My point with this is, to the people who are saying a 1d8/versatile 1d10 weapon would be over powered, it would be better than rapiers, longswords, battleaxes, and warhammers and every other 1d8 weapon, but you could fairly easily fix this. Increase its price to 500 gold pieces, make them extremely rare, and possibly not allow shields with them, or some other drawback.
In my Dungeon of the Mad Mage campaign, the party got 2 sunblades. The rogue dual wielded them instead of using them 2 handed. A weapon that is finesse, and versatile, is only better than a rapier by 1 point of damage on average when using two hands, which will be used fairly rarely in later levels for the classes that would get the best use out of them.
The classes that would get the best use out of them are the ones with more attacks, not the ones with sneak attack.
The real issue is that the cap for Dex melee damage is 1d8. Period. 1d10 or better only work with Str builds. If you want that die, go Str. Dex already does too much. If a Fighter can GWFS a 1d10 Finesse, it only further invalidates Str. How little the difference over the Rapier is irrelevant when discussing Rogues because all of their real damage comes from SA. But simply making that weapon a possibility in the game means it is now available for everyone. As a rare magic item, no problem. As a piece of standard equipment it becomes a problem.
So fighters are the problem with this? Okay. I could see that. Especially Samurai.
If you give it some major drawback, that could work. Like how lances are only one-handed on a mount, and have disadvantage on attacks within 5 feet. Maybe have it be Dex to hit, but strength for damage, or disadvantage if you attack more than once in the turn?
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Fighters are only part of it. If it doesn’t have something to offset it, then you would end up with Spear vs Trident all over again.
There is one advantage a spear has over a trident though. It is far easier to produce. That alone is enough for magic spears to be more common than magic tridents. Spears are also easier to improvise and are simple whereas tridents are martial. As such not sure why spear vs trident would be an issue....
Spears are cheaper, lighter, can be used for polearm master, and are simple weapons, so more people are proficient with them.
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Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
I'm firmly on board with nerfing the rapier, so no additional finesse weapons imo, particularly pole weapons. no no no.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm firmly on board with nerfing the rapier, so no additional finesse weapons imo, particularly pole weapons. no no no.
I don’t mind the rapier. Non Sneak Attack Dex builds need something better than a Shortsword.
I probably wouldn't mind the rapier if not for a few things. First of all, with finesse weapons, rapier is better than...everything. Secondly, dex and str are not in balance as far as general usefulness. Dex gives you great saving throws, more (and useful) skills, init, improved AC and better ranged attacks. If you are using a 1h weapon and a shield, picking a rapier is /never/ the wrong choice...even if you go str build.
I just can't agree with you that non sneak attack dex builds need something better than a shortsword. I think being limited to d6 is perfectly fine for all of the other benefits that dex provides. If you want better melee damage, you should have to go str in my opinion.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I'm firmly on board with nerfing the rapier, so no additional finesse weapons imo, particularly pole weapons. no no no.
I don’t mind the rapier. Non Sneak Attack Dex builds need something better than a Shortsword.
I probably wouldn't mind the rapier if not for a few things. First of all, with finesse weapons, rapier is better than...everything. Secondly, dex and str are not in balance as far as general usefulness. Dex gives you great saving throws, more (and useful) skills, init, improved AC and better ranged attacks. If you are using a 1h weapon and a shield, picking a rapier is /never/ the wrong choice...even if you go str build.
I just can't agree with you that non sneak attack dex builds need something better than a shortsword. I think being limited to d6 is perfectly fine for all of the other benefits that dex provides. If you want better melee damage, you should have to go str in my opinion.
I can appreciate that. I just think the cutoff being a d8 instead of a d6 is okay. I do think that the Str based weapons should have a boost rather than nerf the Rapier. If the max for Str was 2d8 instead of 2d6 it would open up room for a little more wiggle in between the Rapier and the Greatsword.
I disagree again, and will explain my reasoning. Simple weapons should be the baseline. These should be either weaker in damage and/or utility to martial weapons. Finesse confers the benefit of allowing users to use their dex instead of their str, therefore they should not /also/ have a more damaging option. The rest of the finesse weapons follow that paradigm. Scimitar and Shortsword for example, match the top end 1h damage of the simple mace, which is about the top of the line simple weapon. The dagger, also a simple weapon, in exchange for finesse loses a damage die down to d4. This is quite reasonable imo; in fact on my clerics I generally use daggers as my melee weapon rather than a mace for just that reason.
The /one/ weapon that breaks this paradigm, is the rapier. When compared to the other non-versatile martial 1h weapon, the flail, it's exactly equivalent. That's wrong. A martial 1h only weapon /should/ be better than in damage, not equal to, the best finesse weapon. And I don't think it's reasonable to increase damage across the board, just because rapiers break the paradigm and because players have a mental expectation that 1h = d8 or it's trash. Rapiers just let people have their cake and eat it too.
What I /would/ consider, is making spears finesse. If you want to have that d8 and use your dex, you're going to have to give up the shield and use the spear two handed.
