Is it normal for players to be adversarial to the DM?
I've been DM'ing for our group just short of a year now and out of 5 players I have one who is constantly doing what I would call "metagaming" where he reads ahead on rules and character builds so that he can min max (Not really a big problem) but then because he knows the rules he intentionally tries to break them or get away with things hoping I won't catch on. But then if I do Hold to the rules he will pull out some rule that existed in 2E or 4E as to why he should be allowed to basically do what he wants. As a DM I want the game to be fun for all involved and for everyone to play the character they want. But he is the only one constantly trying to play outside the world and narrative I'm trying to build by constantly assuming he gets the best of anything that exists in the game.
For example he wants X, Y and Z magical items cause they will super buff his character. And he gets pissed when the local town trader doesn't have these magical items. (They aren't super rare, they're either uncommon or rare) but my input is that the town trader isn't a vending machine for magical items. it just wouldn't make sense for them to be a Wal-Mart of the magical items in the PHB or DMG.
Or he unlocked Polymorph and immediately tried to turn himself into a T-rex. And I had a problem with that because in this world his character would have no idea or encounters with a T-rex to even know what it was. But he protested saying the T-rex is a beast in the DMG and and that Ploymorph doesn't say he has to have encountered it.
So if it makes sense I feel like a character is being adversarial to me, and I need some advise on managing his expectations without ruining the game for everyone else. the other players like the narrative and the interactions. He just usually wants to rob all the merchants and kill anyone who gets in his way and buy every magical item he likes in the PHB.
Some of what you are referring to as “metagaming” most folks would more commonly call “Powergaming/Munchkinism,” “Rules Lawyering,” “Backseat DMing,” and “Murder Hoboing,” which, combined with “metagaming” all culminate in what is known as “Being a Wangrod.” (At least that’s how it is known when we are trying to be polite about it. 🤨) I mention it because they are different issues that affect your role as DM in different ways.
Metagaming is a term usually applied to situations in which a player has their character act on knowledge that the character would not have, but the player does have. For example, the Player knows the stats for a T-Rex from the book, but his character has absolutely no realistic possibility of even knowing what a T-Rex might be or have been on tryout world or any other. That’s “metagaming” through and through.
The player’s min/maxing would not normally be referred to as metagaming, people have other dirty words for that like “powergaming.” Mind you, powergaming in and of itself is not an issue as long as intra-party balance is not thrown out of wack. If everyone at the table is powergaming then it isn’t a problem. Or, if the DM is adept at reading the situation and adjusting for it by granting the other PC‘s boons (like additional feats), or magic items to compensate for the imminent imbalance, then the problem is mitigated. Admittedly that solution comes at the cost of the DM’s time, thought, and effort, but it comes with the job. However, when one player is throwing the whole party balance off kilter, that’s when people use the extra dirty term “munchkinism.” As to his wanting all of the magic items he’s requesting to complete his “build” for the character, you can point blank tell him that the DMG specifically recommends that DM’s do not have merchants who sell magic items in their campaigns. (In part to specifically preclude crap like your player is trying to pull.) The rules are designed to prevent there being a “Magic Item Wal-Mart.” In fact, the rules for trying to buy and sell magic items are specifically designed to be a pain in the @$$ so that if they really, really stick it out and accept the inevitable “complications” (like getting robbed), then they have genuinely earned that purchase/sale. So you can tell him he should count himself lucky that you are going directly against RAW/RAI by including those merchants at all and if he doesn’t like it then there will no longer be any magic item merchants at all. Period. Fin. End of discussion.
I personally also chose to ignore that recommendation. However I made it a point to mention repeatedly that those merchants (dubbed “brokers”) operate like Pawn/Consignment shops so inventory is guaranteed to be unpredictable and subject to changes without notice. (So far that has successfully prevented that kind of “order placing” behavior like your player is trying to pull, and any potential “being pissed.” And there are no Brokers in small towns, only major towns and cities would have a large enough population of individuals who are wealthy enough to purchase those wares. And even major cities typically only have two fair sized brokers at most, a major town or small city might only have one broker (or none) depending on how many adventures pass through on a regular basis.
When a player actively and openly argues with the DM like your player is doing, that is usually called “rules lawyering.” If that player is a DM for another campaign it sometimes gets called “backseat DMing. (There is a bit more of a difference, but there is also significant overlap in the behaviors.) I mean, if it only happens a little bit and the player ultimately accepts the DM’s ruling (or genuinely helps the DM change their mind) then that’s not really a problem. That’s just a player advocating for their idea, opinion, or point of view which is perfectly normal and understandable. (Heck, I personally wouldn’t even call that “arguing” so much as discussing or perhaps debating.) But if the player keeps on going until the discussion does become actual “arguing” and the player refuses to accept the DM’s decision, that’s a problem. As to anything he says about any edition of D&D other than this current edition, tell him to blow it out his ear. None of it is relevant anymore from a “rules” standpoint, and even a lot of the lore has shifted significantly between editions.
Robbing merchants and killing anyone who gets in his way is literally the exact definition of a “murder hobo.” That one is really very cut and dry. It is such a prime example of murder hoboing that I added two additional (and wholly unnecessary) sentences so this can technically qualify as a paragraph instead of being a single sentence floating in the middle here all by itself.
Please take note, absolutely none of those behaviors were attributed to “the Character” at all, but instead are problems caused by “the Player.” So you aren’t having any in-game issues with an “adversarial character,” you are having out-of-game problems with the player themself. Even if they switched to a different character, you would still have the same problem because you have a “problem player,” aka a “wangrod.” As my friend BioWizard is fond of saying, “you can’t address an OOG problem with an IG solution. There is no interaction that anything or anyone can have with that character which could possibly help.
Realistically, the only real solution that can have any actual chance of success is to have a conversation with that player, point out what he is doing which is effing up the game for others (like yourself). Then tell him to either stop acting like such a wangrod or you will have to kick him out of the campaign. That conversation will most likely suck for you, and I feel bad for you from a sense of empathy. However, you only have two options:
Have that hard conversation and genuinely be prepared to follow through on your threat to boot him if he doesn’t learn to act right.
Accept his behavior indefinitely in silence, and endure it. (Although if his behavior is also an issue to the other players then they might find a less inhospitable campaign in which to spend their time.)
Remember, as DM you are also a player and your fun matters too, especially considering how darned much work goes into DMing.
Here is a resource you may find useful when preparing yourself to have that hard conversation:
(No joke, that whole series is the best “catch-all” advice I can give any DM for just about any situation.)
Sposta has put it perfectly. This is behavior that is not normal for the game, nor should it be normalized as it takes the fun away from you and everyone else, even if they are too polite to say anything.
Have that talk. Don't tell anyone else about it (and if they say anything about his behavior, just let them know that you'll have a talk and leave it at that), and be gentle but firm that his behavior as a player needs to change. And yes, hard as it is, be fully and 100% completely prepared to remove him from the game if he refuses to change. Speaking from experience, it *will* suck, but ultimately it's the best decision in the long run to make if it comes to it.
If he robs and murders people then there isn't really a reason why anyone would sell him anything. Especially not items that makes it easier for him to rob and mruder people.
Besides that, IamSposta gave some really good advice.
All great advice. Thank you for the input. I guess the conversation will have to happen, while I don't mind him knowing the rules or anyone for that matter as it can help me as a DM, It is a problem when he knows the rules specifically to try and bend/break them. So the convo will happen. I really cant take it anymore as it is also pissing off the other players at the table. Thank you everyone for the responses. Its truly great that there are so many active and responsive people out here to help us run the game.
all the advice above is spot on, I will say I do have magic item vendors in my world, every major town has at least one and most cities have any number. But they are not chock full of items the party would like, they might have magical trinkets, a music box that plays at sundown every day, or a Crystaline canary in a cage that sings along if someone whistles. They may have 1-2 items from the DMG (either rolled for or on the loot table, or just picked by me) and the odds are these items might be overpriced or already sold and on hold.
However there is another option. You have just 1 magic shop, that shop sits on a separate plane with doorways across the land. Attempts to rob or kill the shop keeper (a powerful mage) result in the individual being trapped, forever, never finding a way out. The owner switching the doors to ping to a new plane leaving the player alone.
In our game they have found an underground Broker, who will buy unneeded magical items from the characters and who can procure or at the least find the location of a sought after magical item for the party for a decent cost. But he doesn't make something out of nothing, If the characters haven't asked for an Item, he likely won't have it when they arrange the meeting. His connections to the underground make him a force to be reckoned with should he be double-crossed.
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Is it normal for players to be adversarial to the DM?
I've been DM'ing for our group just short of a year now and out of 5 players I have one who is constantly doing what I would call "metagaming" where he reads ahead on rules and character builds so that he can min max (Not really a big problem) but then because he knows the rules he intentionally tries to break them or get away with things hoping I won't catch on. But then if I do Hold to the rules he will pull out some rule that existed in 2E or 4E as to why he should be allowed to basically do what he wants. As a DM I want the game to be fun for all involved and for everyone to play the character they want. But he is the only one constantly trying to play outside the world and narrative I'm trying to build by constantly assuming he gets the best of anything that exists in the game.
For example he wants X, Y and Z magical items cause they will super buff his character. And he gets pissed when the local town trader doesn't have these magical items. (They aren't super rare, they're either uncommon or rare) but my input is that the town trader isn't a vending machine for magical items. it just wouldn't make sense for them to be a Wal-Mart of the magical items in the PHB or DMG.
Or he unlocked Polymorph and immediately tried to turn himself into a T-rex. And I had a problem with that because in this world his character would have no idea or encounters with a T-rex to even know what it was. But he protested saying the T-rex is a beast in the DMG and and that Ploymorph doesn't say he has to have encountered it.
So if it makes sense I feel like a character is being adversarial to me, and I need some advise on managing his expectations without ruining the game for everyone else. the other players like the narrative and the interactions. He just usually wants to rob all the merchants and kill anyone who gets in his way and buy every magical item he likes in the PHB.
A couple of notes:
Some of what you are referring to as “metagaming” most folks would more commonly call “Powergaming/Munchkinism,” “Rules Lawyering,” “Backseat DMing,” and “Murder Hoboing,” which, combined with “metagaming” all culminate in what is known as “Being a Wangrod.” (At least that’s how it is known when we are trying to be polite about it. 🤨) I mention it because they are different issues that affect your role as DM in different ways.
Metagaming is a term usually applied to situations in which a player has their character act on knowledge that the character would not have, but the player does have. For example, the Player knows the stats for a T-Rex from the book, but his character has absolutely no realistic possibility of even knowing what a T-Rex might be or have been on tryout world or any other. That’s “metagaming” through and through.
The player’s min/maxing would not normally be referred to as metagaming, people have other dirty words for that like “powergaming.” Mind you, powergaming in and of itself is not an issue as long as intra-party balance is not thrown out of wack. If everyone at the table is powergaming then it isn’t a problem. Or, if the DM is adept at reading the situation and adjusting for it by granting the other PC‘s boons (like additional feats), or magic items to compensate for the imminent imbalance, then the problem is mitigated. Admittedly that solution comes at the cost of the DM’s time, thought, and effort, but it comes with the job. However, when one player is throwing the whole party balance off kilter, that’s when people use the extra dirty term “munchkinism.”
As to his wanting all of the magic items he’s requesting to complete his “build” for the character, you can point blank tell him that the DMG specifically recommends that DM’s do not have merchants who sell magic items in their campaigns. (In part to specifically preclude crap like your player is trying to pull.) The rules are designed to prevent there being a “Magic Item Wal-Mart.” In fact, the rules for trying to buy and sell magic items are specifically designed to be a pain in the @$$ so that if they really, really stick it out and accept the inevitable “complications” (like getting robbed), then they have genuinely earned that purchase/sale. So you can tell him he should count himself lucky that you are going directly against RAW/RAI by including those merchants at all and if he doesn’t like it then there will no longer be any magic item merchants at all. Period. Fin. End of discussion.
I personally also chose to ignore that recommendation. However I made it a point to mention repeatedly that those merchants (dubbed “brokers”) operate like Pawn/Consignment shops so inventory is guaranteed to be unpredictable and subject to changes without notice. (So far that has successfully prevented that kind of “order placing” behavior like your player is trying to pull, and any potential “being pissed.” And there are no Brokers in small towns, only major towns and cities would have a large enough population of individuals who are wealthy enough to purchase those wares. And even major cities typically only have two fair sized brokers at most, a major town or small city might only have one broker (or none) depending on how many adventures pass through on a regular basis.
When a player actively and openly argues with the DM like your player is doing, that is usually called “rules lawyering.” If that player is a DM for another campaign it sometimes gets called “backseat DMing. (There is a bit more of a difference, but there is also significant overlap in the behaviors.) I mean, if it only happens a little bit and the player ultimately accepts the DM’s ruling (or genuinely helps the DM change their mind) then that’s not really a problem. That’s just a player advocating for their idea, opinion, or point of view which is perfectly normal and understandable. (Heck, I personally wouldn’t even call that “arguing” so much as discussing or perhaps debating.) But if the player keeps on going until the discussion does become actual “arguing” and the player refuses to accept the DM’s decision, that’s a problem.
As to anything he says about any edition of D&D other than this current edition, tell him to blow it out his ear. None of it is relevant anymore from a “rules” standpoint, and even a lot of the lore has shifted significantly between editions.
Robbing merchants and killing anyone who gets in his way is literally the exact definition of a “murder hobo.” That one is really very cut and dry. It is such a prime example of murder hoboing that I added two additional (and wholly unnecessary) sentences so this can technically qualify as a paragraph instead of being a single sentence floating in the middle here all by itself.
Please take note, absolutely none of those behaviors were attributed to “the Character” at all, but instead are problems caused by “the Player.” So you aren’t having any in-game issues with an “adversarial character,” you are having out-of-game problems with the player themself. Even if they switched to a different character, you would still have the same problem because you have a “problem player,” aka a “wangrod.” As my friend BioWizard is fond of saying, “you can’t address an OOG problem with an IG solution. There is no interaction that anything or anyone can have with that character which could possibly help.
Realistically, the only real solution that can have any actual chance of success is to have a conversation with that player, point out what he is doing which is effing up the game for others (like yourself). Then tell him to either stop acting like such a wangrod or you will have to kick him out of the campaign. That conversation will most likely suck for you, and I feel bad for you from a sense of empathy. However, you only have two options:
Remember, as DM you are also a player and your fun matters too, especially considering how darned much work goes into DMing.
Here is a resource you may find useful when preparing yourself to have that hard conversation:
(No joke, that whole series is the best “catch-all” advice I can give any DM for just about any situation.)
I hope some of that helps. (Good luck!)
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Sposta has put it perfectly. This is behavior that is not normal for the game, nor should it be normalized as it takes the fun away from you and everyone else, even if they are too polite to say anything.
Have that talk. Don't tell anyone else about it (and if they say anything about his behavior, just let them know that you'll have a talk and leave it at that), and be gentle but firm that his behavior as a player needs to change. And yes, hard as it is, be fully and 100% completely prepared to remove him from the game if he refuses to change. Speaking from experience, it *will* suck, but ultimately it's the best decision in the long run to make if it comes to it.
If he robs and murders people then there isn't really a reason why anyone would sell him anything. Especially not items that makes it easier for him to rob and mruder people.
Besides that, IamSposta gave some really good advice.
I agree with the others. You need to have a conversation. If he won't stop, it may be time to ask him to leave the table.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
All great advice. Thank you for the input. I guess the conversation will have to happen, while I don't mind him knowing the rules or anyone for that matter as it can help me as a DM, It is a problem when he knows the rules specifically to try and bend/break them. So the convo will happen. I really cant take it anymore as it is also pissing off the other players at the table. Thank you everyone for the responses. Its truly great that there are so many active and responsive people out here to help us run the game.
Best of luck!
all the advice above is spot on, I will say I do have magic item vendors in my world, every major town has at least one and most cities have any number. But they are not chock full of items the party would like, they might have magical trinkets, a music box that plays at sundown every day, or a Crystaline canary in a cage that sings along if someone whistles. They may have 1-2 items from the DMG (either rolled for or on the loot table, or just picked by me) and the odds are these items might be overpriced or already sold and on hold.
However there is another option. You have just 1 magic shop, that shop sits on a separate plane with doorways across the land. Attempts to rob or kill the shop keeper (a powerful mage) result in the individual being trapped, forever, never finding a way out. The owner switching the doors to ping to a new plane leaving the player alone.
In our game they have found an underground Broker, who will buy unneeded magical items from the characters and who can procure or at the least find the location of a sought after magical item for the party for a decent cost. But he doesn't make something out of nothing, If the characters haven't asked for an Item, he likely won't have it when they arrange the meeting. His connections to the underground make him a force to be reckoned with should he be double-crossed.