utility spells from the wizard spell list, as well as some more blasty spells like fireball. Rank: A
Monk: Striker, Scout, Sneak. Monks are notoriously MAD (multiple ability dependent), although they do have their fair share of good abilities. They have the martial arts feature, which gives their unarmed strikes better damage, and essentially gives you the two-weapon fighting style. They also have the flurry of blows, which allows them to take two extra attacks as a bonus action. They also have extra speed, immunity to old age, the ability to walk along walls and water, and proficiency in all saving throws, at higher levels. Monks are extremely powerful, but they take a while to become that way. Rank: A
Paladin: Striker, Support, Tank, Defender. Paladins, although they are slightly MAD, are undeniably powerful. 5 levels of spells, divine smite for massive damage, and some cazy powerful auras- these guys have everything, magic-wise, plus martial abilities nearly as good as the fighter. Rank: S
Ranger: Scout, Sneak, Striker, Archer. Recently, rangers got an update. TCoE fixed a lot of the class features that made rangers weak... now, they're at least a bit better. They have some handy utility spells and abilities, some good combat abilities, and an excellent amount of disguise and stealth abilities. They still have a few flaws, mainly that they tend to be a bit niche still, but all in all, they're a good pick. Rank: A
Rogue: Sneak, Handyman, Scout, Control (arcane trickster only) Rogues are pretty cool. They're a bit weak in combat, but they have a bunch of utility, especially with the arcane trickster subclass. I find some of their features lacking, but I would still play one. Rank: B
Sorcerer: Blaster, Face. I never liked sorcerers. They only know 15 spells, and have to wait until they gain a level to switch them out. And even then, they can only switch out one at a time. This makes them incredibly niche... in fact, not niche, stuck. They pick their type and they're left with it till level 20. Some of their subclasses ease the pain a bit, giving them access to cleric or wizard spells as well, but it doesn't really help. They do have metamagic, but most of those options are easily granted by other features from different classes. Rank: D
Warlock: Blaster, Control, Support (celestial), frontliner (hexblade). Warlocks are weird. They cast spells differently from every other class in the game, but they have some really good cantrips... namely, eldritch blast. They also have invocations, which can come in handy with some nice disguise, control, and offensive options. Each patron also changes the way they function, with things like genie and fiend making them blasters, hexblade making them a frontliner, and celestial making them a support character. Rank: B
Wizard: Blaster, Handyman, Control. I'm just gonna get this out of the way... wizards are my favorite. They're extremely versatile, with the longest spell list in the game. They don't get very many class features (one every other level), but they have some great subclasses, like the order of scribes and the abjurer. Wizards stand out from other classes just because of sheer versatility. Rank: S
Some hot takes in here. I appreciate the thought and work you put into this, but I find it really hard to rank classes in a practical way because there are so many variables in play. I know some players that are more effective at warlock than paladin, for example. But it can be helpful to rank maximum potential, which I presume this is going for.
You talk about the Ranger updates... but not the Sorcerer ones? Especially now that sorcerer subclasses are getting massive amount of spells and spell list access?
Rating Bard down because it prefers Save or Die/Suck spells over damage? And yet... you rate druid lower than bard? Why? Not that I'm disagreeing with your ranking, but you don't give a single downside to the druid class, yet rate it worse than both cleric and bard, both of whom you point out flaws.
Both Fighter and Barbarians are low on skills and the like, but you rate barbarian far worse than fighter, only quoting Eldritch Knight as a redeeming feature. Is that your favorite? And are you bumping up Fighter a grade as a result?
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your ranking, but I just feel like a couple of your explanations are a bit strange.
the reason fighter is higher than barbarian is because of the number of attacks. fighter gets four, or three if you take a class dip for something else. barbarians get two. barbarians, in my opinion, make great class dips. just like warlocks, actually. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels barbarian gets you 3 attacks, rage, action surge, brutal critical, and a whole lot of other stuff. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels warlock gets you 5 invocations, 3 attacks, pact of the chain or tome (since blade is redundant here), spells, with 3 pact slots, and fighter stuff. That's not to say warlocks are good on their own, they're great. Barbarians are excellent for a combat campaign, too. Just that combat is all they're good at, really. And sorcerers are still good, but what's the point of having two or three spell lists to choose from if you only know 15 spells, and can only switch them out when you gain a level? I just don't like sorcerers because, like I said, they get stuck in a rut.
the reason fighter is higher than barbarian is because of the number of attacks. fighter gets four, or three if you take a class dip for something else. barbarians get two. barbarians, in my opinion, make great class dips. just like warlocks, actually. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels barbarian gets you 3 attacks, rage, action surge, brutal critical, and a whole lot of other stuff. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels warlock gets you 5 invocations, 3 attacks, pact of the chain or tome (since blade is redundant here), spells, with 3 pact slots, and fighter stuff. That's not to say warlocks are good on their own, they're great. Barbarians are excellent for a combat campaign, too. Just that combat is all they're good at, really. And sorcerers are still good, but what's the point of having two or three spell lists to choose from if you only know 15 spells, and can only switch them out when you gain a level? I just don't like sorcerers because, like I said, they get stuck in a rut.
With all due respect, you don't exactly make that bit on the Fighters clear. As for Barbarians only being good for combat.... That's not really true. Between their trap sense and the ability to use Rage to buff themselves with difficult Strength-based checks (forcing doors, jumps, etc), barbarians are actually pretty good at Exploration feats.
The new sorcerer subclasses in Tasha's actually grant them an additional 10 spells known, plus the ability to swap them out. Same with the Ranger ones - more spells known everywhere.
Sorcerers are “still good”, but are the one class getting a D rank? While “still flawed, but all in all a good pick” Rangers get an A? I get that you have an opinion, but that doesn’t seem like an objective evaluation. Monks being in a higher tier than Rogues, Druids and Warlocks is a little questionable too - Monks are pretty much the definition of mediocre for me.
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monks get proficiency in every saving throw, can speak any laguage, don't suffer old age, can make 4 attacks on a turn for the cost of 1 ki point (or three without the ki point), can cast astral projection without material components, can have a speed of up to 60 feet (average), and can walk on water and walls. Plus, open palm monks can insta-kill things every other round. Definitely an S class.
monks get proficiency in every saving throw, can speak any laguage, don't suffer old age, can make 4 attacks on a turn for the cost of 1 ki point (or three without the ki point), can cast astral projection without material components, can have a speed of up to 60 feet (average), and can walk on water and walls. Plus, open palm monks can insta-kill things every other round. Definitely an S class.
Definitely an S-class, which you ranked A. ;)
But let’s see: Diamond Body is great, no doubt, but it’s lvl 14 - that’s when Clerics get to Resurrect dead people, to put it in context; old age being a threat to adventurers is beyond rare, not needing food or water is arguably the better part of Timeless Body, and that’s at 15th lvl; Tongue of the Sun and Moon is awesome; lots of attacks is good, but ki runs out fast and other warrior classes with fewer attacks typically get stronger ones; Astral Projection for 8 ki points at 18th level is almost half your ki reserve, and you can’t take anyone with you so chances are someone else might just have to cast it anyway at which point the Monk’s ability becomes useless; Unarmored Movement is great; walking on water and walls at lvl 9 is less impressive when you realize Fly is a 3rd lvl spell; Quivering Palm is essentially a Con-based save-or-die effect that requires a successful attack roll at lvl 18 - Sorcerers have been casting save-or-die spells for a long time by then, and they’ll have options for likely harder to saves to succeed.
Honestly, 7th level Evasion and Stillness of Mind are more useful than half what you listed and at least come into play at a level that a lot of campaigns effectively reach.
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the part of astral projection that is really useful with monks is it ignore material components- helpful because I wouldn't want to have to spend 1,300 gp to take my party into the astral plane. For that, I could buy a set of spare plate armor for the armorer in the party- arguably a better investment.
the part of astral projection that is really useful with monks is it ignore material components- helpful because I wouldn't want to have to spend 1,300 gp to take my party into the astral plane. For that, I could buy a set of spare plate armor for the armorer in the party- arguably a better investment.
Money is a nebulous concept in D&D. The DM basically decides how much you should have and that's it. And again, it's either the Monk alone for free or the entire party for 1,300 gp.
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Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
One of my hobbies when I'm about to start a new campaign is to look at online guides ranking the core classes (which now include the artificer). However, I've sort of run out of those... so I figured I'll make my own.
I've written a bit of info about each class, starting with suggested roles in the party. At the end of each description, I will include a rank, from D to S (D, C, B, A, S, with S being the best and D the worst).
Artificer: Support, defender (battle smith), frontliner (armorer), blaster (artillerist, mostly), handyman. Artificers do support different from other classes, functioning mostly on items rather than buffs and heals. Each archetype has its own favored style, with alchemists leaning into the support role, armorers being a frontliner, artillerists being a blaster, and battle smiths being a defender. Battle smith actually reminds me of the improved beastmaster, although their companion operates on a different action economy than the beastmaster. One thing I like about the artificer is that even when they pick their niche, they are still incredibly versatile, and can adapt to almost any situation. When you play an artificer, remember: sharing is caring. Don't hog all the infusions for things like homunculus servant. Instead, infuse your party members items, and keep one or two for yourself. The artificer is meant to be a team player, even if they are very self-sufficient. Rank: A
Barbarian: Defender (spirit guardian archetype fits this best), Tank. Barbarians are excellent in combat, but outside of it, they have very few skills. They have a decent list of skills, amplified by the optional class features from TCoE, but other than that, they can't do much... they're not exactly sneaky, and often have low charisma and/or intelligence. However, with their high hit die and good natural armor, they make a solid tank or frontliner. Rank: C
Bard: Support, Frontliner (valor and swords only), Face. Bards have a great list of spells, including a whole lot of excellent buffs, debuffs, and control spells. With charisma as their primary ability, and a good list of social skills, they make an excellent party face as well. However, without a subclass like valor or swords which grants more martial abilities, they don't have much offensive power themselves. Rank: A
Cleric: Support, Frontliner, Blaster. Clerics are an interesting class. They have a huge list of subclasses, second only to wizards, and get a variety of good weapon and armor proficiencies from these archetypes. They also have a decent amount of offense spells, with some OP exclusives like guiding bolt. The main role people usually choose for them is healer, which makes sense, especially if you play a life cleric. Most of their archetypes give heavy armor proficiency, allowing them to stay alive longer. Rank: S
Druid: Support, Handyman, Scout. Druids have great flavor, and some good class features. Their spell list is nice too, with some good exclusives like storm of vengeance, moonbeam, and healing spirit (which has now been nerfed). The thing that people remember about them is wildshape, an excellent feature which allows them to morph into a beast (or an elemental for moon druids, or a weird fungi guy with spores). Wildshape typically isn't useful in combat, but out of combat, it's pretty great. It's excellent for disguise and mobility, allowing them to be good scouts. If you're a moon druid, you can also morph into elementals, or higher CR beasts, allowing you to make a more effective combatant. It's also worth mentioning that they have decent martial skills, with some good finnesse weapons, light and medium armor, and shields. Rank: B
Fighter: Any martial role, Blaster (eldritch knight only). Fighters are pretty straightforward: weapons. They excel in combat, getting more attack than anyone except for monks. They also have proficiency in every weapon and armor type in the game, although they're somewhat lacking in skills. The eldritch knight archetype adds a bit more versatility, giving you some handy utility spells from the wizard spell list, as well as some more blasty spells like fireball. Rank: A
Monk: Striker, Scout, Sneak. Monks are notoriously MAD (multiple ability dependent), although they do have their fair share of good abilities. They have the martial arts feature, which gives their unarmed strikes better damage, and essentially gives you the two-weapon fighting style. They also have the flurry of blows, which allows them to take two extra attacks as a bonus action. They also have extra speed, immunity to old age, the ability to walk along walls and water, and proficiency in all saving throws, at higher levels. Monks are extremely powerful, but they take a while to become that way. Rank: A
Paladin: Striker, Support, Tank, Defender. Paladins, although they are slightly MAD, are undeniably powerful. 5 levels of spells, divine smite for massive damage, and some cazy powerful auras- these guys have everything, magic-wise, plus martial abilities nearly as good as the fighter. Rank: S
Ranger: Scout, Sneak, Striker, Archer. Recently, rangers got an update. TCoE fixed a lot of the class features that made rangers weak... now, they're at least a bit better. They have some handy utility spells and abilities, some good combat abilities, and an excellent amount of disguise and stealth abilities. They still have a few flaws, mainly that they tend to be a bit niche still, but all in all, they're a good pick. Rank: A
Rogue: Sneak, Handyman, Scout, Control (arcane trickster only) Rogues are pretty cool. They're a bit weak in combat, but they have a bunch of utility, especially with the arcane trickster subclass. I find some of their features lacking, but I would still play one. Rank: B
Sorcerer: Blaster, Face. I never liked sorcerers. They only know 15 spells, and have to wait until they gain a level to switch them out. And even then, they can only switch out one at a time. This makes them incredibly niche... in fact, not niche, stuck. They pick their type and they're left with it till level 20. Some of their subclasses ease the pain a bit, giving them access to cleric or wizard spells as well, but it doesn't really help. They do have metamagic, but most of those options are easily granted by other features from different classes. Rank: D
Warlock: Blaster, Control, Support (celestial), frontliner (hexblade). Warlocks are weird. They cast spells differently from every other class in the game, but they have some really good cantrips... namely, eldritch blast. They also have invocations, which can come in handy with some nice disguise, control, and offensive options. Each patron also changes the way they function, with things like genie and fiend making them blasters, hexblade making them a frontliner, and celestial making them a support character. Rank: B
Wizard: Blaster, Handyman, Control. I'm just gonna get this out of the way... wizards are my favorite. They're extremely versatile, with the longest spell list in the game. They don't get very many class features (one every other level), but they have some great subclasses, like the order of scribes and the abjurer. Wizards stand out from other classes just because of sheer versatility. Rank: S
Final List:
wizard
paladin
cleric
monk
bard
artificer
fighter
ranger
rogue
warlock
druid
barbarian
sorcerer
Tell me your favorite class in the poll!
Rogue!? NINTH!? You're probably forgetting soul knife and phantom. those are the BEST!
As long as this is coming up again, I'll bring up my experience playing a high level monk. I was certainly very effective in combat, especially defensively. Diamond Body is amazing. But really, that's all monk brings to a high level party.
Sneak? Scout? At high tiers those are no longer a thing because you have high level magic in the party. Spells do everything better than you can, faster than you can. Non-spellcasters in general massively fall off in out-of-combat utility as the casters acquire solutions to every problem in the form of spells. You don't really see the extent of this by weighing class utility as singular units rather than as part of a team.
It's still a fun class and I'm not complaining that only spellcasters are good at high level. But I really want to emphasize that at high levels a monk is basically on the level of OP's description of a barbarian - very good in combat, but you're a spectator out of it unless your DM is really trying hard to make your skills matter and work around all the things spells can do.
Stumbled a bit late over this. You seem to trash Sorcerers for the way their spells work, yet don't mention it for bards...almost like it is your antipathy alone that made you rank them lowest.
Stumbled a bit late over this. You seem to trash Sorcerers for the way their spells work, yet don't mention it for bards...almost like it is your antipathy alone that made you rank them lowest.
For me its not spell choice that sinks sorcerer its the pitiful spells known....so few for a full on caster.
Pretty much every other full on caster knows a LOT more than sorcerer with the only exception being Warlock which is a quasi-full caster at best.
They extremely overvalued metamagic to the point where they are backpedaling hard on spells known with the new subclasses.
Aberrant mind knows 11 more spells than draconic sorcerer....which is close to double the amount. You can swap out these spells in addition to your normal spell selections so they are more versatile too.
Its obvious they spotted the issue and attempted to address it in the worse way possible....by just making one subclass objectively better than another....its hexblade all over again.
Its obvious they spotted the issue and attempted to address it in the worse way possible....by just making one subclass objectively better than another....its hexblade all over again.
No, Hexblade is a different problem: a subclass that is reasonable enough by itself but broken for multiclass.
Sorcerers are an interesting one. When what they excel at comes up it’s phenomenal. But most sorcerers need to be so specialised cos of the spells known. The two new sorcerer classes get around the problem with a reasonably fair solution I expect will roll out to the others sooner or later. I think a book within the next few years will give sorcerers known spells. Even if swapping out isn’t an option always. It gives you a staple base you can build On.
i think metamagic is both over and under valued. It has extremely high highs and very low lows. Metamagic is either relevant or not. And I think metamagic is perfectly fine as a feature. Even on a day where no uses of it are made, you have a built in way to get spells back, or upgrade lower level spells you don’t use or need.
I cannot agree with the D ranking having played a few. It so grossly ignores the raw power of just a base spell casting class. It ignores some amazing uses of metamagic. Double haste is fun. Subtle modify memory is excellent. The immunity to counter spell is unique. Twin polymorph, disintegrate, banishment. Being able to quicken a mind sliver to bump saving throws. Being able to quicken spells that let you activate the effect on with an action. Hit an enervation or immolation quickened and then use your action on the same turn to hit them again. hell even twin enervation to give yourself a metric tonne of healing. Even if you just use empowered on spells to bump a dud fireball
and how these metamagic are easily done with other features blows my mind as a statement. Metamagic adept you get a fraction of the potential. So limited a choice it’s virtually useless minus niche cases, or for a sorcerer.
So sure. The class has problems and has some fairly obvious fixes. But a D? This class is a solid B I would say. Enough flaws to be weaker than other casters some of the time. But below the ranger? Below the artificer? Nah I can’t go with that. I’d say they tie with druids. Less flexibility in situations out of their expertise. More when I am good I excel
Its obvious they spotted the issue and attempted to address it in the worse way possible....by just making one subclass objectively better than another....its hexblade all over again.
No, Hexblade is a different problem: a subclass that is reasonable enough by itself but broken for multiclass.
I was more thinking made a Subclass to fix a class issue..... Namely pact of blade kinda sucks outside of Hexblade.
Pact of Blade should give you prof. With medium armor and Shields and the CHa damage option.
This would also fix the dip issue as you would need to get 3 levels in to get it.
Instead they just gave it to Hexblade and "fixed"' it
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One of my hobbies when I'm about to start a new campaign is to look at online guides ranking the core classes (which now include the artificer). However, I've sort of run out of those... so I figured I'll make my own.
I've written a bit of info about each class, starting with suggested roles in the party. At the end of each description, I will include a rank, from D to S (D, C, B, A, S, with S being the best and D the worst).
Final List:
Tell me your favorite class in the poll!
It is done.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/dungeons-dragons-discussion/tips-tactics/7108-5e-class-tier-list-a-bit-more-in-depth
Some hot takes in here. I appreciate the thought and work you put into this, but I find it really hard to rank classes in a practical way because there are so many variables in play. I know some players that are more effective at warlock than paladin, for example. But it can be helpful to rank maximum potential, which I presume this is going for.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
You talk about the Ranger updates... but not the Sorcerer ones? Especially now that sorcerer subclasses are getting massive amount of spells and spell list access?
Rating Bard down because it prefers Save or Die/Suck spells over damage? And yet... you rate druid lower than bard? Why? Not that I'm disagreeing with your ranking, but you don't give a single downside to the druid class, yet rate it worse than both cleric and bard, both of whom you point out flaws.
Both Fighter and Barbarians are low on skills and the like, but you rate barbarian far worse than fighter, only quoting Eldritch Knight as a redeeming feature. Is that your favorite? And are you bumping up Fighter a grade as a result?
I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with your ranking, but I just feel like a couple of your explanations are a bit strange.
the reason fighter is higher than barbarian is because of the number of attacks. fighter gets four, or three if you take a class dip for something else. barbarians get two. barbarians, in my opinion, make great class dips. just like warlocks, actually. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels barbarian gets you 3 attacks, rage, action surge, brutal critical, and a whole lot of other stuff. 11 levels fighter and 9 levels warlock gets you 5 invocations, 3 attacks, pact of the chain or tome (since blade is redundant here), spells, with 3 pact slots, and fighter stuff. That's not to say warlocks are good on their own, they're great. Barbarians are excellent for a combat campaign, too. Just that combat is all they're good at, really. And sorcerers are still good, but what's the point of having two or three spell lists to choose from if you only know 15 spells, and can only switch them out when you gain a level? I just don't like sorcerers because, like I said, they get stuck in a rut.
It is done.
With all due respect, you don't exactly make that bit on the Fighters clear. As for Barbarians only being good for combat.... That's not really true. Between their trap sense and the ability to use Rage to buff themselves with difficult Strength-based checks (forcing doors, jumps, etc), barbarians are actually pretty good at Exploration feats.
The new sorcerer subclasses in Tasha's actually grant them an additional 10 spells known, plus the ability to swap them out. Same with the Ranger ones - more spells known everywhere.
Sorcerers are “still good”, but are the one class getting a D rank? While “still flawed, but all in all a good pick” Rangers get an A? I get that you have an opinion, but that doesn’t seem like an objective evaluation. Monks being in a higher tier than Rogues, Druids and Warlocks is a little questionable too - Monks are pretty much the definition of mediocre for me.
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monks get proficiency in every saving throw, can speak any laguage, don't suffer old age, can make 4 attacks on a turn for the cost of 1 ki point (or three without the ki point), can cast astral projection without material components, can have a speed of up to 60 feet (average), and can walk on water and walls. Plus, open palm monks can insta-kill things every other round. Definitely an S class.
It is done.
Monks are strong in tier 3-4, but that's not really where most play occurs.
This looks like less of an actual objective ranking of classes and more like just a list of someone's most favorite to least favorite classes.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Definitely an S-class, which you ranked A. ;)
But let’s see: Diamond Body is great, no doubt, but it’s lvl 14 - that’s when Clerics get to Resurrect dead people, to put it in context; old age being a threat to adventurers is beyond rare, not needing food or water is arguably the better part of Timeless Body, and that’s at 15th lvl; Tongue of the Sun and Moon is awesome; lots of attacks is good, but ki runs out fast and other warrior classes with fewer attacks typically get stronger ones; Astral Projection for 8 ki points at 18th level is almost half your ki reserve, and you can’t take anyone with you so chances are someone else might just have to cast it anyway at which point the Monk’s ability becomes useless; Unarmored Movement is great; walking on water and walls at lvl 9 is less impressive when you realize Fly is a 3rd lvl spell; Quivering Palm is essentially a Con-based save-or-die effect that requires a successful attack roll at lvl 18 - Sorcerers have been casting save-or-die spells for a long time by then, and they’ll have options for likely harder to saves to succeed.
Honestly, 7th level Evasion and Stillness of Mind are more useful than half what you listed and at least come into play at a level that a lot of campaigns effectively reach.
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the part of astral projection that is really useful with monks is it ignore material components- helpful because I wouldn't want to have to spend 1,300 gp to take my party into the astral plane. For that, I could buy a set of spare plate armor for the armorer in the party- arguably a better investment.
It is done.
Money is a nebulous concept in D&D. The DM basically decides how much you should have and that's it. And again, it's either the Monk alone for free or the entire party for 1,300 gp.
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Rogue!? NINTH!? You're probably forgetting soul knife and phantom. those are the BEST!
As long as this is coming up again, I'll bring up my experience playing a high level monk. I was certainly very effective in combat, especially defensively. Diamond Body is amazing. But really, that's all monk brings to a high level party.
Sneak? Scout? At high tiers those are no longer a thing because you have high level magic in the party. Spells do everything better than you can, faster than you can. Non-spellcasters in general massively fall off in out-of-combat utility as the casters acquire solutions to every problem in the form of spells. You don't really see the extent of this by weighing class utility as singular units rather than as part of a team.
It's still a fun class and I'm not complaining that only spellcasters are good at high level. But I really want to emphasize that at high levels a monk is basically on the level of OP's description of a barbarian - very good in combat, but you're a spectator out of it unless your DM is really trying hard to make your skills matter and work around all the things spells can do.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Stumbled a bit late over this. You seem to trash Sorcerers for the way their spells work, yet don't mention it for bards...almost like it is your antipathy alone that made you rank them lowest.
For me its not spell choice that sinks sorcerer its the pitiful spells known....so few for a full on caster.
Pretty much every other full on caster knows a LOT more than sorcerer with the only exception being Warlock which is a quasi-full caster at best.
They extremely overvalued metamagic to the point where they are backpedaling hard on spells known with the new subclasses.
Aberrant mind knows 11 more spells than draconic sorcerer....which is close to double the amount. You can swap out these spells in addition to your normal spell selections so they are more versatile too.
Its obvious they spotted the issue and attempted to address it in the worse way possible....by just making one subclass objectively better than another....its hexblade all over again.
No, Hexblade is a different problem: a subclass that is reasonable enough by itself but broken for multiclass.
Sorcerers are an interesting one. When what they excel at comes up it’s phenomenal. But most sorcerers need to be so specialised cos of the spells known. The two new sorcerer classes get around the problem with a reasonably fair solution I expect will roll out to the others sooner or later. I think a book within the next few years will give sorcerers known spells. Even if swapping out isn’t an option always. It gives you a staple base you can build On.
i think metamagic is both over and under valued. It has extremely high highs and very low lows. Metamagic is either relevant or not. And I think metamagic is perfectly fine as a feature. Even on a day where no uses of it are made, you have a built in way to get spells back, or upgrade lower level spells you don’t use or need.
I cannot agree with the D ranking having played a few. It so grossly ignores the raw power of just a base spell casting class. It ignores some amazing uses of metamagic. Double haste is fun. Subtle modify memory is excellent. The immunity to counter spell is unique. Twin polymorph, disintegrate, banishment. Being able to quicken a mind sliver to bump saving throws. Being able to quicken spells that let you activate the effect on with an action. Hit an enervation or immolation quickened and then use your action on the same turn to hit them again. hell even twin enervation to give yourself a metric tonne of healing. Even if you just use empowered on spells to bump a dud fireball
and how these metamagic are easily done with other features blows my mind as a statement. Metamagic adept you get a fraction of the potential. So limited a choice it’s virtually useless minus niche cases, or for a sorcerer.
So sure. The class has problems and has some fairly obvious fixes. But a D? This class is a solid B I would say. Enough flaws to be weaker than other casters some of the time. But below the ranger? Below the artificer? Nah I can’t go with that. I’d say they tie with druids. Less flexibility in situations out of their expertise. More when I am good I excel
I was more thinking made a Subclass to fix a class issue..... Namely pact of blade kinda sucks outside of Hexblade.
Pact of Blade should give you prof. With medium armor and Shields and the CHa damage option.
This would also fix the dip issue as you would need to get 3 levels in to get it.
Instead they just gave it to Hexblade and "fixed"' it