EDIT: had to change a word trash because my original word selection was censored for some strange reason.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I can understand that, but if all of those 1d8 Martial non-finess weapon’s went to 1d10, the Longsword could do 1d10/1d12 etc. Then Str builds suddenly become more attractive by comparison and everybody gets to have their cake and eat it too. Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
Seems to me the imbalance is in Dexterity. Dexterity is just too valuable and that can't be fixed without completely reworking the system.
Rapiers undermine the usefulness that str has, because it provides an equally damaging option to an otherwise superior stat. This is the heart of every thread where someone's trying to get better finesse weapons so they can dump their str. Whether it's katanas or naginata, most players /know/ that dex is better than str, but they want that tasty damage too.
It should be a choice: want tasty damage? Pick str. If you want great utility and OK damage, pick dex with finesse weapons. It should /not/ be pick rapiers and have it all.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
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So fighters are the problem with this? Okay. I could see that. Especially Samurai.
If you give it some major drawback, that could work. Like how lances are only one-handed on a mount, and have disadvantage on attacks within 5 feet. Maybe have it be Dex to hit, but strength for damage, or disadvantage if you attack more than once in the turn?
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Fighters are only part of it. If it doesn’t have something to offset it, then you would end up with Spear vs Trident all over again.
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Spears are cheaper, lighter, can be used for polearm master, and are simple weapons, so more people are proficient with them.
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Yes, it would need something to offset it.
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They did that already. The dropped versatile and changed the name to rapier.
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I would either reskin a rapier or longsword, not combine the two, or if you did, just make katanas rarer/harder to find
I exist, and I guess so does this
Personally, if I was looking for a two-handed weapon with a d10 damage die an finesse, I'd go with the naginata. I know what the DMG says, but naginatas for women were noted as being lighter in weight. And with polearms, the striking power is based more on the leverage provided by the shaft than the wielder's strength. Besides, it's cool.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
So a halberd with finesse instead of heavy?
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seems completely balanced lol
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
That's the basic idea, yes. I'm debating on whether or not it should also give up Reach.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That would get it closer to balanced.
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I'm firmly on board with nerfing the rapier, so no additional finesse weapons imo, particularly pole weapons. no no no.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I don’t mind the rapier. Non Sneak Attack Dex builds need something better than a Shortsword.
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I probably wouldn't mind the rapier if not for a few things. First of all, with finesse weapons, rapier is better than...everything. Secondly, dex and str are not in balance as far as general usefulness. Dex gives you great saving throws, more (and useful) skills, init, improved AC and better ranged attacks. If you are using a 1h weapon and a shield, picking a rapier is /never/ the wrong choice...even if you go str build.
I just can't agree with you that non sneak attack dex builds need something better than a shortsword. I think being limited to d6 is perfectly fine for all of the other benefits that dex provides. If you want better melee damage, you should have to go str in my opinion.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I can appreciate that. I just think the cutoff being a d8 instead of a d6 is okay. I do think that the Str based weapons should have a boost rather than nerf the Rapier. If the max for Str was 2d8 instead of 2d6 it would open up room for a little more wiggle in between the Rapier and the Greatsword.
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Seems to me the imbalance is in Dexterity. Dexterity is just too valuable and that can't be fixed without completely reworking the system.
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Truth. Or rather, Str and Int are out of balance.
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I disagree again, and will explain my reasoning. Simple weapons should be the baseline. These should be either weaker in damage and/or utility to martial weapons. Finesse confers the benefit of allowing users to use their dex instead of their str, therefore they should not /also/ have a more damaging option. The rest of the finesse weapons follow that paradigm. Scimitar and Shortsword for example, match the top end 1h damage of the simple mace, which is about the top of the line simple weapon. The dagger, also a simple weapon, in exchange for finesse loses a damage die down to d4. This is quite reasonable imo; in fact on my clerics I generally use daggers as my melee weapon rather than a mace for just that reason.
The /one/ weapon that breaks this paradigm, is the rapier. When compared to the other non-versatile martial 1h weapon, the flail, it's exactly equivalent. That's wrong. A martial 1h only weapon /should/ be better than in damage, not equal to, the best finesse weapon. And I don't think it's reasonable to increase damage across the board, just because rapiers break the paradigm and because players have a mental expectation that 1h = d8 or it's trash. Rapiers just let people have their cake and eat it too.
What I /would/ consider, is making spears finesse. If you want to have that d8 and use your dex, you're going to have to give up the shield and use the spear two handed.
EDIT: had to change a word trash because my original word selection was censored for some strange reason.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I can understand that, but if all of those 1d8 Martial non-finess weapon’s went to 1d10, the Longsword could do 1d10/1d12 etc. Then Str builds suddenly become more attractive by comparison and everybody gets to have their cake and eat it too. Of course, that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.
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Rapiers undermine the usefulness that str has, because it provides an equally damaging option to an otherwise superior stat. This is the heart of every thread where someone's trying to get better finesse weapons so they can dump their str. Whether it's katanas or naginata, most players /know/ that dex is better than str, but they want that tasty damage too.
It should be a choice: want tasty damage? Pick str. If you want great utility and OK damage, pick dex with finesse weapons. It should /not/ be pick rapiers and have it all.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha