And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
Oh well. Clearly a lost cause here, so let's remind people of one thing, that may help explain the whole fervor for 'Finesse Longswords'.
Rogues get longsword proficiency. The game explicitly says "you can use longswords, have at it". The game implicitly, however, says "keep your grubby mitts off this thing" because one cannot in any way use their Sneak Attack class feature with a longsword. RAW, it's simply impossible. Some people don't care. Others? That bothers them. In my particular case especially; I love the rogue class and find it to be a ton of fun in a wide array of build patterns, but it bugs the hell out of me that the game is all "here, have longsword proficiency! If you ever use it you are OBJECTIVELY WRONG, but have it!"
People want to fix that. It's not okay. Much the same way that many folks are bothered by racial equipment proficiencies that no longer make any damned sense, it sucks to have a weapon proficiency you're barred from ever using on rogues. So some folks fish for a sword they can use to fix the issue with. I've made one myself, though never bothered publishing it before this moment. Whether it's a katana, a jian (which is in no way analogous to a European longsword, no matter what the DMG says), or whatever else, some folks just want a way to use that proficiency.
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
[sic]
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
I have had some ill feeling for the lack of finesse weapons of larger size. Elves I feel become limited in their weapon choices. They tend to be a Dex based race/fighting class, but they receive proficiency in longsword not scimitar...a non finesse weapon. I have in the past given Elven/Half Elven (of High, Wood and Eladrin) ancestry characters that get "Elven Weapon Training" to have it worded like this:
Elf Weapon Training
You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, spear, shortbow, and longbow. You also treat longswords and spears as Finesse weapons.
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
because people don't give up on their D10 backstab. Everyone else just uses the OP rapier like they are intended to do.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I have had some ill feeling for the lack of finesse weapons of larger size. Elves I feel become limited in their weapon choices. They tend to be a Dex based race/fighting class, but they receive proficiency in longsword not scimitar...a non finesse weapon. I have in the past given Elven/Half Elven (of High, Wood and Eladrin) ancestry characters that get "Elven Weapon Training" to have it worded like this:
Elf Weapon Training
You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, spear, shortbow, and longbow. You also treat longswords and spears as Finesse weapons.
They get shortsword instead of scimitar. Excepting pierce and slash damage, the only real difference between the two in game, is price. in 5e, the 1 handed arming sword is /not/ a longsword like was mis-respresented in previous editions. It is a shortsword. Scimitars were also demoted from d8 to d6. elves are just fine without finesse longswords. If you want to use a longsword, get str. If you absolutely insist that you are ENTITLED to a d8 1 handed finesse weapon, let me point you to our lord and savior, the rapier.
The game is very clearly balanced around you NOT having access to a 2 handed finesse D10 weapon. Dex is already the master stat. it needs no buffing.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can get behind a scimitar as a finesse weapon, but a falchion? (Two handed 'great' scimitar) that's a str weap through and through.
A cutlas is another STR weapon-there is no finesse in it, even although the books lump it with a shortsword. Now a gladius, that WAS a finesse weapon.
A falchion was not a “two handed great scimitar” it was a one-handed sword. In fact, the only significant difference* between a falchion and a messer was that a falchion had a hilt that attached like a sword, and a messer had a hilt that attached like a knife. In fact, the very word “messer” means “knife” in German because a messer (and a falchion) were both barely long enough to be called swords at all. I have no idea where you get your information.
A Cutlas would also be a “scimitar” in D&D parlance. The reason they were so popular during the age of sail is because they could do a lot of damage, but were nimble enough to not hit the rigging. A Gladius would use the D&D Shortsword stats as it was in fact a type of shortsword.
A D&D weapons list that was true to history would be its own three hundred page book. All the subtleties and intricate trade-offs inherent in real-world weapons development, the hundreds and hundreds of variations even amongst commonly accepted 'real' weapons - it's too granular for 5e. 5e doesn't believe in granular. 5e doesn't give a snot about the difference between a longsword, a bastard sword, an arming sword, a shortsword, a longknife, a dagger, a dirk, or anything else. 5e says pick your damage die size, pick your damage type, see if there's any special traits you need, and go. If you want something fancy, reskin your weapon and just use the same stats, because this game doesn't have the granularity required to model several dozen different sub-varieties of weapon.
A D&D weapons list that was true to history would be its own three hundred page book. All the subtleties and intricate trade-offs inherent in real-world weapons development, the hundreds and hundreds of variations even amongst commonly accepted 'real' weapons - it's too granular for 5e. 5e doesn't believe in granular. 5e doesn't give a snot about the difference between a longsword, a bastard sword, an arming sword, a shortsword, a longknife, a dagger, a dirk, or anything else. 5e says pick your damage die size, pick your damage type, see if there's any special traits you need, and go. If you want something fancy, reskin your weapon and just use the same stats, because this game doesn't have the granularity required to model several dozen different sub-varieties of weapon.
A D&D weapons list that was true to history would be its own three hundred page book. All the subtleties and intricate trade-offs inherent in real-world weapons development, the hundreds and hundreds of variations even amongst commonly accepted 'real' weapons - it's too granular for 5e. 5e doesn't believe in granular. 5e doesn't give a snot about the difference between a longsword, a bastard sword, an arming sword, a shortsword, a longknife, a dagger, a dirk, or anything else. 5e says pick your damage die size, pick your damage type, see if there's any special traits you need, and go. If you want something fancy, reskin your weapon and just use the same stats, because this game doesn't have the granularity required to model several dozen different sub-varieties of weapon.
I cannot upvote this enough. The problem is, people are deliberately trying to get themselves a d10 two handed finesse weapon that does not exist. Rapier with slash damage? not a problem. two handed slash rapier with d10? that's a problem.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
In my experience DMing, I have never seen a rogue use a Sun Blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It is much better to take the dual wielder feat and dual wield a finesse longsword with another weapon than to use it two handed.
I have not introduced a dex-longsword/katana in my games before besides a Sun Blade, but my opinion on this is that it would be no more gamebreaking than a rogue that dual wields rapiers.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
In my experience DMing, I have never seen a rogue use a Sun Blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It is much better to take the dual wielder feat and dual wield a finesse longsword with another weapon than to use it two handed.
I have not introduced a dex-longsword/katana in my games before besides a Sun Blade, but my opinion on this is that it would be no more gamebreaking than a rogue that dual wields rapiers.
I've played a rogue that used a sun blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It should be noted that the rogue was an arcane trickster though, so dual wielding would mean giving up the cantrip damage.
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
[sic]
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
There's nothing wrong with necroing a thread that's got value. This one does.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
[sic]
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
There's nothing wrong with necroing a thread that's got value. This one does.
It's not necromancy if it adds positively to the conversation. If it doesn't, that's necromancy. If it does, that's revivification.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
In my experience DMing, I have never seen a rogue use a Sun Blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It is much better to take the dual wielder feat and dual wield a finesse longsword with another weapon than to use it two handed.
I have not introduced a dex-longsword/katana in my games before besides a Sun Blade, but my opinion on this is that it would be no more gamebreaking than a rogue that dual wields rapiers.
I've played a rogue that used a sun blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It should be noted that the rogue was an arcane trickster though, so dual wielding would mean giving up the cantrip damage.
Okay, yes. There are exceptions to this. But, most rogues that engage in melee combat would rather make another attack to possibly trigger their sneak attack than to get an extra 1-2 points of damage off one attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
Our thread necromancy rules are not black & white references to post date alone. If the topic remains relevant, as 5e is, then discussion on D&D, game rules, mechanics, etc, often remains relevant as well. Please keep in mind the subject matter, rather than solely the post date, when classifying a dead thread.
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
Our thread necromancy rules are not black & white references to post date alone. If the topic remains relevant, as 5e is, then discussion on D&D, game rules, mechanics, etc, often remains relevant as well. Please keep in mind the subject matter, rather than solely the post date, when classifying a dead thread.
My apologies. As a member of the cult of Sedge, I humbly beg your forgiveness in this matter.
My point with this is, to the people who are saying a 1d8/versatile 1d10 weapon would be over powered, it would be better than rapiers, longswords, battleaxes, and warhammers and every other 1d8 weapon, but you could fairly easily fix this. Increase its price to 500 gold pieces, make them extremely rare, and possibly not allow shields with them, or some other drawback.
In my Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign, the party got 2 sunblades. The rogue dual wielded them instead of using them 2 handed. A weapon that is finesse, and versatile, is only better than a rapier by 1 point of damage on average when using two hands, which will be used fairly rarely in later levels for the classes that would get the best use out of them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
My point with this is, to the people who are saying a 1d8/versatile 1d10 weapon would be over powered, it would be better than rapiers, longswords, battleaxes, and warhammers and every other 1d8 weapon, but you could fairly easily fix this. Increase its price to 500 gold pieces, make them extremely rare, and possibly not allow shields with them, or some other drawback.
In my Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign, the party got 2 sunblades. The rogue dual wielded them instead of using them 2 handed. A weapon that is finesse, and versatile, is only better than a rapier by 1 point of damage on average when using two hands, which will be used fairly rarely in later levels for the classes that would get the best use out of them.
The classes that would get the best use out of them are the ones with more attacks, not the ones with sneak attack.
The real issue is that the cap for Dex melee damage is 1d8. Period. 1d10 or better only work with Str builds. If you want that die, go Str. Dex already does too much. If a Fighter can GWFS a 1d10 Finesse, it only further invalidates Str. How little the difference over the Rapier is irrelevant when discussing Rogues because all of their real damage comes from SA. But simply making that weapon a possibility in the game means it is now available for everyone. As a rare magic item, no problem. As a piece of standard equipment it becomes a problem.
Everyone keeps coming back to DMG p.41. The same page that lists nunchaku as a club, but gives a different damage die than the player handbook.
What's suggested is an easy solution to what is obvious in this thread is a sensitive subject to many players and DMs.
Ultimately what the book says doesn't matter, nor what I say. What matters is what your DM says.
And mods wonder why nobody ever bothers reporting thread necromancy, and why some people get so frustrated with the constant presence of zombie threads...
Oh well. Clearly a lost cause here, so let's remind people of one thing, that may help explain the whole fervor for 'Finesse Longswords'.
Rogues get longsword proficiency. The game explicitly says "you can use longswords, have at it". The game implicitly, however, says "keep your grubby mitts off this thing" because one cannot in any way use their Sneak Attack class feature with a longsword. RAW, it's simply impossible. Some people don't care. Others? That bothers them. In my particular case especially; I love the rogue class and find it to be a ton of fun in a wide array of build patterns, but it bugs the hell out of me that the game is all "here, have longsword proficiency! If you ever use it you are OBJECTIVELY WRONG, but have it!"
People want to fix that. It's not okay. Much the same way that many folks are bothered by racial equipment proficiencies that no longer make any damned sense, it sucks to have a weapon proficiency you're barred from ever using on rogues. So some folks fish for a sword they can use to fix the issue with. I've made one myself, though never bothered publishing it before this moment. Whether it's a katana, a jian (which is in no way analogous to a European longsword, no matter what the DMG says), or whatever else, some folks just want a way to use that proficiency.
Nevertheless. A d8/d10 versatile weapon with Finesse that is not magical or otherwise restricted is too much. As was answered TWO AND A HALF YEARS AGO. Why are we still talking about this?
Please do not contact or message me.
That’s my fault. I saw someone had started a nearly identical thread and sent them here instead. I figured reviving this one was better than a whole brand new one of these.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I have had some ill feeling for the lack of finesse weapons of larger size. Elves I feel become limited in their weapon choices. They tend to be a Dex based race/fighting class, but they receive proficiency in longsword not scimitar...a non finesse weapon. I have in the past given Elven/Half Elven (of High, Wood and Eladrin) ancestry characters that get "Elven Weapon Training" to have it worded like this:
Elf Weapon Training
You have proficiency with the longsword, shortsword, spear, shortbow, and longbow. You also treat longswords and spears as Finesse weapons.
because people don't give up on their D10 backstab. Everyone else just uses the OP rapier like they are intended to do.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I can get behind a scimitar as a finesse weapon, but a falchion? (Two handed 'great' scimitar) that's a str weap through and through.
A cutlas is another STR weapon-there is no finesse in it, even although the books lump it with a shortsword. Now a gladius, that WAS a finesse weapon.
They get shortsword instead of scimitar. Excepting pierce and slash damage, the only real difference between the two in game, is price. in 5e, the 1 handed arming sword is /not/ a longsword like was mis-respresented in previous editions. It is a shortsword. Scimitars were also demoted from d8 to d6. elves are just fine without finesse longswords. If you want to use a longsword, get str. If you absolutely insist that you are ENTITLED to a d8 1 handed finesse weapon, let me point you to our lord and savior, the rapier.
The game is very clearly balanced around you NOT having access to a 2 handed finesse D10 weapon. Dex is already the master stat. it needs no buffing.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
A falchion was not a “two handed great scimitar” it was a one-handed sword. In fact, the only significant difference* between a falchion and a messer was that a falchion had a hilt that attached like a sword, and a messer had a hilt that attached like a knife. In fact, the very word “messer” means “knife” in German because a messer (and a falchion) were both barely long enough to be called swords at all. I have no idea where you get your information.
A Cutlas would also be a “scimitar” in D&D parlance. The reason they were so popular during the age of sail is because they could do a lot of damage, but were nimble enough to not hit the rigging. A Gladius would use the D&D Shortsword stats as it was in fact a type of shortsword.
*Part One of a Five part series.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
A D&D weapons list that was true to history would be its own three hundred page book. All the subtleties and intricate trade-offs inherent in real-world weapons development, the hundreds and hundreds of variations even amongst commonly accepted 'real' weapons - it's too granular for 5e. 5e doesn't believe in granular. 5e doesn't give a snot about the difference between a longsword, a bastard sword, an arming sword, a shortsword, a longknife, a dagger, a dirk, or anything else. 5e says pick your damage die size, pick your damage type, see if there's any special traits you need, and go. If you want something fancy, reskin your weapon and just use the same stats, because this game doesn't have the granularity required to model several dozen different sub-varieties of weapon.
Please do not contact or message me.
This^^^
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I cannot upvote this enough. The problem is, people are deliberately trying to get themselves a d10 two handed finesse weapon that does not exist. Rapier with slash damage? not a problem. two handed slash rapier with d10? that's a problem.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
In my experience DMing, I have never seen a rogue use a Sun Blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It is much better to take the dual wielder feat and dual wield a finesse longsword with another weapon than to use it two handed.
I have not introduced a dex-longsword/katana in my games before besides a Sun Blade, but my opinion on this is that it would be no more gamebreaking than a rogue that dual wields rapiers.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I've played a rogue that used a sun blade with 2 hands instead of dual wielding. It should be noted that the rogue was an arcane trickster though, so dual wielding would mean giving up the cantrip damage.
There's nothing wrong with necroing a thread that's got value. This one does.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
It's not necromancy if it adds positively to the conversation. If it doesn't, that's necromancy. If it does, that's revivification.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Okay, yes. There are exceptions to this. But, most rogues that engage in melee combat would rather make another attack to possibly trigger their sneak attack than to get an extra 1-2 points of damage off one attack.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Our thread necromancy rules are not black & white references to post date alone. If the topic remains relevant, as 5e is, then discussion on D&D, game rules, mechanics, etc, often remains relevant as well. Please keep in mind the subject matter, rather than solely the post date, when classifying a dead thread.
My apologies. As a member of the cult of Sedge, I humbly beg your forgiveness in this matter.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
My point with this is, to the people who are saying a 1d8/versatile 1d10 weapon would be over powered, it would be better than rapiers, longswords, battleaxes, and warhammers and every other 1d8 weapon, but you could fairly easily fix this. Increase its price to 500 gold pieces, make them extremely rare, and possibly not allow shields with them, or some other drawback.
In my Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign, the party got 2 sunblades. The rogue dual wielded them instead of using them 2 handed. A weapon that is finesse, and versatile, is only better than a rapier by 1 point of damage on average when using two hands, which will be used fairly rarely in later levels for the classes that would get the best use out of them.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
The classes that would get the best use out of them are the ones with more attacks, not the ones with sneak attack.
The real issue is that the cap for Dex melee damage is 1d8. Period. 1d10 or better only work with Str builds. If you want that die, go Str. Dex already does too much. If a Fighter can GWFS a 1d10 Finesse, it only further invalidates Str. How little the difference over the Rapier is irrelevant when discussing Rogues because all of their real damage comes from SA. But simply making that weapon a possibility in the game means it is now available for everyone. As a rare magic item, no problem. As a piece of standard equipment it becomes a problem.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting