Demons going good exists in D&D canon. The Planescape sourcebook Faces of Evil: The Fiends even noted that most other demons regarded it as "just a phase" and didn't make any special efforts to hunt down their formerly-evil kin- they were more concerned about demons who went Lawful.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think that Demons and other fiends should be almost completely evil, but given the fact that Angels and celestials can fall, why can't demons and devils have agency to rise? Sure, they're beings of evil, but they have personalities and ideals as well.
This is a solid point. In Catholic scripture, shades of the dead who have been condemned to hell are entitled to another chance during judgement day. Although demons are not traditionally formed from souls of living beings, but from angels fallen from grace, I don't see why they would be entirely exempt from a similar second judgement in a world where deities are much more fallible than in Catholic dogma. I mean, BG:DiA makes this central to the plot for Zariel. Also, no doubt many of the angels who followed Asmodeus were conned into the act, convinced that his methods were the proper way to enforce cosmic law. Imagine how pissed they'd be having to deal with Mammon's cesspit?
Yeah, demons are harder to redeem than devils or maybe Yugoloths, but I don't think it has to do with souls. Angels aren't created out of souls, are they?
Does redemption mean the character should have been demptioned once before? An entity that was created with Evil and has only known Evil as the only way, can that entity learn a new path? I like to think so, but such a journey will be a fantastic one of many trials and growth never seen more than once in an age.
In Wildemount, orcs are born with an evil curse from Gruumsh that gives them near demonic rage. They're born into evil, only know evil, and can be redeemed in Wildemount.
I like to believe this is true for demons and devils as well.
I have a DMPC orc named Forbos, that's an oath of redemption Paladin, he strives to redeem the other orcs.
I think that Demons and other fiends should be almost completely evil, but given the fact that Angels and celestials can fall, why can't demons and devils have agency to rise? Sure, they're beings of evil, but they have personalities and ideals as well.
This is a solid point. In Catholic scripture, shades of the dead who have been condemned to hell are entitled to another chance during judgement day. Although demons are not traditionally formed from souls of living beings, but from angels fallen from grace, I don't see why they would be entirely exempt from a similar second judgement in a world where deities are much more fallible than in Catholic dogma. I mean, BG:DiA makes this central to the plot for Zariel. Also, no doubt many of the angels who followed Asmodeus were conned into the act, convinced that his methods were the proper way to enforce cosmic law. Imagine how pissed they'd be having to deal with Mammon's cesspit?
Yeah, demons are harder to redeem than devils or maybe Yugoloths, but I don't think it has to do with souls. Angels aren't created out of souls, are they?
Does redemption mean the character should have been demptioned once before? An entity that was created with Evil and has only known Evil as the only way, can that entity learn a new path? I like to think so, but such a journey will be a fantastic one of many trials and growth never seen more than once in an age.
In Wildemount, orcs are born with an evil curse from Gruumsh that gives them near demonic rage. They're born into evil, only know evil, and can be redeemed in Wildemount.
I like to believe this is true for demons and devils as well.
I have a DMPC orc named Forbos, that's an oath of redemption Paladin, he strives to redeem the other orcs.
A Devil and Demon are defined largely by their alignments. What happens when they shift?
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I think that Demons and other fiends should be almost completely evil, but given the fact that Angels and celestials can fall, why can't demons and devils have agency to rise? Sure, they're beings of evil, but they have personalities and ideals as well.
This is a solid point. In Catholic scripture, shades of the dead who have been condemned to hell are entitled to another chance during judgement day. Although demons are not traditionally formed from souls of living beings, but from angels fallen from grace, I don't see why they would be entirely exempt from a similar second judgement in a world where deities are much more fallible than in Catholic dogma. I mean, BG:DiA makes this central to the plot for Zariel. Also, no doubt many of the angels who followed Asmodeus were conned into the act, convinced that his methods were the proper way to enforce cosmic law. Imagine how pissed they'd be having to deal with Mammon's cesspit?
Yeah, demons are harder to redeem than devils or maybe Yugoloths, but I don't think it has to do with souls. Angels aren't created out of souls, are they?
Does redemption mean the character should have been demptioned once before? An entity that was created with Evil and has only known Evil as the only way, can that entity learn a new path? I like to think so, but such a journey will be a fantastic one of many trials and growth never seen more than once in an age.
In Wildemount, orcs are born with an evil curse from Gruumsh that gives them near demonic rage. They're born into evil, only know evil, and can be redeemed in Wildemount.
I like to believe this is true for demons and devils as well.
I have a DMPC orc named Forbos, that's an oath of redemption Paladin, he strives to redeem the other orcs.
A Devil and Demon are defined largely by their alignments. What happens when they shift?
According to long-established D&D lore, they remain a demon or devil but now have a radically different moral outlook.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I think that Demons and other fiends should be almost completely evil, but given the fact that Angels and celestials can fall, why can't demons and devils have agency to rise? Sure, they're beings of evil, but they have personalities and ideals as well.
This is a solid point. In Catholic scripture, shades of the dead who have been condemned to hell are entitled to another chance during judgement day. Although demons are not traditionally formed from souls of living beings, but from angels fallen from grace, I don't see why they would be entirely exempt from a similar second judgement in a world where deities are much more fallible than in Catholic dogma. I mean, BG:DiA makes this central to the plot for Zariel. Also, no doubt many of the angels who followed Asmodeus were conned into the act, convinced that his methods were the proper way to enforce cosmic law. Imagine how pissed they'd be having to deal with Mammon's cesspit?
Yeah, demons are harder to redeem than devils or maybe Yugoloths, but I don't think it has to do with souls. Angels aren't created out of souls, are they?
Does redemption mean the character should have been demptioned once before? An entity that was created with Evil and has only known Evil as the only way, can that entity learn a new path? I like to think so, but such a journey will be a fantastic one of many trials and growth never seen more than once in an age.
In Wildemount, orcs are born with an evil curse from Gruumsh that gives them near demonic rage. They're born into evil, only know evil, and can be redeemed in Wildemount.
I like to believe this is true for demons and devils as well.
I have a DMPC orc named Forbos, that's an oath of redemption Paladin, he strives to redeem the other orcs.
A Devil and Demon are defined largely by their alignments. What happens when they shift?
According to long-established D&D lore, they remain a demon or devil but now have a radically different moral outlook.
There's a Balor in Wildemount that was turned into a Fey by an archfey. I think that fiends that become good don't have to change creature type, but they can. Zariel when redeemed becomes a celestial again.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I think that Demons and other fiends should be almost completely evil, but given the fact that Angels and celestials can fall, why can't demons and devils have agency to rise? Sure, they're beings of evil, but they have personalities and ideals as well.
In general a fiend that is no longer evil is no longer a fiend, and might well undergo actual transformation (there are some exceptions, but most of the fallen angels in canon have changed powers and appearance). Fiends are not evil because they're fiends, they're fiends because they're evil.
The need for 'hordes of things that can be slaughtered without guilt' is probably best solved by either using things that aren't humanoids, or by a combination of:
Not evil by birth (either chose evil, was turned evil by some curse, or is a made thing)
Avoids standard racial stereotypes ('black-skinned elves' is problematic. A cult of elves that worship an evil spider demon but are not a distinct racial group, other than possibly features like extra eyes and limbs, is less so).
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I would say they can 'attune' providing they have a backstory that lets them. E.g if asmoedus was born a devil and was always evil, i would see no way for him to attune. But zariel, a fallen angel, could attune and turn back into a celestial. My thoughts.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I would say they can 'attune' providing they have a backstory that lets them. E.g if asmoedus was born a devil and was always evil, i would see no way for him to attune. But zariel, a fallen angel, could attune and turn back into a celestial. My thoughts.
As with the example of the Fey-conversion, could a Devil created in the Hells be "attuned" with assistance.
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I would say they can 'attune' providing they have a backstory that lets them. E.g if asmoedus was born a devil and was always evil, i would see no way for him to attune. But zariel, a fallen angel, could attune and turn back into a celestial. My thoughts.
Do you mean "atone" or "attune"?
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
I would say they can 'attune' providing they have a backstory that lets them. E.g if asmoedus was born a devil and was always evil, i would see no way for him to attune. But zariel, a fallen angel, could attune and turn back into a celestial. My thoughts.
Do you mean "atone" or "attune"?
Atone.
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'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
This might be mixing threads a bit, but where do the Planes come from? They're aligned to Alignments, and their denizens trend very heavily toward those alignments, but how these Planes came to be might help me understand how those who started as Evil and have only known Evil came to be.
A measure requires two points. So without Good, Evil means nothing - it's defined by its differences from Good. If they only know Evil but also, without knowledge of Good, Evil has no meaning, what happens when they're introduced to Good?
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Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider. My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong. I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲 “It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
IIRC, it says in the PHB that if a fiend become good it’s not a fiend anymore, since fiends and celestials are the good and evil itself.
ex: Bob is a Pit Fiend, but he had a change of heart and now is Neitral Good, só since Bob is literally made of evil his whole nature and biology would change and Bob would becomes some kind of Celestial.
ex: Bob is a Pit Fiend, but he had a change of heart and now is Neitral Good, só since Bob is literally made of evil his whole nature and biology would change and Bob would becomes some kind of Celestial.
Or maybe a fey.
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Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Demons going good exists in D&D canon. The Planescape sourcebook Faces of Evil: The Fiends even noted that most other demons regarded it as "just a phase" and didn't make any special efforts to hunt down their formerly-evil kin- they were more concerned about demons who went Lawful.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Descent into Avernus spoilers:
In Avernus, you can come across a devil with brain damage that is chaotic good.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I have a DMPC orc named Forbos, that's an oath of redemption Paladin, he strives to redeem the other orcs.
A Devil and Demon are defined largely by their alignments. What happens when they shift?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
According to long-established D&D lore, they remain a demon or devil but now have a substantially different moral outlook.
According to long-established D&D lore, they remain a demon or devil but now have a radically different moral outlook.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Yeah makes sense
There's a Balor in Wildemount that was turned into a Fey by an archfey. I think that fiends that become good don't have to change creature type, but they can. Zariel when redeemed becomes a celestial again.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
In general a fiend that is no longer evil is no longer a fiend, and might well undergo actual transformation (there are some exceptions, but most of the fallen angels in canon have changed powers and appearance). Fiends are not evil because they're fiends, they're fiends because they're evil.
The need for 'hordes of things that can be slaughtered without guilt' is probably best solved by either using things that aren't humanoids, or by a combination of:
(This is a transfer from a thread we started derailing.)
If a Celestial can fall, can a Fiend "rise"?
Why or why not?
If they can rise, how and what happens if they do?
Discus! [sic]
EDIT: Ooh! Forum magic! Replies in other thread have been moved above.
Thanks mysterious Forum Fey! (I'm guessing they're Fey.)
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
I would say they can 'attune' providing they have a backstory that lets them. E.g if asmoedus was born a devil and was always evil, i would see no way for him to attune. But zariel, a fallen angel, could attune and turn back into a celestial. My thoughts.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
As with the example of the Fey-conversion, could a Devil created in the Hells be "attuned" with assistance.
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
Do you mean "atone" or "attune"?
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Also, there are multiple backstories for Asmodeus, and no one really knows which one is correct. In one version he was a fallen celestial.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I wouldn't be surprised if older editions said he was a fallen angel, to make him even more similar to Lucifer.
A fool pulls the leaves. A brute chops the trunk. A sage digs the roots.
My Improved Lineage System
IIRC, he wasn't an angel, but just a powerful celestial.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
I definitely think it should be harder for fiends to become good than celestials to become bad.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Atone.
'The Cleverness of mushrooms always surprises me!' - Ivern Bramblefoot.
I'll worldbuild for your DnD games!
Just a D&D enjoyer, check out my fiverr page if you need any worldbuilding done for ya!
This might be mixing threads a bit, but where do the Planes come from? They're aligned to Alignments, and their denizens trend very heavily toward those alignments, but how these Planes came to be might help me understand how those who started as Evil and have only known Evil came to be.
A measure requires two points. So without Good, Evil means nothing - it's defined by its differences from Good. If they only know Evil but also, without knowledge of Good, Evil has no meaning, what happens when they're introduced to Good?
Human. Male. Possibly. Don't be a divider.
My characters' backgrounds are written like instruction manuals rather than stories. My opinion and preferences don't mean you're wrong.
I am 99.7603% convinced that the digital dice are messing with me. I roll high when nobody's looking and low when anyone else can see.🎲
“It's a bit early to be thinking about an epitaph. No?” will be my epitaph.
IIRC, it says in the PHB that if a fiend become good it’s not a fiend anymore, since fiends and celestials are the good and evil itself.
ex: Bob is a Pit Fiend, but he had a change of heart and now is Neitral Good, só since Bob is literally made of evil his whole nature and biology would change and Bob would becomes some kind of Celestial.
There's a devil in BG:DiA that is good, so that statement seems to be false.
Or maybe a fey.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms