If you are preparing an encounter and calculating CR, how would you rate an Archer with Sneak Attack, but not multi-attack?
I'm asking because the statblock for NPC Archers is a CR 3 for what looks almost like a 10th level NPC, but the 1d10 damage on this version seems very weak both for the CR 3 monster and for how many hit dice it has. It's also written in such a way as to get "sneak attack" with or without advantage. Curious what other DMs think about the balance of this in terms of game time economy and in terms of the Arch just doing 1d10 damage three times a day.
Simply put, don't worry about CR. It's really useless in encounter planning. If a party have gained magic items, or get particularly bad rolls, or even just choose not to take a long/short rest for ages...CR gets thrown out of the window anyway.
Sure, if you're going by XP then CR will help determine XP payout, but in truth, if you're creating your own enemy you will likely have an instinctive idea of what percentage toward a level up the fight is worth. If you're milestoning then CR is absolutely useless other than as an extremely rough guide.
What you describe though is not too dissimilar to the spy and that's challenge rating 1 and 200xp...with the only real difference being the HP and AC of the Archer are a little higher...so...well as I say CR is to me at least a useless tool.
If you're just taking Archer and adding the sneak attack I'd probably bump it to 3.5 or 4 CR if you're really worried.
There's more to an Archer's CR than the damage that it deals. For more information about how to calculate CR see: Creating Quick Monster Stats and the chapter that it is contained in.
Your suggested change from Multiattack to a singular attack, might reduce the CR to 2. But don't take my word for it, please feel free to confirm this on your own.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
CR does a really bad job, but the vanilla archer manages a base of 17 dpr, and can add 5.5 dpr with archer's eye for 3 rounds, meaning damage over 3 rounds is 22.5 dpr. Reducing it to 1 attack changes it to 14 dpr. Since CR is based on expected damage done and survival time (halving damage output should halve xp value), changing that to CR 2 sounds about right.
I don't have a copy of the DMG, so I can't access the paywall content.
Looking at the Spy and it certainly is more in line with what I"m looking for. However, I would not be using an NPC with that many skills on this occasion. Without most of those skills and a few less hp, would this be reasonably a CR 1/2 challenge?
I don't have a copy of the DMG, so I can't access the paywall content.
Looking at the Spy and it certainly is more in line with what I"m looking for. However, I would not be using an NPC with that many skills on this occasion. Without most of those skills and a few less hp, would this be reasonably a CR 1/2 challenge?
You shouldn't actually need the DMG to view creature stat blocks. If you've got Monster Manual, it might be worth reading through the stat blocks of various enemies listed therein.
You shouldn't actually need the DMG to view creature stat blocks. If you've got Monster Manual, it might be worth reading through the stat blocks of various enemies listed therein.
I was referring to Kaavel's link to "Creating Monster Stat Blocks", which i guess is a part of a chapter in the DMG. Since I don't have one (nor intend to buy one), I'm asking for advice here instead. I did see the Spy. It's available via Basic Rules, so no paywall, thank you for sharing.
To rephrase my earlier question, how much is Sneak Attack worth by itself? Is it worth 1/2 a CR? Or even 1 CR?
Sneak Attack, as a feature, isn't specifically worth anything towards CR. (Edit:) More specifically, the amount of damage per round is part of the calculation, not the fact that the creature has Sneak Attack. The amount of damage that is contributed by the Sneak Attack matters.
Maybe approach this differently. Try grabbing a monster of the CR that you need, and change the attack type to Ranged Weapon, or simply describe the attack as ranged. It doesn't matter if it's not humanoid, reskin the statblock to suit your needs. Saves on recalculating CR.
(Edit:) If you are looking for a CR 1/2 monster, consider using the Scout. You want a CR 1 grab a Ghoul and omit the Damage Immunities and the "If the target is a creature..." stipulation in the claw attack description.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
I don't have a copy of the DMG, so I can't access the paywall content.
Looking at the Spy and it certainly is more in line with what I"m looking for. However, I would not be using an NPC with that many skills on this occasion. Without most of those skills and a few less hp, would this be reasonably a CR 1/2 challenge?
To answer this question, the skills on the spy statblock will not really be contributing to their CR. CR calculations are really combat oriented so it's mostly based on average damage per round, ac, hp, combat oriented offensive/defensive abilities, etc. To drop the Spy to 1/2 CR would probably take hp reduction and taking sneak attack down to 1d6 at least, if CR 1/2 is your target.
CR is essentially calculated by referencing a table that tracks 5 main things: AC, HP, DPR, Attack Mod, Save DC (those last two are really either/or). Yeah, there are some adjustments made for some special traits, but they aren’t huge, more nudges here or there, and often they don’t change anything depending on what those base 5 stats are and where they land on the table.
Looking at that chart…. For the archer, it has a DPR of 22.5, and a +6 attack modifier for an “offensive CR” of 4, and with AC 16 and 75 HP, its “defensive CR” would be 2, which averages out to an overall CR of 3. If you dropped it to 1 attack it would have a DPR of 14, which would drop its “offensive CR” to match its defense at 2.
CR is essentially calculated by referencing a table that tracks 5 main things: AC, HP, DPR, Attack Mod, Save DC (those last two are really either/or). Yeah, there are some adjustments made for some special traits, but they aren’t huge, more nudges here or there, and often they don’t change anything depending on what those base 5 stats are and where they land on the table.
Looking at that chart…. For the archer, it has a DPR of 22.5, and a +6 attack modifier for an “offensive CR” of 4, and with AC 16 and 75 HP, its “defensive CR” would be 2, which averages out to an overall CR of 3. If you dropped it to 1 attack it would have a DPR of 14, which would drop its “offensive CR” to match its defense at 2.
Another related question: the Pseudodragon and the Quasit are PHB creatures used by Warlocks as familiars. Pseudodragon's listed CR is 1/4 while Quasit's is 1. They have the exact same hp, AC, and do almost the same amount of damage. They both have "on hit" Poison abilities. Both have access to flight as well as innate magic resistance.
The main difference I can see is that Quasits are immune to Poison damage and condition, as well as being resistant to several damage types. Quasits also have Invisibility. On the other side, Pseudodragon's main combat advantage is 10 feet blindsight.
Based on this information, damage resistance and immunity may be worth almost a full point of CR. Would that be right?
Multiple damage resistances do raise Defensive CR, but I don’t remember how much, and the difference in damage might be enough to bump the Quasit’s Offensive CR up by 1 level, but I don’t remember the cutoff.
Multiple damage resistances do raise Defensive CR, but I don’t remember how much, and the difference in damage might be enough to bump the Quasit’s Offensive CR up by 1 level, but I don’t remember the cutoff.
So where it gets tricky is, if I look at Swarm of Bats, it has 1 lower AC than Pseudodragon, 3X as many hit points, blindsight 60 feet and immunity to several conditions and resistant to weapon damage. The "to hit" is the same, though no poison ability. It's CR is the same as Pseudodragon, 1/4. Shouldn't Swarm of Bats be at least a CR 1 like the Quasit, since it's much harder to kill than the Pseudodragon?
So where it gets tricky is, if I look at Swarm of Bats, it has 1 lower AC than Pseudodragon, 3X as many hit points, blindsight 60 feet and immunity to several conditions and resistant to weapon damage. The "to hit" is the same, though no poison ability. It's CR is the same as Pseudodragon, 1/4. Shouldn't Swarm of Bats be at least a CR 1 like the Quasit, since it's much harder to kill than the Pseudodragon?
I think they gave the pseudodragon and sprite a massive CR bump for the "fail save by 5 and or immediately unconscious", otherwise the pseudodragon is CR 1/8 and the sprite is CR 0. The quasit should probably be CR 1/4, the imp CR 1/2.
I think they gave the pseudodragon and sprite a massive CR bump for the "fail save by 5 and or immediately unconscious", otherwise the pseudodragon is CR 1/8 and the sprite is CR 0. The quasit should probably be CR 1/4, the imp CR 1/2.
Combat-wise, isn't the Imp basically the same as the Quasit? They have most of the same immunities and abilities outside of the Imp's Devil's Sight. I guess that Imp is 3 hp hardier than the Quasit. Between the slightly higher poison damage of the Imp with no Poisoned condition vs. the Quasit's Poisoned condition attack, isn't it mostly a wash?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
If you are preparing an encounter and calculating CR, how would you rate an Archer with Sneak Attack, but not multi-attack?
I'm asking because the statblock for NPC Archers is a CR 3 for what looks almost like a 10th level NPC, but the 1d10 damage on this version seems very weak both for the CR 3 monster and for how many hit dice it has. It's also written in such a way as to get "sneak attack" with or without advantage. Curious what other DMs think about the balance of this in terms of game time economy and in terms of the Arch just doing 1d10 damage three times a day.
Simply put, don't worry about CR. It's really useless in encounter planning. If a party have gained magic items, or get particularly bad rolls, or even just choose not to take a long/short rest for ages...CR gets thrown out of the window anyway.
Sure, if you're going by XP then CR will help determine XP payout, but in truth, if you're creating your own enemy you will likely have an instinctive idea of what percentage toward a level up the fight is worth. If you're milestoning then CR is absolutely useless other than as an extremely rough guide.
What you describe though is not too dissimilar to the spy and that's challenge rating 1 and 200xp...with the only real difference being the HP and AC of the Archer are a little higher...so...well as I say CR is to me at least a useless tool.
If you're just taking Archer and adding the sneak attack I'd probably bump it to 3.5 or 4 CR if you're really worried.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
There's more to an Archer's CR than the damage that it deals. For more information about how to calculate CR see: Creating Quick Monster Stats and the chapter that it is contained in.
Your suggested change from Multiattack to a singular attack, might reduce the CR to 2. But don't take my word for it, please feel free to confirm this on your own.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
CR does a really bad job, but the vanilla archer manages a base of 17 dpr, and can add 5.5 dpr with archer's eye for 3 rounds, meaning damage over 3 rounds is 22.5 dpr. Reducing it to 1 attack changes it to 14 dpr. Since CR is based on expected damage done and survival time (halving damage output should halve xp value), changing that to CR 2 sounds about right.
I don't have a copy of the DMG, so I can't access the paywall content.
Looking at the Spy and it certainly is more in line with what I"m looking for. However, I would not be using an NPC with that many skills on this occasion. Without most of those skills and a few less hp, would this be reasonably a CR 1/2 challenge?
You shouldn't actually need the DMG to view creature stat blocks. If you've got Monster Manual, it might be worth reading through the stat blocks of various enemies listed therein.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests - 'Better' Player Character Injury Tables?
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Something I've found useful is the summary of typical monster stats at https://www.blogofholding.com/?p=7338.
I was referring to Kaavel's link to "Creating Monster Stat Blocks", which i guess is a part of a chapter in the DMG. Since I don't have one (nor intend to buy one), I'm asking for advice here instead. I did see the Spy. It's available via Basic Rules, so no paywall, thank you for sharing.
To rephrase my earlier question, how much is Sneak Attack worth by itself? Is it worth 1/2 a CR? Or even 1 CR?
Sneak Attack, as a feature, isn't specifically worth anything towards CR. (Edit:) More specifically, the amount of damage per round is part of the calculation, not the fact that the creature has Sneak Attack. The amount of damage that is contributed by the Sneak Attack matters.
Maybe approach this differently. Try grabbing a monster of the CR that you need, and change the attack type to Ranged Weapon, or simply describe the attack as ranged. It doesn't matter if it's not humanoid, reskin the statblock to suit your needs. Saves on recalculating CR.
(Edit:) If you are looking for a CR 1/2 monster, consider using the Scout. You want a CR 1 grab a Ghoul and omit the Damage Immunities and the "If the target is a creature..." stipulation in the claw attack description.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.” - Mark Twain - Innocents Abroad
To answer this question, the skills on the spy statblock will not really be contributing to their CR. CR calculations are really combat oriented so it's mostly based on average damage per round, ac, hp, combat oriented offensive/defensive abilities, etc. To drop the Spy to 1/2 CR would probably take hp reduction and taking sneak attack down to 1d6 at least, if CR 1/2 is your target.
Thank you.
CR is essentially calculated by referencing a table that tracks 5 main things: AC, HP, DPR, Attack Mod, Save DC (those last two are really either/or). Yeah, there are some adjustments made for some special traits, but they aren’t huge, more nudges here or there, and often they don’t change anything depending on what those base 5 stats are and where they land on the table.
Looking at that chart…. For the archer, it has a DPR of 22.5, and a +6 attack modifier for an “offensive CR” of 4, and with AC 16 and 75 HP, its “defensive CR” would be 2, which averages out to an overall CR of 3. If you dropped it to 1 attack it would have a DPR of 14, which would drop its “offensive CR” to match its defense at 2.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
Thanks
Another related question: the Pseudodragon and the Quasit are PHB creatures used by Warlocks as familiars. Pseudodragon's listed CR is 1/4 while Quasit's is 1. They have the exact same hp, AC, and do almost the same amount of damage. They both have "on hit" Poison abilities. Both have access to flight as well as innate magic resistance.
The main difference I can see is that Quasits are immune to Poison damage and condition, as well as being resistant to several damage types. Quasits also have Invisibility. On the other side, Pseudodragon's main combat advantage is 10 feet blindsight.
Based on this information, damage resistance and immunity may be worth almost a full point of CR. Would that be right?
Multiple damage resistances do raise Defensive CR, but I don’t remember how much, and the difference in damage might be enough to bump the Quasit’s Offensive CR up by 1 level, but I don’t remember the cutoff.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
It's treated as a bonus to effective hit points.
So where it gets tricky is, if I look at Swarm of Bats, it has 1 lower AC than Pseudodragon, 3X as many hit points, blindsight 60 feet and immunity to several conditions and resistant to weapon damage. The "to hit" is the same, though no poison ability. It's CR is the same as Pseudodragon, 1/4. Shouldn't Swarm of Bats be at least a CR 1 like the Quasit, since it's much harder to kill than the Pseudodragon?
This is why people told you CR is whacked.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
DDB Buyers' Guide
Hardcovers, DDB & You
Content Troubleshooting
I think they gave the pseudodragon and sprite a massive CR bump for the "fail save by 5 and or immediately unconscious", otherwise the pseudodragon is CR 1/8 and the sprite is CR 0. The quasit should probably be CR 1/4, the imp CR 1/2.
Combat-wise, isn't the Imp basically the same as the Quasit? They have most of the same immunities and abilities outside of the Imp's Devil's Sight. I guess that Imp is 3 hp hardier than the Quasit. Between the slightly higher poison damage of the Imp with no Poisoned condition vs. the Quasit's Poisoned condition attack, isn't it mostly a wash?