It's been a day since this "clarification" and 3+ days since the initial announcement.
Hey DnD Beyond staff, you've probably gathered some significant feedback to this change by now. Do you have a response beyond "we're listening to you"? Any consideration at all for the people who weren't planning to update rules before you forced us into it?
It's unlikely that the relevant decision makers are in their offices at the moment. I expect they'll have a meeting on Monday which will probably fail to come to a decision (because, frankly, no good fix exists; they need to have a 2024 compatible character creator available by the time the PHB launches, that's really non-negotiable, and there just isn't enough time to create an alternative to the path they're currently on), resulting in some sort of announcement that won't make anyone happy sometime later.
At this point they should just delay the dndbeyond updates until the monster manual comes out next year. Will save them so much headache and give them time to make the tool actually work for everyone. Nobody would have an issue with it if they were transparent with the community and said they needed more time to make sure no existing characters break
So then what about all of us that bought the 2024 update and expect it to be ready to rock on release day? You want to turn around and do to us what you're saying is being done to you?
The difference is nothing is going to irrevocably become broken and unusable if they delayed this. I bet most dndbeyond users don't even know there's a new edition of the game coming out and have no idea that next week their existing character sheets are gonna be broken until the show up for their weekly game and find out everything is changed, and basically wreck their entire experience
Unless they've had their heads buried in sand, they know there's a 2024 update coming. It's literally on the front page of the website.
And nothing's being broken, it's being updated. It's just being updated in a way people dislike, which I understand, but that doesn't mean that preventing us from getting what we paid for would be a better deal than preventing you from losing what you paid for. There are solutions available, I just hope they can implement one.
I bet the way most of the user base uses the website is they open the site once a week, straight to their character sheet, when their session starts, and close it when it ends, and not look at it again for another week unless they are levelling up. Or they use the mobile app. In either case they aren't going to the home page or the forums or the changelog so I imagine there's maybe like 50 thousand users that are aware stuff is gonna change overnight come Wednesday but millions who have no clue anything is even going on
And I bet that DDB / WotC has actual user metrics and they've been advertising the 2024 update for months all over everything. I'm not saying this is the way they should be implementing things on DDB but I am saying that they probably know how people hit their site and have been crafting messages to make sure folks know. After all, they want to sell books.
They've been advertising it for months as an *optional* update, not a forced upgrade. I doubt more than a handful are expecting their sheets to be changed for them on the 3rd.
They've been advertising it for months as an *optional* update, not a forced upgrade. I doubt more than a handful are expecting their sheets to be changed for them on the 3rd.
Anecdotally I only found out because one of my WoW guildies said something off-hand yesterday, and I only checked because I thought he'd misunderstood something because the powers that be couldn't possibly be that stupid. So I think it's more than fair to assume there is a large swath of users who are only going to find out after the changes are implemented.
They've been advertising it for months as an *optional* update, not a forced upgrade. I doubt more than a handful are expecting their sheets to be changed for them on the 3rd.
Anecdotally I only found out because one of my WoW guildies said something off-hand yesterday, and I only checked because I thought he'd misunderstood something because the powers that be couldn't possibly be that stupid. So I think it's more than fair to assume there is a large swath of users who are only going to find out after the changes are implemented.
No offense to you, but one person does not a "large swath" make. That being said, I get your point.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
It is NOT better. What if we have an ongoing campaign using the 2014 rules and have no intention of switching to the new ones. Then all of a sudden all of the character sheets change to all of the new spells and class features and all the other garbage and we have to either manually switch them back, or worse, can't even add them back to the character sheet because they still haven't clarified if the 2014 content will be usable on character sheets, just that you will still be able to "access" it. This is intentionally vague probably because they are trying to slip it through proving that once again, they think we are a community of complete and utter basement dwelling morons that are just gonna take what they give us and be happy with it. Hasbro/WotC is one of the LEAST consumer friendly companies I have ever experienced, not to mention the fact that their executives outright make fun of their own games player base and constantly insults us. I would not be giving them any money at all ever again if not for the simple fact that beyond20 makes DMing my campaigns on Roll20 about 10000000x easier.
It's been a day since this "clarification" and 3+ days since the initial announcement.
Hey DnD Beyond staff, you've probably gathered some significant feedback to this change by now. Do you have a response beyond "we're listening to you"? Any consideration at all for the people who weren't planning to update rules before you forced us into it?
It's unlikely that the relevant decision makers are in their offices at the moment. I expect they'll have a meeting on Monday which will probably fail to come to a decision (because, frankly, no good fix exists; they need to have a 2024 compatible character creator available by the time the PHB launches, that's really non-negotiable, and there just isn't enough time to create an alternative to the path they're currently on), resulting in some sort of announcement that won't make anyone happy sometime later.
At this point they should just delay the dndbeyond updates until the monster manual comes out next year. Will save them so much headache and give them time to make the tool actually work for everyone. Nobody would have an issue with it if they were transparent with the community and said they needed more time to make sure no existing characters break
So then what about all of us that bought the 2024 update and expect it to be ready to rock on release day? You want to turn around and do to us what you're saying is being done to you?
You didn't buy anything. You pre-ordered it. Not the same. No one is taking away something that you're currently using.
People pre-ordered the limited edition phb but are forced to wait because of some unforseen problem. Same deal. Pre-order dates are never guaranteed for this reason. That's why yours wasn't either...
They've been advertising it for months as an *optional* update, not a forced upgrade. I doubt more than a handful are expecting their sheets to be changed for them on the 3rd.
Anecdotally I only found out because one of my WoW guildies said something off-hand yesterday, and I only checked because I thought he'd misunderstood something because the powers that be couldn't possibly be that stupid. So I think it's more than fair to assume there is a large swath of users who are only going to find out after the changes are implemented.
No offense to you, but one person does not a "large swath" make. That being said, I get your point.
I'm on a few West Marches servers where the majority found out only because of me paying attention to the news posts, and I'm not part of the leadership. Most people aren't reading the news posts, updates, or forums. There's a few hundred right there, and that's just one person here they're connected to. When you consider how many more such servers are out there and aren't seeing this (especially since much of this info is ONLY being communicated via the forums) you reach swath levels.
Then all of a sudden all of the character sheets change to all of the new spells and class features and all the other garbage and we have to either manually switch them back,
we have to either manually switch them back, or worse, can't even add them back to the character sheet because they still haven't clarified if the 2014 content will be usable on character sheets, just that you will still be able to "access" it. This is intentionally vague probably because they are trying to slip it through proving that once again, they think we are a community of complete and utter basement dwelling morons that are just gonna take what they give us and be happy with it.
I mean... the change is absolutely disgusting, but in fairness to them, they aren't being vague: the things that are auto-updated, you CANNOT change them back. They don't need to clarify it, they've made it plenty clear already.
This doesn't make the changes any better. It's still making it nigh impossible to use the app to play using the 5E.14 ruleset. Why would I use the app if I have to reference the compendium? The entire USP of the app is that the spells are accessible in one place, now it's actually worse than just using a book or searching the spell on google.
Getting updated spells and magic items for free, without giving them a dime for it, does make the changes better. A lot better. Before, it seemed as though you were just up the creek without a paddle and had to homebrew to even make your character sheet functional. Now, it will just be replaced with the most up to date versions. Very different and much better.
Not if we have no use or interest in the 2024 stuff. Then its just a downgrade.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
Perspective is everything. You made a point from the free content upgrade. Yes that is better from THAT perspective, I agree.
But - from the point of view of not being able to use the digital toolset that we have paid for then that is NOT better.
I would prefer a toggle at the campaign level 2014 or 2024, then all chars in that campaign follow those rulesets. People with existing content can then use it with no disruption to their games, and also people who want to play with the revised content can also do so. Admittedly, this is more work for the devs, but I suspect that given an easy toggle we would find most players would gravitate to the new ruleset for new games. My group will, but we do want to finish the existing game first under set 2014 rules.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
When that replacement is objectively the ONLY reason we're losing what we wanted in the first place... No. No, it's not.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
I'd argue that it's not better if you had no interest in the replacement.
I don't like Coke, I think it tastes flat, I prefer Pepsi. If I buy a 12-pack of Pepsi and open the box to find Coke I'm not going to be happy about it and I'm going to complain. If the store then says 'Yeah we're not offering Pepsi anymore, all the cans in the Pepsi boxes will be Coke from now on, but you can still buy the boxes' that's not better, that's actively worse than just telling me the thing I wanted and bought isn't being offered anymore.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
When that replacement is objectively the ONLY reason we're losing what we wanted in the first place... No. No, it's not.
2014 users don't want the "free updated spells and magic items." We want the content we PAID for.
Forcing the 2024 version down our throats is NOT better.
How is getting content for free without paying for it NOT BETTER than losing the old content and getting nothing?
Again, I outlined why it is better than the previous understanding. Your argument on why it is not better really is just you arguing why you do not like it.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
I'd argue that it's not better if you had no interest in the replacement.
I don't like Coke, I think it tastes flat, I prefer Pepsi. If I buy a 12-pack of Pepsi and open the box to find Coke I'm not going to be happy about it and I'm going to complain. If the store then says 'Yeah we're not offering Pepsi anymore, all the cans in the Pepsi boxes will be Coke from now on, but you can still buy the boxes' that's not better, that's actively worse than just telling me the thing I wanted and bought isn't being offered anymore.
Yes, he's also acknowledged multiple times that he understands that some people have decided they'd rather have nothing at all rather than the replacement. I'm not sure why everyone keeps harping on the guy.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Grant K. Smith A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien "Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Yes, he's also acknowledged multiple times that he understands that some people have decided they'd rather have nothing at all rather than the replacement. I'm not sure why everyone keeps harping on the guy.
Who is saying we'd rather have nothing at all?
I, for one, would rather have the stuff that I paid for and currently make use of. And the option to change to the 2024 rules for a future campaign if I so desire.
Exactly. It's not that we don't want the new stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with buying all the new stuff.
The issue has always been that D&D Beyond is actively stealing from their userbase with this change.
There's no valid argument against the statement that they are. They sold us tool access with the books and they're actively revoking it, full stop. It doesn't matter what they give us, they're stealing what we bought from us.
Everyone that says "no, it's not better" is essentially saying they'd rather have (nothing at all) than (not the content they paid for, but at the very least they get a replacement).
If you can't understand that, you're blinded by rage and unable to see the point they're trying to make.
I, for one, would rather have the stuff that I paid for and currently make use of. And the option to change to the 2024 rules for a future campaign if I so desire.
Ikr... but DDB said "no, that's not an option, we are NOT letting you have what you paid for".
It is NOT better. What if we have an ongoing campaign using the 2014 rules and have no intention of switching to the new ones. Then all of a sudden all of the character sheets change to all of the new spells and class features and all the other garbage and we have to either manually switch them back, or worse, can't even add them back to the character sheet because they still haven't clarified if the 2014 content will be usable on character sheets, just that you will still be able to "access" it. This is intentionally vague probably because they are trying to slip it through proving that once again, they think we are a community of complete and utter basement dwelling morons that are just gonna take what they give us and be happy with it. Hasbro/WotC is one of the LEAST consumer friendly companies I have ever experienced, not to mention the fact that their executives outright make fun of their own games player base and constantly insults us. I would not be giving them any money at all ever again if not for the simple fact that beyond20 makes DMing my campaigns on Roll20 about 10000000x easier.
There are several here who have beaten you to this point and I was willing to cede ground here that there are some hardliner 2014 players who would prefer to not have access to the new versions of the spells, even if they would not be allowed to maintain access to the 2014 rules in the toolset. Some people would indeed rather have nothing than something and those people, I imagine, will delete their accounts.
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
That is not what has happened, so the analogy, just like so many used before yours, has failed. It is more like they took your cool toy and replaced it with their updated version that is nearly identical in every way, but it doesn't have any chips in the paint. You liked those chips in the paint though, because it added character. Your feelings on the change are not being disputed, but rather, you entire understanding of what I had even been talking about.
Perspective is everything. You made a point from the free content upgrade. Yes that is better from THAT perspective, I agree.
But - from the point of view of not being able to use the digital toolset that we have paid for then that is NOT better.
I would prefer a toggle at the campaign level 2014 or 2024, then all chars in that campaign follow those rulesets. People with existing content can then use it with no disruption to their games, and also people who want to play with the revised content can also do so. Admittedly, this is more work for the devs, but I suspect that given an easy toggle we would find most players would gravitate to the new ruleset for new games. My group will, but we do want to finish the existing game first under set 2014 rules.
Your second paragraph has nothing to do with any argument I have made, so it, at least as far as my argument is concerned, is irrelevant.
I don't disagree with your second point, however. It seems I have to say this every single time I post because people seem to think that because I disagree with one point, I must disagree with all points. That is not correct.
They've been advertising it for months as an *optional* update, not a forced upgrade. I doubt more than a handful are expecting their sheets to be changed for them on the 3rd.
Are you saying the 2024 ruleset is a whole new edition?
Anecdotally I only found out because one of my WoW guildies said something off-hand yesterday, and I only checked because I thought he'd misunderstood something because the powers that be couldn't possibly be that stupid. So I think it's more than fair to assume there is a large swath of users who are only going to find out after the changes are implemented.
No offense to you, but one person does not a "large swath" make. That being said, I get your point.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
It is NOT better. What if we have an ongoing campaign using the 2014 rules and have no intention of switching to the new ones. Then all of a sudden all of the character sheets change to all of the new spells and class features and all the other garbage and we have to either manually switch them back, or worse, can't even add them back to the character sheet because they still haven't clarified if the 2014 content will be usable on character sheets, just that you will still be able to "access" it. This is intentionally vague probably because they are trying to slip it through proving that once again, they think we are a community of complete and utter basement dwelling morons that are just gonna take what they give us and be happy with it. Hasbro/WotC is one of the LEAST consumer friendly companies I have ever experienced, not to mention the fact that their executives outright make fun of their own games player base and constantly insults us. I would not be giving them any money at all ever again if not for the simple fact that beyond20 makes DMing my campaigns on Roll20 about 10000000x easier.
You didn't buy anything. You pre-ordered it. Not the same. No one is taking away something that you're currently using.
People pre-ordered the limited edition phb but are forced to wait because of some unforseen problem. Same deal. Pre-order dates are never guaranteed for this reason. That's why yours wasn't either...
I'm on a few West Marches servers where the majority found out only because of me paying attention to the news posts, and I'm not part of the leadership. Most people aren't reading the news posts, updates, or forums. There's a few hundred right there, and that's just one person here they're connected to. When you consider how many more such servers are out there and aren't seeing this (especially since much of this info is ONLY being communicated via the forums) you reach swath levels.
The class features themselves won't change.
I mean... the change is absolutely disgusting, but in fairness to them, they aren't being vague: the things that are auto-updated, you CANNOT change them back. They don't need to clarify it, they've made it plenty clear already.
What's needed is for them to rectify it.
Not if we have no use or interest in the 2024 stuff. Then its just a downgrade.
Gospel
"hey...we are taking away that kewl toy of yours and giving you free feces....isnt that BETTER?!?!?!" Thats the question you are asking...and cant see that you are asking....
Its obvious YOU like the 2024 stuff. few others do.
Perspective is everything. You made a point from the free content upgrade. Yes that is better from THAT perspective, I agree.
But - from the point of view of not being able to use the digital toolset that we have paid for then that is NOT better.
I would prefer a toggle at the campaign level 2014 or 2024, then all chars in that campaign follow those rulesets. People with existing content can then use it with no disruption to their games, and also people who want to play with the revised content can also do so. Admittedly, this is more work for the devs, but I suspect that given an easy toggle we would find most players would gravitate to the new ruleset for new games. My group will, but we do want to finish the existing game first under set 2014 rules.
Life's hard - get a helmet!
He has only been arguing that replacing something is better than just taking something away even if you don't love the replacement.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
When that replacement is objectively the ONLY reason we're losing what we wanted in the first place... No. No, it's not.
I'd argue that it's not better if you had no interest in the replacement.
I don't like Coke, I think it tastes flat, I prefer Pepsi. If I buy a 12-pack of Pepsi and open the box to find Coke I'm not going to be happy about it and I'm going to complain. If the store then says 'Yeah we're not offering Pepsi anymore, all the cans in the Pepsi boxes will be Coke from now on, but you can still buy the boxes' that's not better, that's actively worse than just telling me the thing I wanted and bought isn't being offered anymore.
Yes, he's also acknowledged multiple times that he understands that some people have decided they'd rather have nothing at all rather than the replacement. I'm not sure why everyone keeps harping on the guy.
Grant K. Smith
A+, Network+, MCP x 2, BSIT/VC, MIS
Software Engineer & Dungeon Master
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger." - J. R. R. Tolkien
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup" - Anonymous
Who is saying we'd rather have nothing at all?
I, for one, would rather have the stuff that I paid for and currently make use of. And the option to change to the 2024 rules for a future campaign if I so desire.
Exactly. It's not that we don't want the new stuff. And I'm perfectly fine with buying all the new stuff.
The issue has always been that D&D Beyond is actively stealing from their userbase with this change.
There's no valid argument against the statement that they are. They sold us tool access with the books and they're actively revoking it, full stop. It doesn't matter what they give us, they're stealing what we bought from us.
Everyone that says "no, it's not better" is essentially saying they'd rather have (nothing at all) than (not the content they paid for, but at the very least they get a replacement).
If you can't understand that, you're blinded by rage and unable to see the point they're trying to make.
Ikr... but DDB said "no, that's not an option, we are NOT letting you have what you paid for".
There are several here who have beaten you to this point and I was willing to cede ground here that there are some hardliner 2014 players who would prefer to not have access to the new versions of the spells, even if they would not be allowed to maintain access to the 2014 rules in the toolset. Some people would indeed rather have nothing than something and those people, I imagine, will delete their accounts.
Downgrade and 'better than nothing' are differences that are separated by an ocean.
That is not what has happened, so the analogy, just like so many used before yours, has failed. It is more like they took your cool toy and replaced it with their updated version that is nearly identical in every way, but it doesn't have any chips in the paint. You liked those chips in the paint though, because it added character. Your feelings on the change are not being disputed, but rather, you entire understanding of what I had even been talking about.
Your second paragraph has nothing to do with any argument I have made, so it, at least as far as my argument is concerned, is irrelevant.
I don't disagree with your second point, however. It seems I have to say this every single time I post because people seem to think that because I disagree with one point, I must disagree with all points. That is not correct.
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