Currently, my Pcs are roaming a landscape filled with fey creatures and are trying to hunt down the BBEG of the campaign (so far). This guy is CR 30 and they are a group of seven Level 11 adventurers with two Level 11 Npcs. They are not ready. This is a time sensitive mission. How can I delay them? Should i send them to the Feywild or throw random encounters at them to slow them down?
If a party of seven level 11’s (plus 2 level 11 NPC’s) can beat a CR 30 Monster of any kind, that betrays a real problem with the base system that the DM should fix. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Pantagruel666, more that I believe it’s a real system problem in 5e. A level *20* Party should have a problem with a CR 30. From the Monster Manual: “Some monsters present a greater challenge than even a typical 20th-level party can handle. These monsters have a challenge rating of 21 or higher and are specifically designed to test player skill.” If this is a BBEG, I also assume it’s Legendary, has a Lair, and preferably is built to be fought in phases alongside the better variants of Mythic Monsters. Probably with a bunch of minions that can barely - but are just able to - hurt the party, provide advantage via flanking, and/or be destroyed for a death burst or give minimal healing to the Boss on death.
In regards your question OP, I feel we need some more information. What level did *you* anticipate the Party facing off with the BBEG? What mission or quest are they supposed to be on right now, either that you had set them up for or by your opinion? What exactly is a time sensitive mission, are you talking about hunting down the BBEG or something else?
Optionally, you can always use the “Fail Forward” approach. Let them reach the enemy (though preferably throwing warnings at them about what I assume are the nigh suicidal risks attached with just barreling straight ahead), and - without forcing the results - let the stat block bury them. Some or all of them could be taken alive as prisoner, with a chance to escape later (NEVER do this twice). Maybe some of them are left alive but near death in a hostile landscape, only to be found by a friendly hermit that drags them home and heals them up. They might lose some of their magic items in the process.
The party is currently in the Kingdom of Annularis which has all but fallen to an undead invasion that took over the kingdom. Before the undead could take control of the final bastion of life in this kingdom (the capital, Atolla), a recently released quasi-deity (light domain god) decided to enclose the city in an enhanced hallow. This unfortunately trapped the god and a previous party member that lived in that city. Later on, the party received a message via sending that the god that they recently released was trapped and since the party owed the god a favor for saving their party member, the god demanded that they help him free himself. As such, the original quest was to help free the god from his self-made prison by remove the undead threat that is the reason for its creation.
If I had just left it at that, this would be a simple quest; however, the party was then given a vision of an eclipse and heard the voice of a hated NPC, Balder Davorka, who appears to defeat this god and kill their party member in the future. The party has 7 days until this prophecy occurs. I believe that they can only stop Balder from killing their party member since he is more focused on the god; however, they want to stop the god's death as well. If they fight Balder, he will make them unable to fight him and he'll be focusing on their revivify casters if they still choose to stay.
So, if they choose to save their party member, they have a great fight against Balder's minions; however, the god dies leading to Balder becoming more powerful (he is only CR 30 because of artifacts that he doesn't want to have). If they choose to save the god, the god might live; however, five party members will die. Also, if they don't figure out that the Barbarian is charmed, then seeking the god may result in a TPK.
Because of that, I need a way for either the god to convince the party to not help him in the fight and instead work on saving the citizens or I need a way to delay the party since they are 6.25 days away (when using wind walk). I don't want them to try and save the god. What I do want is for them to try and save their party member. In that route, they get some form of a win. I just don't know what I should make the god say to convince the bard of the party to not help the god.
If a party of seven level 11’s (plus 2 level 11 NPC’s) can beat a CR 30 Monster of any kind, that betrays a real problem with the base system that the DM should fix. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Pantagruel666, more that I believe it’s a real system problem in 5e.
It's a combination of 5e level scaling being pretty dubious, and that being a very large party.
Oh for sure, action economy is always going to be an issue. Hence the need for Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, and a cycling mob of minions. Probably some good hit and run tactics too.
I tried to get rid of one of the Npcs when they were storming the undead HQ; however, the divination wizard decided to create 34 skeletons before the arc. Now, there are at least only 17. Although, she can get them back easily with animate dead. I need a way to decrease their action economy.
I tried to get rid of one of the Npcs when they were storming the undead HQ; however, the divination wizard decided to create 34 skeletons before the arc. Now, there are at least only 17. Although, she can get them back easily with animate dead. I need a way to decrease their action economy.
In general the solution to create undead spam is large area damage. I suggest softening the party up with a tsunami. It should be survivable, 6d10 won't instakill a level 11 (it does 21d10 over its full duration, which is likely lethal, but there are a lot of countermeasures available), but all the chaff is gone. It may also convince them to back off.
They can fight the bbeg and realize they're in over their heads. If you try to force their hands and make them stop without them realizing this on their own, either they'll think you're trying to derail them because they actually have a shot, or they might feel railroaded.
Instead, a better solution than preventing them from finding the bbeg is to *let* them find them, and allow it so the end result isn't automatically a total party kill.
The bbeg doesn't have to kill them. Maybe the bbeg is busy, and will entertain the player characters' challenge for one minute, but then they really must be going to a meeting they have scheduled with the moon (you know how fey be), OR maybe the bbeg fights them out of curiosity, but upon seeing they're not a real threat, the bbeg loses interest in them and leaves them unconscious (unless a particular party member truly pisses them off then that one dies), giving the surviving players something to train and aspire to. Maybe I've been watching too much HunterxHunter, but the classic anime formula of "hero fights bad guy, hero gets beat bad, hero trains real hard, hero beats bad guy" could serve you as a better solution.
1) You could emphasize to the characters that if they don't act to save the citizens (and their party member) then the battle between the party and Balder or between the god and Balder will likely kill all the citizens - the effects Balder uses might suck the souls out of the vast majority of the citizens. Emphasize that the god does not have the power to bring the citizens back. If the party still chooses to fight Balder then they are sacrificing thousands of innocents - for the right party this is sufficient motivation. Whatever effect Balder uses should make it impossible to resurrect the affected creatures.
2) You could let the scenario play out. Make sure that the effects Balder uses are so powerful that party members are immediately threatened so that they know very quickly that they are out of their depth. At this point the party could choose to sacrifice themselves to save the god but the god won't let that happen. The god intervenes, speaking into their minds that they won't allow this sacrifice then perhaps banishing the party to another plane in a blinding flash of light. The party is gone and the battle is long over by the time the party has any chance to return to the city. The god can save the other character they were intended to rescue at the same time.
Well you could tell them the bbeg would squash them like dog duty under a car tire.
If they don't listen to you then it is a learning experience.
You could humble them as well before they get to far. Throw something less cr at them and take them down a notch. Let them know that they can buy the big boy pants but the cannot wear them.
The homebrew CR 30 creature that I am using technically is CR 26 in its statblock. However, the artifacts that it holds boosts its effective CR to 30. Since that is only because of the artifacts, I'm not increasing his proficiency bonus to +9.
Premature BBEG encounters are a great opportunity IMO, and happens all the time in books and movies. Taunt them, beat them, do stuff to make them hate the BBEG even more.
You don't even need to have a combat if you don't want to. This kind of thing can just be a "cutscene" where the PC attacks and the BBEG just catches the sword with his bare hand and then bats it aside. Monologue as you effortlessly knock aside attacks and then disappear in a puff of smoke as your maniacal laughter slowly fades out.
Currently, my Pcs are roaming a landscape filled with fey creatures and are trying to hunt down the BBEG of the campaign (so far). This guy is CR 30 and they are a group of seven Level 11 adventurers with two Level 11 Npcs. They are not ready. This is a time sensitive mission. How can I delay them? Should i send them to the Feywild or throw random encounters at them to slow them down?
I'm by no means convinced that a party that large and high level can't beat a CR 30, though it depends on the particular creature.
If a party of seven level 11’s (plus 2 level 11 NPC’s) can beat a CR 30 Monster of any kind, that betrays a real problem with the base system that the DM should fix. I’m not saying you’re wrong, Pantagruel666, more that I believe it’s a real system problem in 5e. A level *20* Party should have a problem with a CR 30. From the Monster Manual: “Some monsters present a greater challenge than even a typical 20th-level party can handle. These monsters have a challenge rating of 21 or higher and are specifically designed to test player skill.” If this is a BBEG, I also assume it’s Legendary, has a Lair, and preferably is built to be fought in phases alongside the better variants of Mythic Monsters. Probably with a bunch of minions that can barely - but are just able to - hurt the party, provide advantage via flanking, and/or be destroyed for a death burst or give minimal healing to the Boss on death.
In regards your question OP, I feel we need some more information. What level did *you* anticipate the Party facing off with the BBEG? What mission or quest are they supposed to be on right now, either that you had set them up for or by your opinion? What exactly is a time sensitive mission, are you talking about hunting down the BBEG or something else?
Optionally, you can always use the “Fail Forward” approach. Let them reach the enemy (though preferably throwing warnings at them about what I assume are the nigh suicidal risks attached with just barreling straight ahead), and - without forcing the results - let the stat block bury them. Some or all of them could be taken alive as prisoner, with a chance to escape later (NEVER do this twice). Maybe some of them are left alive but near death in a hostile landscape, only to be found by a friendly hermit that drags them home and heals them up. They might lose some of their magic items in the process.
The party is currently in the Kingdom of Annularis which has all but fallen to an undead invasion that took over the kingdom. Before the undead could take control of the final bastion of life in this kingdom (the capital, Atolla), a recently released quasi-deity (light domain god) decided to enclose the city in an enhanced hallow. This unfortunately trapped the god and a previous party member that lived in that city. Later on, the party received a message via sending that the god that they recently released was trapped and since the party owed the god a favor for saving their party member, the god demanded that they help him free himself. As such, the original quest was to help free the god from his self-made prison by remove the undead threat that is the reason for its creation.
If I had just left it at that, this would be a simple quest; however, the party was then given a vision of an eclipse and heard the voice of a hated NPC, Balder Davorka, who appears to defeat this god and kill their party member in the future. The party has 7 days until this prophecy occurs. I believe that they can only stop Balder from killing their party member since he is more focused on the god; however, they want to stop the god's death as well. If they fight Balder, he will make them unable to fight him and he'll be focusing on their revivify casters if they still choose to stay.
So, if they choose to save their party member, they have a great fight against Balder's minions; however, the god dies leading to Balder becoming more powerful (he is only CR 30 because of artifacts that he doesn't want to have). If they choose to save the god, the god might live; however, five party members will die. Also, if they don't figure out that the Barbarian is charmed, then seeking the god may result in a TPK.
Because of that, I need a way for either the god to convince the party to not help him in the fight and instead work on saving the citizens or I need a way to delay the party since they are 6.25 days away (when using wind walk). I don't want them to try and save the god. What I do want is for them to try and save their party member. In that route, they get some form of a win. I just don't know what I should make the god say to convince the bard of the party to not help the god.
Do you all have any ideas?
let them continue in their way. Just bring a stack of blank character sheets and lay a stack of d6 on top of them.
It's a combination of 5e level scaling being pretty dubious, and that being a very large party.
Oh for sure, action economy is always going to be an issue. Hence the need for Legendary Actions, Lair Actions, and a cycling mob of minions. Probably some good hit and run tactics too.
I tried to get rid of one of the Npcs when they were storming the undead HQ; however, the divination wizard decided to create 34 skeletons before the arc. Now, there are at least only 17. Although, she can get them back easily with animate dead. I need a way to decrease their action economy.
In general the solution to create undead spam is large area damage. I suggest softening the party up with a tsunami. It should be survivable, 6d10 won't instakill a level 11 (it does 21d10 over its full duration, which is likely lethal, but there are a lot of countermeasures available), but all the chaff is gone. It may also convince them to back off.
Do this. Time to either spank them or make them.
Enjoy your slop. I'll be enjoying good products elsewhere.
They can fight the bbeg and realize they're in over their heads. If you try to force their hands and make them stop without them realizing this on their own, either they'll think you're trying to derail them because they actually have a shot, or they might feel railroaded.
Instead, a better solution than preventing them from finding the bbeg is to *let* them find them, and allow it so the end result isn't automatically a total party kill.
The bbeg doesn't have to kill them. Maybe the bbeg is busy, and will entertain the player characters' challenge for one minute, but then they really must be going to a meeting they have scheduled with the moon (you know how fey be), OR maybe the bbeg fights them out of curiosity, but upon seeing they're not a real threat, the bbeg loses interest in them and leaves them unconscious (unless a particular party member truly pisses them off then that one dies), giving the surviving players something to train and aspire to. Maybe I've been watching too much HunterxHunter, but the classic anime formula of "hero fights bad guy, hero gets beat bad, hero trains real hard, hero beats bad guy" could serve you as a better solution.
Several options ...
1) You could emphasize to the characters that if they don't act to save the citizens (and their party member) then the battle between the party and Balder or between the god and Balder will likely kill all the citizens - the effects Balder uses might suck the souls out of the vast majority of the citizens. Emphasize that the god does not have the power to bring the citizens back. If the party still chooses to fight Balder then they are sacrificing thousands of innocents - for the right party this is sufficient motivation. Whatever effect Balder uses should make it impossible to resurrect the affected creatures.
2) You could let the scenario play out. Make sure that the effects Balder uses are so powerful that party members are immediately threatened so that they know very quickly that they are out of their depth. At this point the party could choose to sacrifice themselves to save the god but the god won't let that happen. The god intervenes, speaking into their minds that they won't allow this sacrifice then perhaps banishing the party to another plane in a blinding flash of light. The party is gone and the battle is long over by the time the party has any chance to return to the city. The god can save the other character they were intended to rescue at the same time.
There are lots of other possibilities.
Well you could tell them the bbeg would squash them like dog duty under a car tire.
If they don't listen to you then it is a learning experience.
You could humble them as well before they get to far. Throw something less cr at them and take them down a notch. Let them know that they can buy the big boy pants but the cannot wear them.
Out of curiosity which of the CR 30's are using
The homebrew CR 30 creature that I am using technically is CR 26 in its statblock. However, the artifacts that it holds boosts its effective CR to 30. Since that is only because of the artifacts, I'm not increasing his proficiency bonus to +9.
Premature BBEG encounters are a great opportunity IMO, and happens all the time in books and movies. Taunt them, beat them, do stuff to make them hate the BBEG even more.
You don't even need to have a combat if you don't want to. This kind of thing can just be a "cutscene" where the PC attacks and the BBEG just catches the sword with his bare hand and then bats it aside. Monologue as you effortlessly knock aside attacks and then disappear in a puff of smoke as your maniacal laughter slowly fades out.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm