If the character's abilities don't matter, then you're not DMing a role-playing game - you're posing theoretical fantasy escape-room challenges to your friends. Which is fine, and a good way to spend time with your buddies if that's your thing, but it's not an RPG.
Ahh... but you see that’s what it was back then. Way back when, this is exactly what the original concept of an RPG was.
The avatar's skills, abilities, training, and equipment are all paramount to the role-playing part of RPG. [Sic] Both are necessary for an ideal experience. And when 'Tradition' says one or the other is unimportant and should be ignored, Tradition is simply wrong.
Ahh, but you see, not everyone agrees with those things being paramount to the Role-Playing part, some see all of that as rather superfluous.
And not everybody agrees that both are necessary for an ideal experience.
And “tradition” hasn’t said a damn word about it. It’s just that there are people who don’t agree with you. And it appears in your mind that makes us “wrong.”
First of all, it's fine. While I appreciate it, I make a point not to throw my gender issues in people's faces so long as they don't make a point of deliberately poking at those issues. BL wasn't doing that, so he's good.
Second of all, I didn't actually see that post BL quoted. Work issues -_-. Apologies. That said, you've asked me a few times now, as the apparently official spokesperson for 'Bespoke' character creation, what I would do if my bespoke character was killed. Let me answer, since it may help.
Obviously it depends in part on the circumstances of the death, but for this we'll assume the most common cause - violent death in battle. Were that to happen? My DM would retire the sheet to Inactive status in the campaign, and I would begin working with the DM to figure out the next character. I have a few half-finished ideas waiting in the wings in case of just such an eventuality, as my character is currently laboring under a curse that makes it fundamentally impossible to resurrect her should she be killed. I would likely miss a couple of sessions, possibly however many sessions are left before the party resolves its current arc/assignment, and then the DM would figure out a way to get whichever new character I create into the story. On my own time I might have a little bit of a cry because I'm deeply attached to Star, and I might crack some bittersweet jokes to the rest of the group about holding her wake on the next convenient weekend. But die she would, and her death would be absolutely horrific due to said curse.
Nevertheless. The short answer is "if my character dies? She dies, and I sit sessions out until the story's right to bring in the next character." No muss or fuss, no blaming-the-DM, no begging for reprieve. Simply a final salute to a fallen friend, memories for the future, and a new sheet for when I get to play next.
If anyone who loves 5e wants to try this style of game with the old school nuances, their is a game called Five Torches that uses 5e rules that is designed specifically for this style of game. Its a fantastic game, really smart and does exactly what old school games do, but uses the rules you are already accustomed to.
I just watched a 12 minute run through of the original source book for 5 Torches. There appear to be a number of additional source books, but no modules. The odds are getting better every day I am starting up a new campaign, with a max of 3 players, and the 2 confirmed are both DM's whose games I have played in (I hate Covid so much). I would really like to try to marry the OSR with 5e, at least from the narration portion as you have described. These are all experienced players, who run very loose with the rules campaigns (one runs a 37 point buy (no typo), and that was after me pleading with him to cut back my Paladin's stat block, and the group at 8th level trashing his Adult Black Dragon equivalent). They both know I am running a tighter game, with 27 point buy, PHB and XGTE only. I think it would be refreshing for the players and me to hash out any changes that might take the game back more to OSR, but primarily in narration and non-combat encounters.
But that is more on me, as a DM, to provide the skeleton to affix the meat to.
First of all, it's fine. While I appreciate it, I make a point not to throw my gender issues in people's faces so long as they don't make a point of deliberately poking at those issues. BL wasn't doing that, so he's good.
Second of all, I didn't actually see that post BL quoted. Work issues -_-. Apologies. That said, you've asked me a few times now, as the apparently official spokesperson for 'Bespoke' character creation, what I would do if my bespoke character was killed. Let me answer, since it may help.
Obviously it depends in part on the circumstances of the death, but for this we'll assume the most common cause - violent death in battle. Were that to happen? My DM would retire the sheet to Inactive status in the campaign, and I would begin working with the DM to figure out the next character. I have a few half-finished ideas waiting in the wings in case of just such an eventuality, as my character is currently laboring under a curse that makes it fundamentally impossible to resurrect her should she be killed. I would likely miss a couple of sessions, possibly however many sessions are left before the party resolves its current arc/assignment, and then the DM would figure out a way to get whichever new character I create into the story. On my own time I might have a little bit of a cry because I'm deeply attached to Star, and I might crack some bittersweet jokes to the rest of the group about holding her wake on the next convenient weekend. But die she would, and her death would be absolutely horrific due to said curse.
Nevertheless. The short answer is "if my character dies? She dies, and I sit sessions out until the story's right to bring in the next character." No muss or fuss, no blaming-the-DM, no begging for reprieve. Simply a final salute to a fallen friend, memories for the future, and a new sheet for when I get to play next.
Does that clear anything up?
I want to see if I understand this correctly.
a. You have no completed back up char ready to go, if your current char dies.
b. You would not only sit out the rest of that session, but potentially several others, while you work with the DM to craft a new char.
c. It may take several sessions until your DM can "fit your new char" into the narrative of the game.
Yuriel. This is not gatekeeping. This is not an attack. Get yourself out of that game, away from that table, as quickly as you can. If that is the mindset at your table, shared by all at the table, you are indeed in a campaign and sitting with people far more brutal (and I mean the people, not the chars) than any of we Old School Psychopaths. I have NEVER heard of such real life conditions at a table. NEVER.
A.) I have between two to thirty 'completed characters' ready to serve as backups, depending on what goes down. The campaign is set in a friend's homebrew world with very different cosmology than Faerun, so everything requires adjustment, but I have options.
B.) I would voluntarily sit out that session (or more likely simply go on mute and listen/spectate), because I got my fool ass killed and dead gals don't get to play D&D.
C.) Again - I would voluntarily sit out or spectate sessions until my new character is introduced, because I respect the story the DM and our team is telling more than to say "Oh noes, Star's dead! Oh, gosh, look at that - Kherryn was hiding under Star's corpse, we have a new friend now!" I would want the death of the previous character to carry the weight and gravitas it deserves, and for the team to find the new character something resembling organically. I am willing to sacrifice active playtime to achieve those goals.
Those are not things the DM has told me would happen to me. Those are things I would tell the DM I'm doing. He's aware of my backups; the work we'd need to do would be more in the finalization stage than anything else. And in the interim? Dead people don't get to play D&D. They get to listen, if they're lucky.
Character death absolutely sucks rocks. That's one of many reasons characters should strive to avoid dying, if at all possible.
Pre-3rd edition D&D had fewer cross-class/universal mechanics. Third ed was the first, certainly when looking at the core rules, with a comprehensive skill system that made (with a few class exclusive exceptions) every skill available to every class, for instance. I recall a lot of houseruling (or plain hand-waving) regarding stealth since that was only defined as a thief skill in the AD&D PHB. That impacted the expectations about how certain challeges could be overcome and by who a lot.
A perhaps less contentious distinction between 20th and 21st century D&D is that the latter is more sandboxy. The former isn't necessarily railroad central or even linear, but I don't recall anything like Rime of the Frostmaiden among the earlier editions' published modules and homegrown campaigns (this goes for a lot of campaigns I see in podcasts or streamed as well) seem to have evolved to be more player driven than they used to be. The DM's still in charge, but it used to be the players shaped the story while the DM steered - players nowadays grab a (minority) share in the steering as well. Part of that is probably due to characters being more than their class now (see the first point above), another part that the 'grist for the mill' notion of early editions towards PCs described by others has almost completely disappeared.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
To get this thread back on track, imma just say when I was just a fledgling adventurer, I literally just used 4d6 to get them sweet, sweet 18's
Thanks for the honesty. Most won't say that. As for killing your char off, if you want to start up a new one, most DM are happy enough to have your current one ride off into the sunset. I have known the occasional DM to take your char, living OR dead, and bring it back at a later as an NPC. But the dead ones, yeah, typically that means real trouble for the party.
Talk with your DM, out of game, about what you would like to do.
A.) I have between two to thirty 'completed characters' ready to serve as backups, depending on what goes down. The campaign is set in a friend's homebrew world with very different cosmology than Faerun, so everything requires adjustment, but I have options.
B.) I would voluntarily sit out that session (or more likely simply go on mute and listen/spectate), because I got my fool ass killed and dead gals don't get to play D&D.
C.) Again - I would voluntarily sit out or spectate sessions until my new character is introduced, because I respect the story the DM and our team is telling more than to say "Oh noes, Star's dead! Oh, gosh, look at that - Kherryn was hiding under Star's corpse, we have a new friend now!" I would want the death of the previous character to carry the weight and gravitas it deserves, and for the team to find the new character something resembling organically. I am willing to sacrifice active playtime to achieve those goals.
Those are not things the DM has told me would happen to me. Those are things I would tell the DM I'm doing. He's aware of my backups; the work we'd need to do would be more in the finalization stage than anything else. And in the interim? Dead people don't get to play D&D. They get to listen, if they're lucky.
Character death absolutely sucks rocks. That's one of many reasons characters should strive to avoid dying, if at all possible.
Yuriel, are you saying that your method is unique to your table?
To get this thread back on track, imma just say when I was just a fledgling adventurer, I literally just used 4d6 to get them sweet, sweet 18's
Thanks for the honesty. Most won't say that. As for killing your char off, if you want to start up a new one, most DM are happy enough to have your current one ride off into the sunset. I have known the occasional DM to take your char, living OR dead, and bring it back at a later as an NPC. But the dead ones, yeah, typically that means real trouble for the party.
Talk with your DM, out of game, about what you would like to do.
People (mostly Sposta) wanted to know what I would do. That's what I would do. It has nothing to do with the DM, or even the other players. Another player needed to change character a couple of times, and the DM figured it out as a mid-session switch. Hell, in one memorable (and hilarious) instance, we were traveling through the woods only for an NPC to run by screaming, barely dressed and being chased by assassins. He described the NPC, and we all looked at the player whose next PC had just been described right before the DM Said "A'ight, Crash...time to save yourself. Roll initiative."
That was fun, and a great way to do it. But that wasn't the question I was asked. I was asked what I'd do if my own character was killed, with the implied 'violently, against your wishes/without story scripting' added on. The answer is that I'd mute my microphone and sit my dead ass out until the story found a way to introduce a replacement. If we're ass-deep in a Thing and there's NPCs around, I may ask the DM if I could run one of the NPCs as a placeholder just to keep going, but I'm just as likely not to do that. Either way.
For me? Character death is supposed to be awful. It's supposed to be wrenching, terrible, provoke all kinds of nasty negative emotions, get me super upset and feeling down. If it didn't do those things, then it wouldn't be doing its job. Death is horrific. Brutal. And in Star's case, extremely final. Star is the de facto leader of her group (to hear the paladin tell it, anyways), and the younger sister of one of the other PCs. If she goes down the way her curse would force her to go down, it would rock the whole party. I wouldn't demean or cheapen that by popping up with a brand new PC three minutes later. That's not the story any of us want to tell.
People (mostly Sposta) wanted to know what I would do. That's what I would do. It has nothing to do with the DM, or even the other players. Another player needed to change character a couple of times, and the DM figured it out as a mid-session switch. Hell, in one memorable (and hilarious) instance, we were traveling through the woods only for an NPC to run by screaming, barely dressed and being chased by assassins. He described the NPC, and we all looked at the player whose next PC had just been described right before the DM Said "A'ight, Crash...time to save yourself. Roll initiative."
That was fun, and a great way to do it. But that wasn't the question I was asked. I was asked what I'd do if my own character was killed, with the implied 'violently, against your wishes/without story scripting' added on. The answer is that I'd mute my microphone and sit my dead ass out until the story found a way to introduce a replacement. If we're ass-deep in a Thing and there's NPCs around, I may ask the DM if I could run one of the NPCs as a placeholder just to keep going, but I'm just as likely not to do that. Either way.
For me? Character death is supposed to be awful. It's supposed to be wrenching, terrible, provoke all kinds of nasty negative emotions, get me super upset and feeling down. If it didn't do those things, then it wouldn't be doing its job. Death is horrific. Brutal. And in Star's case, extremely final. Star is the de facto leader of her group (to hear the paladin tell it, anyways), and the younger sister of one of the other PCs. If she goes down the way her curse would force her to go down, it would rock the whole party. I wouldn't demean or cheapen that by popping up with a brand new PC three minutes later. That's not the story any of us want to tell.
If you feel it is necessary for you to sit out subsequent sessions, while the rest of the party handles death the standard manner (yeah, there is a fairly universal method of handling char death for subsequent sessions), this is all on you. Once again, I have NEVER heard of such a thing. Players upset and not playing for a couple sessions because they are in a huff. Yeah, but that is pure emotion. But what you are describing is NOT that.
But this strays so far from my original thrust. Start a thread about that.
I did try to start a less hostile thread for discussing the merits and demerits of rolled vs. fixed, but that one got sidetracked into accusations and counter-accusations just as quickly.
I did try to start a less hostile thread for discussing the merits and demerits of rolled vs. fixed, but that one got sidetracked into accusations and counter-accusations just as quickly.
Mlegh.
Also I hate when people say that using a guide to help you build a character is bad....it gives you ideas on what to expect for the build and I think its helpful in a lot of ways.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
True, but the character didn’t start out “bespoke,” they started out as meat. The ones that survived past 5th-level became “bespoke.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Ahh... but you see that’s what it was back then. Way back when, this is exactly what the original concept of an RPG was.
Ahh, but you see, not everyone agrees with those things being paramount to the Role-Playing part, some see all of that as rather superfluous.
And not everybody agrees that both are necessary for an ideal experience.
And “tradition” hasn’t said a damn word about it. It’s just that there are people who don’t agree with you. And it appears in your mind that makes us “wrong.”
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
@Sposta:
First of all, it's fine. While I appreciate it, I make a point not to throw my gender issues in people's faces so long as they don't make a point of deliberately poking at those issues. BL wasn't doing that, so he's good.
Second of all, I didn't actually see that post BL quoted. Work issues -_-. Apologies. That said, you've asked me a few times now, as the apparently official spokesperson for 'Bespoke' character creation, what I would do if my bespoke character was killed. Let me answer, since it may help.
Obviously it depends in part on the circumstances of the death, but for this we'll assume the most common cause - violent death in battle. Were that to happen? My DM would retire the sheet to Inactive status in the campaign, and I would begin working with the DM to figure out the next character. I have a few half-finished ideas waiting in the wings in case of just such an eventuality, as my character is currently laboring under a curse that makes it fundamentally impossible to resurrect her should she be killed. I would likely miss a couple of sessions, possibly however many sessions are left before the party resolves its current arc/assignment, and then the DM would figure out a way to get whichever new character I create into the story. On my own time I might have a little bit of a cry because I'm deeply attached to Star, and I might crack some bittersweet jokes to the rest of the group about holding her wake on the next convenient weekend. But die she would, and her death would be absolutely horrific due to said curse.
Nevertheless. The short answer is "if my character dies? She dies, and I sit sessions out until the story's right to bring in the next character." No muss or fuss, no blaming-the-DM, no begging for reprieve. Simply a final salute to a fallen friend, memories for the future, and a new sheet for when I get to play next.
Does that clear anything up?
Please do not contact or message me.
I just watched a 12 minute run through of the original source book for 5 Torches. There appear to be a number of additional source books, but no modules. The odds are getting better every day I am starting up a new campaign, with a max of 3 players, and the 2 confirmed are both DM's whose games I have played in (I hate Covid so much). I would really like to try to marry the OSR with 5e, at least from the narration portion as you have described. These are all experienced players, who run very loose with the rules campaigns (one runs a 37 point buy (no typo), and that was after me pleading with him to cut back my Paladin's stat block, and the group at 8th level trashing his Adult Black Dragon equivalent). They both know I am running a tighter game, with 27 point buy, PHB and XGTE only. I think it would be refreshing for the players and me to hash out any changes that might take the game back more to OSR, but primarily in narration and non-combat encounters.
But that is more on me, as a DM, to provide the skeleton to affix the meat to.
I want to see if I understand this correctly.
a. You have no completed back up char ready to go, if your current char dies.
b. You would not only sit out the rest of that session, but potentially several others, while you work with the DM to craft a new char.
c. It may take several sessions until your DM can "fit your new char" into the narrative of the game.
Yuriel. This is not gatekeeping. This is not an attack. Get yourself out of that game, away from that table, as quickly as you can. If that is the mindset at your table, shared by all at the table, you are indeed in a campaign and sitting with people far more brutal (and I mean the people, not the chars) than any of we Old School Psychopaths. I have NEVER heard of such real life conditions at a table. NEVER.
Corrections.
A.) I have between two to thirty 'completed characters' ready to serve as backups, depending on what goes down. The campaign is set in a friend's homebrew world with very different cosmology than Faerun, so everything requires adjustment, but I have options.
B.) I would voluntarily sit out that session (or more likely simply go on mute and listen/spectate), because I got my fool ass killed and dead gals don't get to play D&D.
C.) Again - I would voluntarily sit out or spectate sessions until my new character is introduced, because I respect the story the DM and our team is telling more than to say "Oh noes, Star's dead! Oh, gosh, look at that - Kherryn was hiding under Star's corpse, we have a new friend now!" I would want the death of the previous character to carry the weight and gravitas it deserves, and for the team to find the new character something resembling organically. I am willing to sacrifice active playtime to achieve those goals.
Those are not things the DM has told me would happen to me. Those are things I would tell the DM I'm doing. He's aware of my backups; the work we'd need to do would be more in the finalization stage than anything else. And in the interim? Dead people don't get to play D&D. They get to listen, if they're lucky.
Character death absolutely sucks rocks. That's one of many reasons characters should strive to avoid dying, if at all possible.
Please do not contact or message me.
Roleplaying is about a lot of different things, to a lot of different people. It's actually quite normal to disagree about it.
We’re so far off topic it’s not even funny.
Pre-3rd edition D&D had fewer cross-class/universal mechanics. Third ed was the first, certainly when looking at the core rules, with a comprehensive skill system that made (with a few class exclusive exceptions) every skill available to every class, for instance. I recall a lot of houseruling (or plain hand-waving) regarding stealth since that was only defined as a thief skill in the AD&D PHB. That impacted the expectations about how certain challeges could be overcome and by who a lot.
A perhaps less contentious distinction between 20th and 21st century D&D is that the latter is more sandboxy. The former isn't necessarily railroad central or even linear, but I don't recall anything like Rime of the Frostmaiden among the earlier editions' published modules and homegrown campaigns (this goes for a lot of campaigns I see in podcasts or streamed as well) seem to have evolved to be more player driven than they used to be. The DM's still in charge, but it used to be the players shaped the story while the DM steered - players nowadays grab a (minority) share in the steering as well. Part of that is probably due to characters being more than their class now (see the first point above), another part that the 'grist for the mill' notion of early editions towards PCs described by others has almost completely disappeared.
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
To get this thread back on track, imma just say when I was just a fledgling adventurer, I literally just used 4d6 to get them sweet, sweet 18's
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Just throwing a question out here, how can I get a char killed off in a fair way that feels organic?
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Cuz I got a monk I really want to die
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
Thanks for the honesty. Most won't say that. As for killing your char off, if you want to start up a new one, most DM are happy enough to have your current one ride off into the sunset. I have known the occasional DM to take your char, living OR dead, and bring it back at a later as an NPC. But the dead ones, yeah, typically that means real trouble for the party.
Talk with your DM, out of game, about what you would like to do.
Yuriel, are you saying that your method is unique to your table?
Thanks, these days I use SA
Mystic v3 should be official, nuff said.
People (mostly Sposta) wanted to know what I would do. That's what I would do. It has nothing to do with the DM, or even the other players. Another player needed to change character a couple of times, and the DM figured it out as a mid-session switch. Hell, in one memorable (and hilarious) instance, we were traveling through the woods only for an NPC to run by screaming, barely dressed and being chased by assassins. He described the NPC, and we all looked at the player whose next PC had just been described right before the DM Said "A'ight, Crash...time to save yourself. Roll initiative."
That was fun, and a great way to do it. But that wasn't the question I was asked. I was asked what I'd do if my own character was killed, with the implied 'violently, against your wishes/without story scripting' added on. The answer is that I'd mute my microphone and sit my dead ass out until the story found a way to introduce a replacement. If we're ass-deep in a Thing and there's NPCs around, I may ask the DM if I could run one of the NPCs as a placeholder just to keep going, but I'm just as likely not to do that. Either way.
For me? Character death is supposed to be awful. It's supposed to be wrenching, terrible, provoke all kinds of nasty negative emotions, get me super upset and feeling down. If it didn't do those things, then it wouldn't be doing its job. Death is horrific. Brutal. And in Star's case, extremely final. Star is the de facto leader of her group (to hear the paladin tell it, anyways), and the younger sister of one of the other PCs. If she goes down the way her curse would force her to go down, it would rock the whole party. I wouldn't demean or cheapen that by popping up with a brand new PC three minutes later. That's not the story any of us want to tell.
Please do not contact or message me.
If you feel it is necessary for you to sit out subsequent sessions, while the rest of the party handles death the standard manner (yeah, there is a fairly universal method of handling char death for subsequent sessions), this is all on you. Once again, I have NEVER heard of such a thing. Players upset and not playing for a couple sessions because they are in a huff. Yeah, but that is pure emotion. But what you are describing is NOT that.
But this strays so far from my original thrust. Start a thread about that.
So can there possible be more to be said in this thread? The thread started out feeling very hostile and toxic, and honestly, it still feels that way.
Altrazin Aghanes - Wizard/Fighter
Varpulis Windhowl - Fighter
Skolson Demjon - Cleric/Fighter
I did try to start a less hostile thread for discussing the merits and demerits of rolled vs. fixed, but that one got sidetracked into accusations and counter-accusations just as quickly.
Mlegh.
Please do not contact or message me.
Also I hate when people say that using a guide to help you build a character is bad....it gives you ideas on what to expect for the build and I think its helpful in a lot of ways.